Stosh

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/12/29/cub-scouts-embroiled-in-transgender-controversy.html Just out from Foxnews for all those who wish to participate in the media frenzy.

Our scouts always police up the area they camp in before they leave. We camped once in a small city park that had a campground. It was a mess when we arrived and before we left I let it be know that I won't be leaving until the whole campground is cleaned up. We were staying for free so I felt a bit obligated. They were invited to join me if they wished. They did well until one of the other adults told the boys to leave the cigarette butts. One scout and I spent an extra 1-1/2 hours cleaning up the butts that if the whole troop would have joined in on would have taken less than 15 minutes. Their only concern was they would be late in getting back home. I do not have the Outdoor Code memorized and neither did that other scout. Even if the whole troop had it memorized, I don't think it would have made one iota of difference. It's not something one memorizes, it is something one does. By the way, I learned about cleaning up campsites from my Godfather. As I mentioned in another post, he Eagled in 1936.

I'm sure that our civilization may last a bit longer, but I'm thinking Boy Scouts will surely collapse under it's bureaucracy long before that. It's not really an issue of entitlement because, yes, you are entitled to do what you wish, but then I reserve the right to do whatever I wish and that in and of itself will alienate peoples of a culture. Civilization is based on norms, both moral and practical that everyone abides by in order to bring people together, not separate them People by nature congregate with like-minded ideals and when they don't, the society separates into it's own little niches. 50 years ago, we spent a lot of time fighting that separation and now there are those that wish to have safe spaces to get away from others who are not like minded. 50 years all for naught. The world would be a lot different if every individual truly believed they were entitled to do whatever they wanted to do, and that's always an option, but the fragmented world they live in will do nothing more than entitle them to a world separated from others. That's their choice and I will support their decision. But it comes with a cost. The others are genuinely entitled as well and they simply either force these people out or they move away from them. The Puritans did it, the Mormons did it. The Amish do it. The Muslims moving into new territories do it. The Americas used to be a "melting pot" where all the separate groups melted together in a common cause. Now the point to be made is how welcoming are we as a society to accommodate the demanding few that don't want to melt, but have their own rules that others have to accommodate? I would see nothing wrong with a group deciding to be Coed Scouts on their own. Buy the books at the Scout office, recruit leaders, organize and run the program. Not a problem. I do it all the time. The church I attend has me working with the youth. They are, nor will they anytime soon be a BSA chartering organization, but that doesn't mean I don't run the youth program using the BSA dynamics...which in this case is a co-ed organization. They don't get the branding of an Eagle rank, but they can get the benefits of the program none the less. Yes, it's all under the radar, but the kids have a great time. This is why it's not a media circus when my kids meet. An 8 year old girl wants to join Cub Scouts, she can't, but if says "she identifies as a boy" then she's trying to create a loophole in the armor and is using the media as her army to get her way. Now does a girl who identifies as a gay male qualify for any and all programs? Play the games, whip up the crowds and P. T. Barmum will sell you a ticket. So the parents of the 8 year old does as I do, starts their own little den for their daughter. The problem lies in the fact that in order to have a den one needs other people and with numbers numbering in the <1% of the population the girl may be in college before she gets her friends onboard. So one needs a bit of "persuasion" (i.e. force) to compel others to go along with it. That will convince a lot of people to comply with what the few want while taking away the entitlement of others. It is obvious at this point that separation and polarization is inevitable. Yes there are ways of going about this in a civilized manner. It's just that force and intimidation do not work well when building congenial relationships.

