Stosh

In our neck of the woods, cold weather/winter camping does not have a fire. If one heats up one side the body and leaves the other side cold, it confuses the body's natural mechanisms and doesn't know whether to heat up because you're cold or cool down because you're warm. 1" of snow at 32o camping is nothing compared to no snow and -5o camping. Whole different skill set going on.

From my point of view, what was once a fun activity for the boys has somehow been morphed into a win-at-all-cost competition. I think my son viewed it that way and thus figured it wasn't worth the hassle. That was 30 years ago now. I'm thinking it's gotten worse over the years.

My son was Tiger through Arrow of Light. Never made a car. He wasn't interested. His call. I thought it might have been fun, but it never happened.

Welcome to the forum. If one plays their cards right, trains up the boys with boy-led leadership using the patrol method, being a SM is quite easy. The biggest decision one will need to make is whether or not they want cream and/or sugar in their coffee.

Right now, the area of Wisconsin I'm in doesn't really have snow. A ton of ice, but no real snow. White ice doesn't count and the weather moving in is more rain and ice. Yet the lessons learned from a camp out this weekend or next would far outdo any "snow on the ground" camping I have experienced in the past. More than once our spring or fall camporee had a "dusting of snow" but I wouldn't call it winter camping by any stroke of imagination.

If I had a nickel for every time an adult did something for a scout he was totally capable of doing himself, I would be a lot richer than I am now. I rack this up to the idea that parents can't let their dear little, precious kids fail at anything. They are bred to compete and winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. Second place is really first place loser. I have heard it all. I even had one mom that kept a book calendar of all her son's itinerary so that they could be where they needed to be on time. Only she wrote in the book. The two boys did Eagle, their dad was an Eagle and they were in my crew so I knew the routine well. The older boy was Lodge Chief. With all the accolades and awards, I would bet good money they never really earned any of it on their own. This is how parents do a major disservice to their children. They can't stay their babies forever, they have to grow up and if one stands in the way, they never will.

And for Derby cars, it's unfortunate, once those Webelos parents cross over to Boy Scouts, the damage they are capable of doing increases exponentially. Parents are in a big hurry to potty train their kids and teach them to walk and talk, but somewhere along the line they give up being parent and start being a friend which by lowering themselves down to their maturity level means the kids never have a chance to be an adult. It used to be the kids could escape that trap at 18, but now we have parents keeping them in their psychological dungeons of their basements until the kids are well into their 30's and 40's. Wake up, it's only a Derby car! It's not the end of the world but it would seem it may be the beginning of a slippery slope for their son. And if the Derby car wins, the boy gets the award knowing full well, he didn't make the car. That's not a good life lesson to learn at that age.

From reading the requirement, I would conclude that if the requirement said something about "winter camping experience" those in Florida and California would have no problem meeting the requirement. But if one wishes to go with the intent of the "snow" meaning cold, experience, that would make a difference. Now, in Wisconsin we have snow on the ground with temperatures hovering around zero or below at night. 5 years ago when I was married on January 7th, there was no snow on the ground and the temperature was hovering around 32-freezing. In the high country of Yellowstone, there is still snow in the passes in June. But I have enjoyed snow in the mountains of San Diego County California as well. Right now on that outing we would not be able to snowshoe or cross-country ski. There isn't enough snow and what we have has had major rain on making it more like an ice field than a snow pack. There are those in the area that are still kayaking on the open waters of the faster rivers around here. It's a crap-shoot as to what one gets for weather around here. I would think the intent of the snow camping is not to have snow, but to deal with the sub-freezing and sub-zero temperatures on an outing. That means the San Diego scouts get off the beach catching rays and head for the higher elevations for the possibility of catching some snow. If not, the scout can still learn what it takes to "winter/snow/cold" camping. I can guarantee one thing, the outing that does NOT have snow but has sub-zero temperatures is really difficult. Snow makes a great insulator and without it, one is at the mercy of whatever they can drag into the woods. Good luck with that, it's a great learning experience and sub-zero camping with no snow is a lot more difficult than if they have snow. Learn what it takes to deal with the cold, not the snow. To me this is what I think the requirement is going after.

Speed writing is a system developed with certain rules that leave out letters and focus on sounds. All the vowels are omitted There are no capital letters. I's are not dotted and T's are not crossed. The letter b is without a loop, but a b with a loop is really BL S n rdr to s, 2 b r nt 2 b tht s th kwstn t s rtn s sch. Usually if one takes notes in class, within a day, it is rather easy to transcribe. As time passes, some of the context may get lost and one would need to struggle more. Modern computer shorthand LOL, SUL, IMHO, CU L8R are all textual keyboard similar ideals to cursive speed handwriting.

