jbroganjr

Never questioned your intent, just your delivery. If you are dropping down to a level of "baiting", are you no different then folks that do not follow the program? "Let he with no sin, cast the first stone" I respectively point out that you are jumping and judging a person unprovoked in this thread. Pointing out the invalidation of a person argument is helpful, but i think you have veered into a personality conflict with some folks, i.e. evmori. He may or may not be right, there is only the postings, we do not have face and observation in action. I fully understand citing chapter and verse. It is a welcome breath of air to some arguments. But as I read the posts, I see an extemism at times that is applied to the minutia or small problems that become overblown. While the argument, for either side, whether uniforms, NSP etc are valid. I do believe that they have become overblown between evmori and yourself. In reading some of your other posts, there was a bit of vindictivenes (my opinion) on another poster, to the extreme of contacting scouter to find out that persons ISP address. One thing that scouting teaches is that there are many different ways and approaches to achieve the aims and means of scouting. If you take offense to my pointing out what I percieve as unscouting like behavior, that is your problem. As to a published manual about treating other people and judgement, I would refer you to the Bible. i do not think you need it, as I do believe your motivation is to be helpful and to provide the references to specific published manuals. I am not judging evmoris program, nor am I saying that yours in the standard to behold. I am only pointing out that you have become personal in your attacks. Your posts suggests that anyone not following the BSA program as interpreted by Bob White should be thrown out of the program. I believe that the program is inherently designed to be adaptable to diverse culture that it serves. Sometimes it is better to be kind, than right.

Dsteele, great suggestion about the bank. Who makes the rules - in our troop the plc and they have a rule about electronic stuff. and their rule is that the rule is determined by the outing. As for cell phones, the older boys have a problem with the younger/new scouts. Why, the experience factor of homesickness. The older boys realize it is easier for the scouts not to have complete and total access. On a side note here, to Bob White. A scout is courteous, kind and cheerful. Scouting is a brotherhood, composed of dedicated people, even folks like evmori. While I do not always agree with him, I also do not always agree with you BW either. Your Sanctimonious and Hyper Critical and sarcastic ways are not scoutlike nor very christian. It is easy to hide behind rules and regulations, and it is my hope that folks who have a diverse opinion are not scared off of this post by Mr. I am always right. It comes across as cheap and petty

BW I am replying to the devil's advocate, as I know it is addressed at mysefl in particular, as it is my post and use of those words that prompted this thread. First off, RT, which is my primary job. Part of RT's job is provide additional training and modeling of behavior. Actually, I think that done right, Devil's advocate works well at a RT discussion. It is a method to stand wrongness or myths on their head. An example in use. When presenting recruitment ideas. My flip chart contains some funny or abnormal thoughts, like the first one - "Recruitment....we're against it" Another approach is dispelling myths. Or FOS is solely to provide more income to the Scout Executive. Both of these are followed up by statements that come directly from BSA, in order to dispell the "myths" and misconceptions. Devil's Advocate, is not promoting wrong behavior, but shining a light on the wrongheadness of a position or theory. It is naming the elephant in the room. To do this right, the follow up discussion has to be forthright, cite BSA reference materials. Printed or emailed resources is integral in getting the right message out. Why do I do it this way? First, don't assume this is a weekly or monthly thing, Two, having gotten to know my district, I found that just broaching the topic in the "regular" manner produced two reactions. One, the audience would just argue til the cows came home, or Two, the rest of the group shut down mentally. By presenting things as "I am on your side at first, but I have acouple of questions about your conclusion... then following up with the cited resources makes for a more lasting impression. I'd rather have a scouter, who was convinced he was right (i.e. a SM playing oldest SPL in the world, or a cub scouter spouting all sorts of rules and regs. that are made up, acting like a BSA gestapo) leave my presentation either realizing they where wrong or at the least, that I have planted a seed of doubt in their minds. To do this correctly takes a lot of time. Finding and citing the BSA policy, at times, is time consuming, brainstorming with my staff on potential answers, reactions etc takes most of the time, plus the positive follow ups, and resource material. We normally plan out two months to present this type of presentation. Now, I would agree that this approach would not work in NLE. In specifics, I would rather see a "Deputy Discussion" that is used tween modules. [we're in jersey, put on a couple of cowboy hats and stand on a milk crate really gets the trainees involved.] Scouting is about making ethical decisions, to help develop a moral compass. If follow the aims and means of scouting, the mission statement, the oath and law (whether cub, boyscout, venture, etc) is the guiding principle of the trainer, and the methods employed spark fun, interest, empower, etc. then I have done my job.