And Cub Scouts is by policy a boy's organization. That's my point. Wishing for something that is never going to happen is like wishing to be King of the World. Now, if Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are no longer going to exist as an organization for young males, then the policy changes and the organization is no longer Boy Scout and/or Cub Scouts as has been the case for 100+ years. That is the point. BSA can be anything it wishes and deems itself to be. But calling oneself Boy Scouts of America when the membership has non-boys is a bit of an oxymoron. Sure, we can still call it Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, but a poppy that looks like a rose isn't a rose. Only someone who wishes it to be by some yet undefined definition will it be a reality of their own creation. . Isn't this the same as dumping all over the American Kennel Club for not allowing Schnoodles and Labradoodles into their kennel club? After all, the guy that shows up with a Grey Wolf or a Red Fox isn't allowed either. When the rules are removed, I am sure everyone will be extremely happy with the anarchy that results. If the scouting program in America wanted to be co-ed they would have been the American Scouts like other co-ed programs in today's world. But BP saw something, as did Lady Powell when they organized two different programs. We can regale ourselves with the benefits of all male, all female, and co-ed until the cows come home. Our society will always try to established norms by simply changing them to whatever they want. It's the entitlement culture we live in. If I want my daughter in Boy Scouts, she's entitled to it, If I want to be married to a man and I'm a man, I'm entitled to it. and the litany goes on ad nauseum and when the dust settles everyone's entitled to everything because there is no definitions, no rules, no norms, no culture and no society any longer. Every empire that ever existed has taken this road. It comes as no surprise that this is what we have chosen as the course we are due to take. Insist on getting a 25% raise every year from your company and the day will soon come when the company ceases to exist. Insist on changing the rules of how things run, they will eventually cease to run. It think this is where the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes from.

I don't know of anyone in this world that always gets what they want. It's how we deal with life makes us what we really are, not what we want to be.

Okay, I can see that. I differ in that I work with my PL's to develop leadership within the patrols. I view teamwork as shared leadership. I have a situation where two assertive boys are in the one patrol I have. One was selected as PL and he chose someone else for the APL. The other boy was pretty much bummed out. I asked him about stepping up in his patrol and taking on the role of ActivityMaster. When he asked what that meant, I said the PL and APL are going to be busy with leading the boys, maybe they could use some help putting together an activity calendar, registering the boys for camporees and summer camp, helping the boys get the MB's they wanted, planning hikes and outings for the boys, etc. 6 months ago these three boys were pretty much on the outs. Not today. Once they began to share leadership among themselves all the conflict went away. I didn't have to "train" this boy to be the ActivityMaster, it simply came natural for him in that he got to do all the things he wanted to do for activities and the other boys just FOLLOWED along with it? Sounds like leadership to me. I was at summer camp one year and the boys all paired off as buddies. The two remaining boys were a special needs boy and an older boy. I had to do everything in my power to keep myself from stepping in and making the selection more equal. I didn't. The older boy literally took this boy "under his wing" and made sure he had his 3 times a day medications, got to his MB sessions and looked over him in great detail. This included helping him every morning with his bed-wetting problem. This non-slected older boy went on to become an excellent SPL in the troop within a year or so. I am totally convinced we as adults have a lot to learn about the power of our young boys finding their way in life. Given the opportunity to actually serve (like in servant) in a leadership role brings out the best in them. Never underestimate the power of natural leadership in your boys and encourage it every chance you get. There are no syllabuses for such training. Just an adult to allow the boys to capitalize on their opportunities.

It has everything to do with the topic. How does an 8 year old boy know about what's right and wrong and what social ideals are good and or bad? I'm of the opinion that someone somewhere made some judgments about him and convinced him that in order to "fit in" he has to be different. Well, being different is the same situation we are all in. In the majority of this boy's life he is "normal" (if there is such a thing) but if displaying love, concern, nurturing, all "female" attributes means he's gay is a conclusion that judgmental people have decided is so. But while those attributes may be female, they also apply to being a good husband and father as well. Society just makes judgmental decisions out of thin air. An aggressive male that talks smack is no different than a female being "assertive". A male is expected to earn a pay check and the female is expected to stay home and raise the kids. Yet society looks askew when the dad stays home and takes care of the kids while mom goes out and has a career. One might think this is old fashioned and unenlightened, but the society around them still balks when they see it. It looks good in the press, but in the quietude of home life, it's still an "issue". Does society scrutinize the dad to make sure he's doing a good job or is it assumed he can't do as well as a mom. And what's with this mom abandoning her children for a paycheck? Women are supposed to be the nurturing half of the equation. After all we all know males do better in the economic realm while females do better in the home life. Stereotypes are real, people use them all the times whether we want to admit it or not. By the way, friends of mine didn't follow the "normal" choices in life. Dad stayed home and mom worked as an industrial engineer in the local factory. The two boys grew up just fine, the older is a sheriff's deputy and the other is into medical research. Neither of them patterned themselves after their dad (who happened to be a really nice gentleman). I worked with the mom, they lived just down the street and the older boy was a member of my Venturing Crew. If I had any doubts about the stereotype, I never would have had the opportunity to meet such nice people. I never asked questions that were none of my business. Worked out well. Context matters? Not really, that's just another layer of judgmentalism applied to the situation, most often used for justification to reinforce preconceived notions a person adheres to. If one is looking for an 100% perfect engineer, they have a long search ahead of them. Nobody's perfect. Until they are, I wouldn't get on any airplanes anytime soon. No, the issue is whether or not anyone should be treated like a human being. We don't need the stereotypes and judgments to harass any 8 year old boys. Either this boy learns to cope with a judgmental society or he's going to have a miserable existence. After all if I woke up this morning thinking I'm King of the World, I'm probably going to have some problems long before breakfast.

