Stosh

When I had an SPL, he would MC the COH. Before that the PL's did the MC job on a rotation basis. Opening flags and after an introduction of welcome, the MC would call out a PL and if he were to receive rank or awards, the MC would present to him. He in turn would present to his patrol members. Then the next PL, etc. Some of the older PL's would visit with the boy and might inquire on what the collection he did for the collections MB, etc. It varied from one boy to another and no two COH's were the same. Closed with the retirement of the flags. Never did any candles, scripts, or such things. Just a recognition of advancement/awards in front of the parents and then off to the treats that always accompanied the event. No adults had a part in the COH. At the last COH of the year, I would sometimes be invited up to give a State of the Troop "speech"/remarks. Nothing fancy, everyone seemed satisfied with how it went.

Patch trading is a nice hobby and a lot of scouts do it. I myself have a huge bucket of patches that cover 40+ years of scouting. Yet, when all is said and done concerning the Council Patches, from 5' away they are basically unreadable with all the fancy colors and designs, etc. and yet from 15' away I can clearly make out DETROIT, MICH in red and white. Seriously unless one is in the neighborhood, where on god's green earth is FOUR LAKES COUNCIL or BAY LAKES COUNCIL. I might be a bit old-fashioned, but within that old-fashionedness is a spark of common sense, too. So will the patch people be upset? Heavens no! One's going to need to collect a community strip for every town in America! That'll keep them busy for a while.

Let the boys make the mistakes. A vast majority of the problems, the conflicts, and drama in the units are adult based and if the program is aiming for boy-led, then they better step back and quit interfering with the boys' development. Just looking at the posts on this forum we see problems with "what's an active scout" and the answers are adult definitions. We expect the boys to lead, but then immediately jump in and save them when they stand on the precipice of failure. Adult led is mostly not letting the boys direct their destiny, allow them opportunities of their choice, and letting them fail. Does it really make sense that the boys will avoid an activity that they planed and wanted to do in the first place? Does it really mean the end of the world if the boy forgets his mess kit? When all hell breaks loose do they blame the SM because it was all his idea? But a new Webelos cross over can't be SPL his first time at camp!!! Why not? who decided that? Why not let them learn from their failures. God forbid the young 'un does a great job at it. After all I have met a few 6th graders that have more sense and maturity than their 16 year old counterparts. It doesn't happen very often, but when I don't think it will make it and it does, I don't mind being surprised.

I don't know if there's a set of books big enough to offer up enough pages to do it justice. My council alone has so many shoulder patches, I think they have one for every day of the week. I think they come out with a new patch every so often to use as a fundraiser. I still wear the patch I put on 25 years ago and haven't bothered to change. I'm thinking it's worth quite a mint now. Over the course of a year, I know there's one for the Council, one for FOS, one for major fundraising, one for any specialty event like Jamboree, one for just the Cubs, one for Just the Scouts. And then there's the OA council patches, and the list goes on and on and on.... However on my "historic" uniform I have my community strip and state strip and get FAR more comments on that overall.

I'm thinking the gals ought to sell cookies along the parade route.......

After a while, one is taught to basically tune out such things. It's unfortunate that after a while of having one's awareness raised that they will tune it out along with other background noise. A major issue might deserve some focused attention, but not every little annoyance that might come one's way. I think it's great that the Scouts, both Girl and Boy will be in the parade. It's the right thing to do, kinda like flying the flag on the 4th of July. If that's offensive to anyone, it's unfortunate, but it's not going to sway my opinion one bit.

With my troops, the boys are all expected to personally take the lead on whatever service project they wish to do. For the new boys it might be something as simple as picking up garbage in the local park or along side of roads. They find a date, plan the scope, etc. and put it all together. They don't have to do any booklets; nor make any reports; or even have the project reviewed, but from an early age on they know how to put together a project. They might have a good half dozen of them under their belt before they are expected to do their Eagle Project. By the time they get to that point they are doing major projects such as cleaning up a neglected park, cleaning up the construction garbage and then landscaping around a local church's new addition. These aren't small projects like some little lending library kiosk outside some church, but the boys have had the experience that what they put together is pretty awesome at times. Often times I tell them they don't have to have such grandiose projects, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

It is my policy that any scout (Boy or Girl) that is in full uniform selling anything, I will buy something. I had one boy from a former unit come to my house (15 mile drive) and ask me to buy some geraniums. I looked at him from head to foot (he was not wearing his uniform). I said, "Not now, maybe tomorrow." He can back the next day in full uniform and made a $50 sale. Ditto on the patriotic many in our society often miss. It would seem that with the heavy emphasis on winning and everyone feeling good about their participation awards, when they don't win what they want, sportsmanship goes out the window rather quickly. Fake trophies do not teach people about being gracious losers. That's coming back to haunt us today.