Bob White do you have supply number on that video. Look it up on scoutstuff but could not find it. tx j

I think the tenure requirement of 3-6 years is the way to go. The mention of patches and job ownership is novel, but a bit heavy handed, yet the further explanation of the motive sheds some more light on the situation. This is a great RT discussion, for sure, but I wonder how many folks will feel umbrage at talking about this. In the cub program, it is a reality that the leadership of the unit is constantly changing, but not as much in the boy scout program. As for commissioners, I imagine that part of the problem may be need, as per the commissioners newsletter, it is stated that just about all districts are shorthand with commissioners. One suggestion is the "contract", a document with job responsibilities laid out that could be signed or "re-upped" every year, after the yearly business meeting and implementation of nominating committee business (i have probably misworded this process). This is not to add a requirement, but to reinforce what needs to be done. A job in name only,only hurts the program. We have not done this contract thing in our district, it is common that a job is to be done for at least one year, no more than five, and the nominating committee really keeps this in mind. The tenure also helps in another way, besides "anchors" and "jobs in name only", it also helps in preventing burnout of that super scouter who takes on as much, or more than he can handle. It sets a patch upon which that person can build or set scouting goals over the long term. I find the one year committment, personally, a positive recruiting tool for key positions. When I encounter folks who shy away from it, but still want to help, we find jobs that are event specific, i.e. district awards dinner or summer camp promotion, in effect, we have found assistants for key staff members.

I have always believed in treated the boys like the mature people they are, especially at summer camp. As to calling home, I only ask that the boys let me know if they are or have called home from camp. I even show them the phone at the camp. {including correcting the camp director who told the troop that the pay phones are broken at camp...I don't believe in lying to the kids, we go to another camp now) The dilema: Last years cross overs seem to be a bit on the immature level, and the homesickness was at a level I'd never seen before (been going to camp for years). I discovered two things. One, the boys where calling home with parent supplied phone cards and Two they where not informing adult or boy leaders of these endeavors. I do not want to go backwards in the way I approach the boys, I feel that it would be an effort to lose respect, not earn it, but, the phone cards cannot go. Does this in your mind fall under electronic gadget arguments. And yes, each year the troop ASMs prepare a parents survival kit for camp and it goes many things, including the telephone thing. That no news is good news. Packet comes complete with camp phone #, a leaders cell phone (and are told that if it is my phone #, I will not be returning calls except emergency, and if that is the case, call the camp. I leave my phone in the truck. My phone, they are told, is there for important matters, like ordering pizza if it has been raining for days!) Thoughts on dealing with this phone card mess are appreciated.

Tried that twice, it only increased homesickness. In fact, boys that had gotten over the mid week hump crashed and burn on the last day of camp when letters from home arrived... Those two boys ended up quiting scouts... why...reason given...camp was toohard...interpretation...to emotionally hard.

Our district chair once or twice a year lets all the SM at RT know a compliation of answers to one question that is asked What would you change about scouting The number one answer is (drum roll please) "less adult involvement" which is a common thought on this forum. Maybe this is a thought that should be shared in more districts?

A couple of questions Does this process happen with every eagle scout in your unit? or is this a matter of "We'll make sure he earns it!" And if this the way this unit thinks Eagle SM Conferences are, are they pulling this nonsense w/ Stars and Life? Ultimately, though, this is wrong, and should not be tolerated. It is just so wrong, after a young man has gone through the hard work, planning and completion of an eagle project to have the end process tainted. Even, you, jyoklavich, made such a telling statement "I am on a polictical tight rope, with my Son Eagle rank at risk, and knowing what is right and wrong" An environment like your situation is not scouting. I wish you luck, not only in your son achieving his eagle (Good guys win in scouting, keep the faith) but also in changing this wronghead attitude for the next boy up for eagle.

Oooops, I see BW has already cited the correct manual.

jkoklavich Let me add some comfort to you concerning the SM and Eagle BoR. YOU CAN always appeal this decision. The process is listed in the publication concerning advancement, I do not have it here to cite the exact name and number, Bob White will hopefully bail me out and supply the information. Have you talked to the District Advancement Chair about this situation? If all goes completely wrong with the unit, it is up to the district Adv. Chair to process this. I believe he is the path with which you appeal, again I don't have the manual in front of me, so please refer to the official publication, which also contains how BoR are to be conducted. [For a fact, I know that SM and ASM are not involved with this at all!] I also do not think this is "the sky is falling" but a friendly call to your D.E. and U.C. may be in order here. The U.C. (unit commissioner) one role is unit doctor and maybe having an outside level head in the picture may bring some focus back to this process. Would it be out of line to conduct a "Trail to Scoutmaster" test with your unit ;-} You could use all those myths in the other thread as a test of "earning" the SM patch. Good Luck, don't forget, there is always an appeal. But work quick if your son is pushing the 18 year mark.