Of course it's relevant or we wouldn't be wasting our time on this forum talking about it. Name one other thing about this 8 year old other than he might not be really heterosexual. If all I had done with my daughter is focus on her being a tomboy, I might not even have a daughter in my life today. If one really believes in the worth of another person, and all they focus on is what they think is wrong will not make a good relationship. Find what's right, it's more important in the long run and as a scouter we, too, have the duty to help other people at all times. BP slipped up when he omitted a scout's duty to judge other people at all times. Maybe that's one of his faults we slipped up. Maybe it's because no one ever asked him why he spent an enormous amount of time in his life hanging around young boys..... I need more coffee, life is too short to focus on the wrong things.

I had a Chinese roommate, a black roommate, a gay roommate and a straight-white roommate in college. Of the bunch, only the straight-white guy caused bumpy roads and even then it wasn't all that bad. 9 + 1 = 10 9 - 1 = 7 9 x 1 = 9 9 / 1 = 9 How many people would say I got it right and how many would say I got it wrong. It's kinda too bad that we all tend to see the one thing wrong while ignoring the 3 things right. As a scouter, seeing the good in the boys makes life a lot easier. You're gay? You're an Eagle? Which will dominate when talking with him? Never talked to the scout being gay, but had a ton of conversations on him becoming an Eagle. Too bad it doesn't always work out that way in today's society. By the way, he's a student at Cambridge in England now working in astrophysics on the new cutting edge gravity waves research. He's my Eagle that couldn't start a fire, but I guess that wasn't all that important to him, we just worked around it.

My Godfather was a Marine on Wake Island at the beginning of the war and spent 4 years in a Japanese prison camp. After the war he joined the Army and fought all the way through Korea. He Eagled in 1936. His love for the outdoors was his greatest gift to me. He never talked about any of that. I read it in his obituary a few years back. Never knew I spent so many evenings around the campfire with a man like him. I had an uncle that I spent a lot of time around a campfire with, too. He was a scouter. He also served in the Navy on board a PT boat. His captain was John F. Kennedy. That, too, I found out about when his obituary came out. I really need to improve my campfire conversation skills. I really seem to be missing a lot.

I have two daughters. One grew up all pink, ruffly, nail polish and a couple of closets full of shoes for every occasion. The other was blue jeans, flannel shirts and I don't think she owned a dress until she was in her 30's. Relatives would quietly ask me if she was gay. I always said I didn't know and I never asked, but if they want to ask, go ahead. No one ever did. Well both are married and have kids of their own. And wouldn't you know it my prissy daughter has a daughter just like her sister and my tomboy daughter has a daughter with a passion for pink and glitter. They don't seem to be any more concerned about the kids' futures than I was about theirs. Yes, my ruffly daughter has been to the BWCA and my tomboy daughter is still mad at me for not taking her. To this day, neither girl has ever complained about their daughters coming home with mud from one end to the other having spent the day at Grandpa's farm. And yet when it comes time for church, both are all dressed to the T's with ruffles and lace. All four of them are an never ending source of amazement and unpredictability which works out just fine in my book. I can assure you that not all my Eagle scouts were straight, too. And this was long before the BSA opened up membership to gays. When one doesn't spend all their time thinking about all the what-ifs and projecting judgments, things seem to run a lot smoother in life. Nothing stays the same for very long. I think the "don't ask, don't tell" approach is just another way of saying, "mind your own business" and that works for every relationship even those between parent and child. I have more important things in life than to worry about other people's sexual orientation, like where my next cup of coffee is coming from.

It is all social norms.... In Korea if you prefer pink, you're a boy, you need to prefer purple to be a girl. I'm thinking anyone who adopts a Koren child is going to have a difficult time picking out nursery colors unless they go with pink to cover the either/or of the problem.