"It was an incredibly humbling and unexpected experience," said Dennler. "I'm very thankful to everyone who helped to make that happen and for the support of my family and friends." I will continually stand in awe and be totally inspired by the Real Eagles of this world. Well done, Scout!

@@Mackey, first of all, welcome to the forum. Just a couple of comments about what has been said. Everything falls first and foremost under Youth Protection Training policies regardless of what any other person says. Youth Protection Training is a misnomer in that to me it has less to do with protecting youth as it does for protecting ADULTS. One false step, one unfounded accusation, one vengeful kid and your opportunity to ever work with youth in any setting EVER is over and it is locked in stone in the legal system.. Every job your apply for, every housing lease you make, every neighborhood you live in will be taken into consideration. When you cross that magical, yet arbitrary milestone of life everything that you know about the world changes to a different perspective. You may feel exactly the same the day after your birthday as you did the day before, but it just ain't so. Take the YPT and pay VERY CLOSE attention to every detail it is very important. The law of the land and every courtroom in the country has the youth protection as a high priority. You might have done some rough and tumbling wrestling with your buddies before you are 18 that simply needs to be avoided afterwards. Until your buddies catch up to you in age, you are no longer their "best buddies" They are kids and YOU ARE NOT. I have worked closely with youth for 40+ years in a variety of different youth settings and I have faithfully practiced YPT to the extreme and beyond. Just last week, a church member said she trusted me to take her daughter half way across the country to a leadership training seminar. I smiled and said, "No way! Not going to happen." Then she said, what about your wife? I said, "No way! Not going to happen." She asked what it would take and I said, "Two women who have had full background checks by the congregation, and preferably another female youth participant. " You will be offered a lot of "bend the rules a bit" opportunities throughout your lifetime and you need to be able to say NO and walk away. And if Scouting isn't enough... You're 18, your girl friend is 17, and Girl Friend Dad can drop a statutory rape charge on you faster than you can outrun the shotgun he carries. To sum it up, being a kid was great, being an adult is quite a bit more work.

Being a victim in any situation, from the world's stage to a private home, is a conscious choice.

I flat out tell my church group of kids that what I teach for leadership in the church comes directly out of my scouting experience. I also make certain that when we talk about doing ministry it is always in the context of "help other people at all times." They are all fully aware of where those words I use come from. My church youth group is one service project after another. They have fund raisers to be able to purchase materials for nursing home lap blankets, buy materials for school kits for kids overseas, a 10% tithe of everything they raise goes to a charity. They ring bells for Salvation Army, donate blood to the Red Cross, and collect food for the local food pantries. They sing in the choir, ring bells in the bell choir, teach Sunday School, and serve on the church council all before they turn 18. The money they raise "for themselves" is for the annual mission trip to an area like an urban setting or rural area that has been hit by economic problems. They've done the Katrina follow up as well as South Dakota Indian missions. So, when it comes to Scouting, I do just as much if not more Scouting OUTSIDE of scouting than I do within. Scouting is something one lives, not just learns and if Tillerson wishes to give credit where credit is due in his life, it's a free country....at least for a while yet.

When I was in 3rd grade I had terrible penmanship. My mother made me practice, EVERY DAY! I got to the point where I really started to like doing it and eventually now I do calligraphy just for fun. I can also take dictation using speed writing and can go back and read what I wrote. I have a fountain pen (made of deer antler) in my pocket as I speak. I had it custom made. The fella said, what wood should I use, I said what about deer antler. He said, "No problem". I love the wide tip of a fountain pen! The only downside to this whole thing is every one says I write "like a girl". Maybe so, but no one has ever come to me and said they can't read what I have written. By the way, with the speed writing (which most people can't read, something like shorthand, but easier to learn), I can write normal cursive as fast if not faster than I can type and still be able to read it.

BSA being a BOY Scout program is sufficient cause to have a good reason for it's all-boy policies in the programs, especially those called BOY Scouts. To me that's reason enough.

What part of "A Scout pays his own way." in anyway implies credit? The requirement was to earn money and put it in the bank, not borrow money one doesn't have. On occasion, in my life time I have held bank notes for up to 3 years. I have bought cars on credit and paid it off early. I finished my masters degree, 8 years after graduating high school with $1,500 in student debt which was paid off in 6 months, I own two houses outright, I have 5 cars all paid for, I retired a millionaire and I never made more than $47,000/year in wages/salary. I have a credit rating of ZERO and it doesn't bother me one bit. I took seriously the scout law when it say, "A Scout is Thrifty" meaning he pays his own way in life. It's a lesson that we have substituted a different program from what Scouting originally intended to teach the boys. The problem with 1929 was everyone was over extended with credit. Maybe it's time we reviewed what B-P meant when he said "A Scout is Thrifty". I don't think he would even know what SSScout is talking about with this "credit" business. Thrifty NEVER means spend money one doesn't have.