We aren't restricted in who we sell to (we, too, have a church CO) and we receive no funding from them either. However we do help setup, serve and clean up afterwards, their annual fundraiser dinner. And yet, if the boys want to eat at that meal they have to buy a ticket. They never offered a free meal, we don't assume it either. Every CO does it differently.

From day one, the process of planning and organizing needs to be instilled in the scout. Waiting until he is working on his Eagle is WAY too late. There's a pamphlet in the front of every Handbook. The boy is expected to schedule time with his parents, go through the pamphlet, have his parents sign on it and bring it back. At age 10-11 with parents doing everything for them, that's a huge obstacle to overcome. But they do and then they do the next. "You did that?" Where's your book to show me? Forgot it. That's one less week you have to work on advancement. Didn't pack a mess kit? Bummer. Clothes all wet and the adults won't let you outside to sled in 10o weather? What? Your mom didn't pack enough? Well, maybe next time you pack so you have everything." My favorite line is: "Excuses do not solve problems because they have an effective range of zero meters. Do you want me to convert that to feet and inches?" It is a major disservice to accept excuses from the boys. Only results move things forward.

A lot of animals go after their young, some kill them and some even eat them. It's sad when humans use children as the leverage for divorce, crime, and a variety of different political movements. This practice has been around since the dawn of time and there doesn't seem to be much hope for it ending any time soon.

My troop has it's budget and do does each patrol. This % of money taken in on a fundraiser is like an ISA, but as a individual Patrol Account. We do not have ISA's. If the patrol doesn't like the junk stove they have, they can buy a new one. If they want to have a patrol pizza party, they can. If they want to buy a canoe, they can. If they decide to use their money as a scholarship for one of their members who can't afford summer camp, they can. If the boys over-spend their budget, they can appeal to the troop treasurer for more funds and if justified it can be arranged. One of the side-affects of this system is that no one ever says, I have raised enough money for myself to go to Philmont. If he does say that he has the money stashed in his own personal account in the bank, not with the troop/patrol. On the other hand, WE as a patrol have raised enough money for us all to take a nice week long canoe trip next summer. For me this process works nicely into the patrol method and goes a long way to build esprit-de-corps. Keep the patrol budget in the JTE but as a valid financial consideration, not a carrot on a stick to get the patrols to go along with the program.

I go with @@qwazse -adult application and free training and the subtle expectation his scouting career is far from over.

You are on the right track @@MattR If left alone a lot of the concerns brought up would simply disappear. Patrol A has 7 scouts. No problem Patrol B has 8 scouts. No problem Patrol C has 5 scouts. Problem Patrol C needs to negotiate another scout away from one of the other patrols. They ask one of the older boys from Patrol B to be their PL. Wow. he jumps at the chance, problem solved. Of course Patrol D was the older boys and they have only 2 boys now that the current lot of boys are aging out. The NSP is coming in with only 4 new boys, Patrol D jumps at the chance, one becomes PL and the other TG and they get by with the NSP Patrol D with 6 boys, 4 newbies and 2 older boys. Lone boy come into the troop. He can basically join any patrol he wants to except Patrol B which has 8 boys already. Let the recruiting begin! No problem, time for coffee, the boys will figure it out.

I don't see that as a valid excuse for not teaching the boys to do it right. I think the phrase goes something like this, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." A Scout is Thrifty he pays his own way... I don't want my boys thinking the popcorn money is free money for them to use, which in my former units was the assumed stance. I earned my way to camp by getting charity from strangers and in return they got over-priced popcorn and I got to go to camp. On the other hand are they employed by the CO to sell popcorn to pay for the program? If that be the case the $20 cash they get for mowing the neighbor's yard? Is that indicated on their taxes? For me this whole issue isn't what says the tax code, it's all about being an honest Scout/Scouter. If one doesn't know what constitutes honesty, it might bode well to find out. Thus the reason for the thread.

I don't view this issue as the boys buying INTO the system, it's the adults cashing OUT of the system. The boys select their PL and if they don't like it, it's not my fault in the first place, nor is it my responsibility to fix it either. I don't set terms, qualifications or anything else in the patrol. They have a problem with their leadership, they have the power AND AUTHORITY to do what it takes to fix it. The only time I ever had a "full-time" SPL the PL's selected who THEY wanted to support their PL work. They chose one of their APL's to do it. Kinda surprised me, but it worked out well. PL's all retained their positions in their patrols and the one patrol had to come up with a new APL. Very little disruption or commotion i the process. The SPL had to shift gears from being the right-hand man to a PL to being the left-hand man to 4 PL's. Again, I as SM wasn't involved in the process, I didn't make any adult rules, I didn't give any indication who needed POR (as if that's a big qualification game changer for anyone) and if anything had gone awry, the PL's couldn't come after me for making dumb rules. Eventually everyone finds a niche that they like and things run smoothly and I don't have to hear any whining or complaining. "Whine and complain all you want boys, I didn't make the problem, and I don't have to fix it for you. Figure it out yourself. Excuse me I need more coffee." Yes, in the system I use, there's a bit of politickin' going on just like anything else. The TG that gets elected to the NSP as PL after his TG time is up; the APL of one patrol that gets lured away to be a PL of another patrol; etc. With no rules applied, the first time a patrol "shanghaied" a patrol member of a different patrol to be their PL, there was a big to-do. It was the NSP that elected the older brother of one of the new boys to be their PL. It worked out fine.