@@blw2 It always amazes me (even when I do it myself) how much we as adults really "don't see" the things we do. Instead of going outside to run around, keep the boys in patrols (yes, an adult directive! ) and have them program for themselves (another adult directive! ) something to do other that "only they know what...." It'll get the ball rolling towards the patrol method and at least hanging together long enough as a patrol to build up a bit of esprit de corps among themselves. The road is less bumpy after that. I'm thinking that the first thing that may happen is at least if they are playing a game of some sort, they have sides comprised of their own patrol members.

Now that society has opened up Pandora's box, it means there are no longer any rules and it's basically a free-for-all. I think another way of describing it might be anarchy. Society is by definition a set of rules everyone agrees on the facilitate relationships between the members of that society. Once those rules are removed, then all bets are off the table. I know anarchy might be a bit heavy handed definition, but... a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority: "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy" synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, ... more antonyms: government, order With no rules/definitions/laws, there is no society.

Okay, I'll bite... what's a GBB patrol? I train all my boys in the GBB patrol structure where everyone has a job in the patrol and the patrol is an independent unit in the troop. My NSP is trained in the GBB patrol format within the first 6 months. Everyone has a job to do in the patrol. My Leadership Corps of POR holders is made up of TROOP level POR's, but each patrol has a QM for example and a Scribe as well. Both those positions have a Troop QM and Troop Scribe in the Leadership Corps which operate as a "patrol" with an ASPL as it's "PL". They are not members of a NSP/Reg/Venture patrol at that time due to any conflict of interest with their former patrols. None of my boys are members of two patrols at any one time, there would be conflicts and hassles as to which one got priority at any given time and at best each patrol would get restricted effectiveness out of the boy. It's kinda like the issues dealing with a Troop and Crew of the same people. One or the other is going to get short changed. The same will happen with a multiple patrol issue. I see this conflict many times when older boys ad hoc together for a special activity and for the most part, their participation in their regular patrol is curtailed until the activity has been completed and the competition for time is resolved. It is this kind of disruption that I don't participate in. If a group of boys want to ad hoc into a patrol because they are older? well let them reorganize as a patrol. Quit hassling 3 patrols to get enough people to HA. Just make a HA patrol and let the 3 patrols flesh out their membership with other scouts of like interests and maturity levels. If left alone, they'll figure it out. I really get tired of siding with the boys every time some adult has some grandiose idea on how the patrols should be organized. I had one ASM have the boys meet separately as a patrol for 20 minutes at the beginning of the troop meeting. I was gone during that time. When I got back I asked why the separation in time? We have a small troop with one patrol. After I got done scratching my head I finally figured out what was happening. The patrol meeting was for the boys to do their thing and the rest of the meeting time was for the adults to tell the boys what's really going to be going on. None of the adults were that happy about the SM siding with the boys and the WHOLE meeting time as the patrol meeting and there was no TROOP meeting. If the adults needed something to say, they had to go through me first for approval. It works a lot better now that that boys are back running things and the adults are out of their hair.

Welcome to the forum, sorry it had to be this situation that promoted the post. I would go with blw2's suggestion. I have those automatic searches set up on my computer for a number of items and whenever a new item in that category pops up it tosses me an email with a link back to the e-bay item. Works really good for something that is rare on e-bay you only get an email if a new item shows up.

Totally correct, there are age limits placed on certain activities at summer camps too.

No amount of breath mints are going to get this bad taste out of one's mouth. The adults were wrong and there's no amount of "fixing" going to make it any different. The boy could have stayed quiet and accepted the decision, he could have gone off on a rant in front of them, he could have done all sorts of things and it wouldn't change a thing because the adults were wrong. The only thing that would have made this situation right was an apology and signing off on the BOR and that required maturity from the adults, not the scout.

If BSA high adventure bases have limits on ages as do the Jamborees, that means not everyone in the patrol can go. Then the older boys go as individuals and the "patrol" gets left behind. Need more boys for the HA? Don't look to the patrol, have the adults help get an ad hoc patrol together. After all, the 16 year olds really love hanging out with 6th graders.

But the real question is....would this child be accepted in the GSUSA ranks?