But if somehow the populace can convince everyone this is not a moral issue, nor scientific, nor religious, nor psychological, nor (fill in the blank) but a political issue, then they seem to feel they have traction. What they do, however, ignore the moral, scientific, religious, psychological, etc. to make their definition sound politically plausible. What that means for the future, all YPT, co-ed rules, sexual realities, etc. established by anyone other than this elitist group, are now null and void. That's how one negates the power of one's enemies. I can be anything I want to be and YOU have to recognize it or you are criminalized in the process. This is how minority extremism works.

Neither do I.

With LED's what is the heat source for the lanterns?

Known to whom? and by whose definition? One can make up whatever fantasy they wish in this world of ours, create whatever wonderful state of being might be possible, but unfortunately the reality of the situation stays the same. I can claim the white wall in my kitchen is black from dawn 'til dusk, but everyone else thinks it's white. Now, depending on my resoluteness in the matter and length of time, I can insist on it being black, eventually people will not think the wall black, but may conclude something about the state of my mind. For 66 years now I have since I was a small child known what white looks like and what black looks like, and what a male is and what a female is. Now there's something to be said about the color grey, during all that time, but for the most part male has been male and female is female and if someone varied from such concepts, it wasn't male and female that became the issue, but given the length of time and the resolute nature of one's insistence, one may eventually conclude that something about a person's state of mind is a bit amiss and that is always a part of real reality. If that logic seems unacceptable to another, then any reality of a trans sexual will be viewed the same same to others. Sure there are those that believe in unicorns and leprechauns, but it doesn't make either of them reality. There are a lot of things I wish I could wish into existence, but it would seem that reality has always kept my wishing in check.

If the requirement in Webelos is to "come up with a den name and flag", couldn't that be interpreted as "coming up from Tigers" with a den name and flag? Just sayin'......

No, the way to stop religious bigotry is to have a troop of scouts, not a troop of mostly Christian troop (as well as Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc. I'm the last person in the world that will champion political correctness, but when we quit pointing out our religious differences then that will stop religious bigotry. I have in my extended family all kids of different people of different races, national origin, sexes, religious beliefs, ages, mental states, physical and mental challenges, but they are all family. I guess if I was talking about Pat, I might distinguish between Pat my nephew and Pat my granddaughter. Otherwise, just names are fine.

Posted Today, 09:48 AM Stosh, on 10 Jan 2017 - 11:22 PM, said: nothing...... in fact it's admirable except it's really not part of the program is it? I missed the memo, when did they drop the Scout Handbook? From the Scout Handbook - "A Scout is thrifty. A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for the future. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property." It used to be under the section where they explained the Scout Law, word by word. My mistake.....

@@blw2 If one were to go back and look at some of the older scout handbooks, they took A Scout is Thrifty a lot more serious than they do today. Back then (even in when I was a scout) we were to open a bank account and put a certain amount of money in it for advancement. With finances taken from the boys by the adults, this is just a residual exercise in futility to try and do this today. TF 9a. Open a bank account 9b. Earn and save $100 by putting it into that account. 2C bumps that balance to $200, FC $300, Star $400, Life $500, and a whopping $1,000 saved for Eagle..... and one still wouldn't have enough money for Jamboree or Philmont. It's not unreasonable $100 for a TF Scout????!!!! Are you nuts?! Relatively speaking that may sound like a lot of money, but it is less than half of what normally is charged for summer camp. What's wrong with a Scout earning his own way? After all when we give the definition of that Law in the COH, don't we spell it out in those terms yet today? I don't think the requirements do a thing to promote A Scout is Thrifty other than to teach them to buy cheap bacon when they shop for the next camping trip. That just doesn't do that Law justice.

Okay, that makes sense now. The streamers would do well to mark the history of anyone who was ever in that den and it may work to the benefit of them staying together in the den. I'm thinking the hand prints would be more "permanent" to the den than taking a streamer off and putting it on a different den in the years to come. If one hems the edges and puts grommets in it, it will last longer and could even be a patrol flag when they go into Boy Scouts (unless some adults decide they can't stay together after they cross over). Thanks for the clarification.