ASM514 Give a guy a break, I thought that my last post was actually the most positive one yet on woodbadge. I am not indicted WB, but in honesty, I am not hesitant to tell my story. I realize that this is my story, my side my version etc. "jbroganjr, like I said before, I know a lot of WB's that do not deserve the honor because they mised the training in the biginning, or just never got the program. What did you learn in NLE, ODLS training that made you decide to take WB? Did you take NLE, or ODLS?" Why did I take WB - to seek out new life and new adventure, to boldly go where no one has gone before...ooops wrong forum. At the suggestion of some close scouters who had taken the old course (and sound as enthusiastic as you did...must have been a great course, the old one), to seek and learn different ways of coaching and mentoring and presenting,etc. I try to live each day with the goals of learning something new. Maybe your program was lacking. I am sorry for that. But, a vacation? Best time I have ever spent, and never have I injoyed my time more than in my WB training. I would do it again if I could. I think maybe you are looking at what YOU got out of it and YOUR pleasure, instead of what you could learn and pass to our youth. As to what I got out of it, the first order for a happy soul is for the soul to happy with ones self. My story w/WB - run by a cult of personality, folks who glorified hazing and the fact that there was no "adult protection", folks who went beyond the "confusion" training module, the "i've got a secret folks" who cannot or would not desiminate information. The same folks who never missed an opportunity to chide or dismiss the attendees. The same folks who never did get that cheerful, kind, brave nor reverent part of the law. If this it your idea of fun, they are running this course again this fall with the same 3 guys in the top places, they just rotated a spot, want me to send you the invitation? WB has installed in me a new drive to recruit and lead new leaders into the training. Every new adult I recruit to take NLE, or ODLS, I attend with them. During this training, I promote WB with all my heart. It has to be. You must see that WB is the future of our program by educataing our leaders. WB served to beat the compassion out of me and left me a bitter taste. However, I know that the program that I love is not the same program that put on my woodbadge course, that it had been corrupted. AS for my positive post, I see things in the course that are beneficial and helpful. I have never said don't go to woodbadge, but I would suggest taking it somewhere else. There are many folks in my district who took the new WB out of council and rave about it. That is where I direct folks to go. In Indiana, they are running "White Stag" JLTC. It is the same course as the old WB with a 6 day program. My son is attending next year and we live in Maryland. We HAVE to share this training in order for BSA to survive. I feel that is carved in granite. The white stag sounds cool. Now, how about being a good scouter, and you walk in my shoes in woodbadge and I in yours...I know I;ll get the better deal. And as a last line on this subject, I do like this program, I do like the training, I love to see young men realize their potential and develop life skills learned in scouting. I believe scouting is fun with a purpose. And in this great country of ours, you are allowed to complain when the goods received are not the goods promised. WB promised things that it did not honor. My dissatisfaction is not a wholesale denigration of the entire program, but it is my right, my view, etc. I do not post to spread discord, and I find it ironic (not pointing fingers at ASM514) that as soon as a diverse opinion as mine is posted, leverage or acknowledgement of that diversity is quantified by the posters own view. Am I not entitled to that right also?

A good friend of mine pointed out that scouting is it for some kids...they just aren't going to make it on a sports team etc. I think that to be active is to be active and to quantify that participation may be the bane of many a scoutmaster as each case will be different. We do not want to lose the future Hank Aarons of the world but neither do we want to lose the kids for whom "scouting is it" if we bend so far or at all for busy kids. One interesting guideline mentioned in these threads is about how kids learn about teamwork and discipline with sports, the same applies for scouting and so busy kids will take longer. The Bane of this is how busy our younger kids are...and how it derails 1st class 1st year ideals. Yeah you can make 1st class in a year, but not when you are involved with everything else. Be active for Star: - Be a Guide teach scout skills, help plan outings, be the asst to life and eagle scouts and the entire plc in implementing the program. Be active includes setting an example in dress, speach and action. Be there at outings Life - ability to be a JASM, Instructor, guideetc. Ability to come up with and be active in planning the outings the PLC comes up with. plus everything in star. I.E. Life scouts in our troop also plan and execute fund raising projects like a spaghetti dinner. Eagle - all of the above, serve as JASM, help recruit new scouts, coordinate and address problems between patrols, troop and adults. ASM in training essentially.