It is obvious that units vary from each other in how they handle it in their neck of the woods. To say that the "right" way is to elect using the processes of one over the other is the only way to go sometimes isn't in the realm of BSA guidelines. We have many on this forum that indicate that the SM and other Scouters pick a boy to be SPL because he needs a POR. That's the way they do it and yet, when I suggest the PL's select the SPL, that's not the "norm"? And the debate rages on. Seriously, how many problems arise from the SM selecting an SPL vs. the PL's selecting the SPL? I find it a lot easier on everyone over the course of the program. And when all is said and done and everyone is bent out of shape from all the hassles that are created, I as SM can turn to my PL's and say, "You created this mess, now fix it." rather than trying to defend my ineptitude in putting an SPL in there that no one really wanted and are unwilling to follow. I only offer an alternative that for my units have resolved many of the problems that float over and over again on this forum.

Totally agree, @@Hedgehog and I think that is why the IRS hasn't gotten to the BSA....yet. ISA's are charitable moneys taken in and spent for the benefit of individuals. Definitely a charitable no-no. Yet the troops do it anyway. Now, whether the scope of the abuse, fraud and money laundering is so small it flies under the IRS radar, does it mean it's okay to teach our boys that it is okay to do? THAT is the rub I find offensive with many of the troops finding it okay to do. I don't want my boys to think that the efforts they put into the program is to acquire personal wealth in an ISA account, nor do I want them to think that because the organization they work for is charity they are entitled to personally gain from that effort. Yes, the Salvation Army pays some people minimum wage to ring bells at Christmas time, some charities pay professional telemarketers and accept 10% of the money as actually helping the cause and I eat MRE's that the Red Cross provides the shelter residence after a hurricane goes through because the power's out, nothing's open and money is useless at that point. Somehow I don't see these things falling into the same category as collecting money under the guise of Boy Scout programming, taking a charitable donation off of taxes so that an individual scout can go to Philmont or Sea Base. What's to keep the parents and grandparents from "donating" the cost of the Philmont trip for their boy and taking it as a charitable donation for Scouting off on their taxes? That's money laundering and I'm sure there are troops out there that wouldn't bat an eye on the practice. Many times the goals, aims and purposes of the Scouting movement get clouded in the practices promoted by the units. A Cub Pack with $5,000 in banking CD's raised $5,000 for the program of scouting in that unit and then never spent it on the boys. Where's the honesty in that? A for-profit CO is just another step further in the process of potential abuse and the lessons that are taught to justify the processes.

How can anyone say a troop that has adults doing this kind of thing be defined as a boy-led troop and still keep a straight face? Seriously, if they believe their boys to be running the show, yet they do all the planning and prep, they are doing a great disservice to their boys.

If the IRS went after athletic booster clubs for stretching the limits on such fundraising for individuals, what's to stop them from going after BSA units especially those associated with private for-profits? With the raising money for individual members, doesn't that also jeopardize a non-profit's exemption? One might not see it a big deal for a single unit, but with the amounts of $$'s on the table, it could be a rather lucrative audit situation.

My whole troop is a NSP and I'm having a blast!!! We might take on some new Webelos in the next few months, should be interesting.

Don't do as I do, do as I say..... I'm sure that's going to sell.....

Maybe a day and a week is not reasonable, nor is perpetual, but then who's to say what is reasonable. If some kid gets elected to PL based on popularity and after 1 or 2 weeks the boys see the error of their ways, does that mean they have to suffer their mistake for a month? 6 months? a year? Or can they fix the problem right away? Again arbitrary rules limits the boys' ability to decide for themselves and when they fail, to fix it. And then again on the other hand of reasonable, if the boys have a top-notch PL that really cares about his boys, when do they have to give him up? Or can they just keep him and find other POR's for their advancement? Again, the rules mandate limits on the boys making decisions, fixing mistakes, and perpetuating a smooth running operation. As an adult, I stay out of it and require no rules. The boys do just fine and first and foremost, they are happy with the way things are. After all, isn't that the ultimate goal for the boys? Build a working team and go after the adventure?

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/01/13/what-is-the-scouter-code-of-conduct/?utm_source=Volunteers&utm_campaign=f05ede39a3-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_18&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9777d746fe-f05ede39a3-207459917 Why in the world would we as Scouters need such a thing.... Oh, yeah, I forgot.