The only adult rule I have when it comes to the patrol method is: 6-8 boys, one leader. The rest is up to them. It is really surprising how little grief I get out of that process. Everything that goes wrong is of their own making and falls into their responsibility to fix. They problem solve, they do what it takes to avoid hassles, and they generally really like hanging out with their buddies. Some advance, some take their time. They tend to keep each other on task and hold each other responsible for getting things done per their assignments. The reason the adults don't mess with the patrol method is because if they do and something goes awry, they will get 100% of the blame from the other adults. Leave the boys alone to figure things out. If they ask for help, give them advice, but keep your hands in your pockets. Create for them opportunities, but don't expect any of them to be taken advantage of, it's their program. If you come up with a bright idea, they'll take over and follow through. If you come up with a dumb idea.... well they can see right though that and will avoid it like the plague. Don't take it personally. It's NOT YOUR PROGRAM! We as scouters tend to complain about a ton of things coming down from National, yet we then turn right around and try ramming it down the boys' throats. What's with that?

Hunting can be part of the Venturing program.

If one were to look closely at my formula for measuring the Patrol Method in the unit it is easy to see all I did is break down the troop activities into individual patrol activities and that the 300' principle is ingrained into the program at the unit level. National breaks everything down to the 1) Council, 2) District, 3) Troop levels and all I did was take the JTE to the 4) Patrol level. 50 meetings a year means the "troop" meets as a consortium of patrols not as a troop. The service projects don't need to be troop decided issues, let the patrols take some ownership, Decisions made on the troop level can just as easily and with more ownership happen at a patrol level, thereby emphasizing the individuality of the patrols. At Camporees, we talk about Troop 55 in one place, Troop 27 in another and yet why can't the Silver Fox from Troop 7 be in one place and the Ravens from Troop 7 somewhere else where they can't be sharing the troop trailer and cooking as one big group just because it's convenient for the adults? We do nothing to translate JTE onto the patrol level. For me that would be a good start. It's easier to always talk about the patrol method but that's just about it....just lip service.

Attendance is not measured in the troop method for JTE, why all of a sudden is it critical for the patrol method? I fail to see the correlation. The "Journey to Excellence" = bronze is we make an effort for the program to show we aren't just totally goofing off. Gold = we did a bang up job and the adults were very helpful in directing, guiding, encouraging, nagging and hassling us out of complacency. Silver = we actually made the journey by ourselves. The patrol method is the means to develop leadership. The discussion focuses around management and organizational needs, i.e. 6 - 8 boys per group (patrol), one is the designated spokesperson for the group (PL) and put in a second for him in case he's not around (APL). Get a flag, make up a yell, etc. and one has measurable management goals that one can actually take account for. But then someone mentions teamwork is necessary otherwise PL does all the work and everyone else just sits around and complains about things not getting done, like supper. So then organization expands to QM, Scribe, Bugler, Grubmaster, ActivityMaster, etc. those things that GBB mentions in his training syllabus. Everyone has a job....... So where's the teamwork? Well, when everyone becomes a true leader within the operation of the patrol it all fits together. 6:00 am, the Bugler is the leader 6:15 am, the GrubMaster is the leader with assistant leadership from the QM who gets the kitchen set up for the meal. 7:00 am, the Chaplain's Aid is the leader 7:45 am, the QM is the leader and orchestrates the stowage of gear from the kitchen. 8:00 am, the ActivityMaster is the leader, he has the schedule for the day's activity. 8:15 am, the PL/APL lead the boys in the activity. 11:30 am, the GrubMaster takes over leadership once more and gets the meal going etc. At one point or another everyone in the patrol needs to take their shot at leading the group......it's known as teamwork. With that being said, other than leadership, what's the purpose of the patrol method. Everything else can be done without the patrol method in place. We see troops doing it all the time, but they are pretty much adult run, troop method. Boys work their way through the process and get their Eagle, age out or drop out along the way. I'd rather try and measure leadership than simply set management goals.

Whatever jingles your bells or lightens your load, may the Peace we so often seek be with you and your loved ones. That means Happy Holidays to the generic crowd... Merry Christmas to my Christian friends.... Happy Chanukah to my Jewish friends.... A belated Milad un Nabi to my Muslim friends... A Blessed Kwanzi to my friends who celebrate that holiday... A genunie well wishing of peace, happiness and good health to those I have missed.... Stosh