Great topic Bob. Here are some thoughts that were sent to me years ago. We rely on the SM, ASM, BoR interviews to assemble a "picture" of how busy a scout is. The SM and advancement chair try to work with a scout who may not be available during part of the year because of other involvements. These kids are busy nowadays and knowing their situation(s) only helps in setting them up for success. Star For Star rank, you have to serve in a troop leadership position. Did you serve well and help out the troop, or did you miss meetings, show up unprepared, not get things done, etc.? Are you starting to show the kind of leadership a field rank scout should show? Do you help organize other scouts to get things done at campouts (like put up dining flies, set up capture-the-flag, etc.)? Do you watch out for other scouts and make sure they're doing OK - on the trail, in camp, etc.? Can you be relied on to finish what you start? Are you always ready to assist and be helpful when you see something that needs doing, or do you just "hang out" with your buddies? Life As a troop leader, do you actively take up leadership when you see something that needs doing? Can you organize & coordinate other scouts of all ages (without yelling)? Are you a major player in the "behind-the-scenes" work that makes the troop run - organizing equipment, making camping arrangements, setting up activities for the PLC? Are you a good, patient teacher and example to younger scouts? Are you involved in your school or in the community as a volunteer? Eagle Do you participate actively in all troop activities? Do all the adults and scouts treat you almost as if you were another scoutmaster? Are you involved in your school and community as a leader?

www.kudu.net or www.kudu.org, one of those should work

I may be wrong on this, I do not have all the literature in front of me, but, the SM or his designee, are the folks that "present" the JLT. That said, it is an added benefit to have the senior boys involved. I believe it is set up this way so that the training follows the program and that adults help guide the follow up discussions of each training module. There is a new version of troop JLT out there (actually it is 2 yr. old) with a video and syllabus. If you haven't done one in a while, this training stuff is good. (Year after year, though, the boys catch on and try to give "right" answers) One suggestion, contact the SM or SPL of the council JLT and see if they can offer help or insight. Another link www.kudu.net (I think it is .net or .org) and look up the Green Bar Patrol. It may be dated, so be aware of that, but the overall tenet presented, in my opinion, is a great way of instituting a boy run troop/patrol

I agree with the principle of the description, but in reality if there are a 1,000 volunteer jobs, there is normally 333 people wearing three hats. Which brings up another thought, which I would think every district will find beneficial...where to locate volunteers for the commissioner jobs. We go over the "Eagle" list, try to get "outside" help, especially with the district fundraising, but commissioners can be hard to come by. Also dsteele, never thought about getting the mailings and "special" stuff in scouting... a great point and added benefit.

kwc57 Yeah, that's the course It is not sold as a "Elite" but "Premiere" scout training. I was excited to go and left very disappointed (see other thread) WB is very organized, very time consuming (vacation will never be compared to WB, it is a lot of work), etc. As for the secrecy thing, Eliminate it. A better course description could be made out for distribution. Even knowing what the syllabus is, should not detract from an optimally presented woodbadge. As for each course being different that is because each course has a change of staff and new attendees. Each course has to have 1/3 new staff (Correct me if I am wrong), You can only serve as a course SM once, (does that apply to any other positions, like course advisor, SPL etc?). All training courses are different experiences depending on the trainor/trainee, it is a topic that gives rise to many threads in this forum concerning methods of presenting.

You can file this under useless information. but my field and experience is in graphic design and publishing so here is the "stuff happens" One, As with all book projects of this nature, there are many many people involved and no matter how stringent the deadline, there are always "ooops" missed that (insert here ) section, mispelling, oh boy they might be offended including and up to "wow, the finished project doesn't look anything like the stated goal, let's start over" Two, this process will start all over again, once the "finished" graphic artwork is sent back. Three, the lawyers now get a say...add more time Four, the print industry isn't what it used to be. In the last 10 years, for example there has been a reduction in the Northern Hemishere of about 25-30% paper mill production. Add on top of that the Just in Time management style of the print facilities and trouble is brewing. How, Let's say, the finished the artwork is all ready, until someone finds a glaring error and the work has to be redone, well the print schedule went out the window. The companies that produce books on the volume mentioned here (The paper To print that many books would come close to filling about 500,000 sq ft, unprinted) run 24/7 so if you miss your production window, the presses aren't standing around waiting, so rescheduling takes place. Mistakes still happen here and changes still occur after printing but before bindery, so an entire job can be held up a week or so, while a signature is reprinted for insertion in the bindery. the logistics of packing and distributing are on the scale of moving a small army for the numbers involved. And since this is a non profit, the factor of keeping the cost down will also add time, how, cheapest trucking is a sure way of adding days to delivery. Use this factor with all areas of production: Prep, Print, Bindery, packaging, distribution, etc. Plus other factors. Why do they pick Julyfor shipping? Because it is a slow time for book publishers. In all likely hood the books goes into print production around this time of year, right after the Easter Holiday, Spring Sales rush and right before the telephone book Fall catalogue rush. So low profit or non profit get the left overs, that explains July delivery. A project this big invites all sorts of stuff to happen. Just in Time cuts it real close in getting the paper, etc. One spring snow storm will wreak havoc. One trucking disaster will prevent the entire country from having the books in place, nationwide, for total distribution. Could they do a better job, sure, but, National would need (they might already have it) a full time knowledgeable print person(s). In today's environment, An organization with the buying clout of BSA could also practice what many big companies practice...lowest bid only.... which you pay the price on with quality and service. But that makes BSA no different than other large corps. and it is done to save scouts and scouters money in the long run.

we are the dinosoaurs... big Bodies, little brains, Favorite saying: "you'd think a (PL, 1st class, star scout, etc) would know how figure that out, wouldn't ya?"

FScouter I heard the same nonsense at Woodbadge on the Leave No Trace lecture. I asked to see the goverment application form or job description for the ranger who has to enforce this supposed requirement. What's next, Scouters bringing pooper scoopers to the woods to clean up after the animals?

Eamonn Yes, you brought a tear to my eye...the pain is so real and these scouters taking your course will never really understand the herculian effort you have made. On another note, I will have to give the course some credit. I was a chaplains aide (funny since I play devil's advocate so often) at the course and that training came into play over the weekend. At our district camporee, the catholic priest canceled at the last minute, the presbyterian minister forgot... and a brand new scout on his first outing reminded us that he and his parents really need him to go to a catholic mass. Well long story short, the mass was not an option at the camporee, but that training did kick in and a couple of other guys worked with me to pull together the fastest planned scout's own service I've ever seen. And no, we did not have a bible, nor any other resources handy, but I think we did a good job. Had the boy call his mom so they could arrange something on Sunday. Talked to her late yesterday to make sure everything was all right as her son told me that the service didn't count as a mass on Sat. night. She let me know that he talked non stop about the fun he had all weekend, and the "feedback" about his description to his mom let me know that he not only "got it" at the service but enjoyed it too. I did the part about the kneckerchief, the oath, the law and how it represents a duty to God and how God is watching over the scouts. In order to do that for that scout and the rest of the camporee really makes the pain of woodbadge course dimension to a large degree. Funny how God works, No?

I'll bite, not my tongue tho' As for point one about attendees wanting something that is not scouting, I'll share my experience, right or wrong, I know I'm inviting criticism but so be it. I was asked a bunch of years ago to be the asst CSRTC with a newguy who was brand new to our district/council. Why, because I asked and aksed the Chairman and commissioner why RT was just a "Moan" session (I normallyuse a different descriptive word for this) to complain about council and professionals. The two of us decided without benefit of an evaluation to install a conventional RT program (My partner is philmont trained, woodbadge, yada yada...he just knows how to have fun). So step one was to stopping the Kvetching, so we eliminated announcements completely, as the only served as a opening to start again. All announcements where to be on paper. All questions about an event, etc had to be made offline, in person, one on one with the person making the announcement. The announcer was only allowed to sell the benefits and had 2 minutes to do so. Was there an uproar, you bet, but the uproar was no longer in the RT session. 2. We kept this policy in place for almost the entire first year. Yeah we modeled behavior. In exchange for this, we presented as much and as varied a program as possible, so that no lulls in the program would give rise to this unscouting like behavior. We, possibly wrongly, but I believe rightly, let it be known that what goes on with the professional staff and council programs, realistically, don't have much impact on cubs. We where incredible lucky in having a new D.E. who not only supported this, but promoted the philosphy of keeping the B.S in the district in the district and The BS at the council at the council. This method forced us RT commissioners to personally get involved and get to know the units personally. At times we where a great Broadway show others a poor vaudville act. As for the thought about pleasing everyone. Variety is key. We, the staff, wher ethe 8 yr old kids and enough people wanted to join in, that we devote about 1/3 of the meeting to being grown up kids through games, etc. We always follow up these demonstrations/interactions with a comment or discussion on why we do this and how it can benefit the kids as well as the planning and supplies needed for a game etc. I believe you have to have the fun part in the RT meeting, otherwise you will have CM and such lecture talking to kids. We set up our Rt in 5 minute segments. Some segments take 10 or 15, but we plan along for 5 minutes. Why, because we tend to be an impatient society. How do I measure our success. A couple of ways. One the old, kick em out the door the meetings is done and I want to go home. We have that every month, most do not want the fun to stop or they want the discussion to go on. Two, attenance, we really follow it, not by unit, by how many from a unit and variety of positions Seat of the pants stuff - calls and emails from scouters informing that they will not be able to make a meeting but could we bring up to speed their replacement Three RT staff programs. When the staff ventures out to do other programs like camporess and such, we have been ending up with more volunteer help than we need. I am guessing this is not the norm? I think Bob W you bring up some interesting arguments/questions here and I can only emphasise that you have to follow the Aims and means of scouting, that the program has to be Fun...with a purpoise, but what do you do with the dophin part I haven't figured out yet

I think that while we have to model i agree that we don't have to go down t being 8 yrs old month after month. I have tried this, did not work out so well, but I will try this again: Craft show, instead of making crafts, have the units bring in samples of crafts made already. Skits: I agree wholeheartedly on tired skits so i love paper bag dramatics. Bunch of stuff, a couple lines of suggestions and the group comes up with a two minute "act" this allows the scouters who don't like to perform to participate without being center stage. It models Plan B situations, creativity etc. Songs: Oldies but goodies should be spread out over the year, every 3 months or so. We often close with vespers. Ceremonies, one of my staff told me that he joined the RT staff for a couple of reasons, one being the ability to stop the Hokie ceremonies found in the published program guides. His job is to either come up with new or refit Hokie ceremonies to fun, simple ceremony presentations which we use to welcome new attendees or just to show a ceremony. I think the key here though, is to know your district. Our council has 6 districts, each different from the other, either in size or character and RT program has to fit the needs of the scouters in the district. Evaluation Forms are essential to planning this program. There will always be scouters at every Rt who only want the announcements and others who cannot wait to act 8 yrs. old. The key is to find where the majority of the group is at and what needs they have. Phone calls are imperative follow ups to evaluations. (Our evaluations state that a name is not needed, it can be handed in blank) Evaluations forms come in two varieties. One, RT meeting specific, the other alengthy evaluation sent ot all leaders in the district. Even if they do not attend RT, their input is valuable for setting a RT program as well as a district cub program. One thing I want at our RT, but cannot fit into the time schedule, is break out sessions for specifics. One, I do not get more than 2 o3 DL's, same with CC's and about 4 WL. Attending are a lot of CM's and ACM's. A plan is to hold a DL specific meeting next October, a Webelos specific session in Nov.

sctleader You are right on on what is presented at the course. I did not find it life changing nor challenging and it was comprised equally of contact scouters and leadersheep. As posted elsewhere I did not think it delivered the "ultimate in boy scout training" rather it was a imitation of professional courses presented in the corporate world done by volunteer scouters. there is not much time in the new course to "bond" with patrol members. that happens outside in patrol meetings. As for the secrecy, yes has that mystery feeling, but I can live with it. I have never experience a Good Ole Boys Club with WB'ers prior or since taking the course. As for the awards and stuff, I think they are slanted towards WB in the following manner, these folks have all shared something so they know each other more and see more the work WB's do. I don't think its a conspiracy per se, more innocent like who you know and work with... which brings up.... how do we would find the scouters to recognize who work with youth and their work is not publized. As for presentation techniques, wasn't covered in my WB course. In fact, half of the presenters used thepoor techniques Bob W. mentioned. As for page four of SM handbook, does that info show up in cub scout leader handbook (I do not have a copy of the new one in front of me). It is a bit egotistical to say that we do enough promoting of what woodbadge is when so many folks say they do not either understand the course or feel shut out of signing up for an invitation. I think it very monty pythonish...kinda like the cheese shop skit. In my council, they did a good job of letting people know what, where, when etc. for WB, that there was no limitation on appying. They let every district know that there where only 48 openings and with six districts there would be eight from a district allowed on a first come first served basis. It was announced and sold about 9 months before the course started. And the course did do that logistic stuff right.