Stosh

As always, it would seem that the consensus of the problem lies in the definition of NSP, Traditional and Venture patrols. For the situation I have experienced, NSP are the cross-over boys. They tend to "stick together" on their own even if they come from different packs. They are all new, that's the common denominator. They are all working on the S->FC requirements, share a common goal of orienting themselves to the troop processes, and have an opportunity for leadership that isn't hindered by the older boys always "running the show" and having to compete with them for leadership positions. With the way the program is set up, these boys are still on the grade-school level of maturity trying to figure out how to spread their wings a bit and having the opportunity to do so without have to compete with scouts on the high school level and always losing out. It's their safe place to do it without disappointing anyone other than themselves. Summer camp at the local council camp might be just up their alley, but I have seen times when they wanted the big prize right off the bat and take on a camp outside of council. Many have been counciled out with too much Cub activity at the local camp. The traditional patrols are those that are focused on expanding their horizons while still having a finger in the pot for teaching the younger boys and helping the NSP patrols on an ad hoc basis and gaining some deeper levels of leadership for their own goals in scouting. Usually these are the 7-9th grade boys, i.e. middle school aged boys. The TG is gone now and the boys rely more on the PL/APL team for leadership direction. Summer camp might be the more primitive non-mess hall camps that offer them the opportunity to try the big stuff with a bit of a safety net in place. The venture patrols are the high school boys that have "been there, done that" and need to branch out big time to retain their interests. These are the boys that as a patrol will take on Philmont, BWCA or Sea Base in lieu of any summer camp. I have also had occasion for these boys to regularly take on long weekends of whitewater canoeing and or long trek bike hikes. Obviously they have the skills and experience to be able to pull this off as they so desire. These types of activities are taken off the table if the activities always have to take into consideration to the lowest common denominator of Webelos cross over boys as part of the patrol. The only solution is to break up the patrol and each go their own way to keep the older boys interested. It works, but it's not the patrol method. If left alone, I see the boys naturally following this progression through this patrol method/structure. So in order to accomplish what I would define as a "mixed patrol", it would have elements of all three mixed into one patrol. There would be the new boys that don't have the experience, maturity or age to pull off any venture patrol level activities on a regular basis. The patrol would need to be focused always on having S->FC training for one or two of the boys in the patrol which the older boys would need to be doing so after 4 years of training they spend the next three either breaking up their patrol so the new guys can get training and then having a partial patrol that would need to ad hoc with another patrol in order to do the occasional high adventure. This constant turmoil of having to cater to the lowest common denominator maintains the patrol in a blend of NSP/Traditional mode for the bulk of their activities. Losing interest in doing the same-old, same-old yet again will "encourage" the boys to start thinking about getting the Eagle and getting out to areas where they don't have to share the activity with grade school kids, but can design activities more acclimated to high school interests. I guess with the setup that I find most comfortable is that the boys DO listen to their PL's because it is constantly reinforced they are the ones in charge. So the PL can let their troublemakers know that if they want to be a problem, they can find somewhere else do be one, not in this patrol. So what has happened in my former troop (I have a new younger boy startup troop now so this doesn't apply) is that the cut-ups all gravitate to their own patrol. They are like minded, highly strung, and are often the most creative and form the strongest bonds of any of the patrols. They have a point to prove and often times turn themselves around and do very nicely if they survive their negative attitudes. Their patrol leader is "one of them" and the conflicts just don't seem to be as intense as a result. Their leadership nemesis is one of them and they soon realize that they can work around the issues and find common ground in the troop. They run probably the most independent patrol in the troop because they don't have the super scouts, jocks, and nerds in their group. I am surprised these Black Sheep boys have never picked the Black Sheep as their patrol name. In the long run when they figured out that no one is going to "tell them what they can or can't do" (either adult or youth) they settle down and turn into quite a handful in the long run. But I have seen Eagles come out patrols like this, too. Now, not every leader understands these kinds of dynamic, nor do they allow them to play out in the units they are responsible for. The adults will step in when the boys don't listen to their youth leadership. I don't. They move them around in the patrols to try and mitigate the disruptions, I don't. I just let the boys be who they are and most of them will find their niche and do very well. It's kinda hard waiting them out while they find their niche, but if allowed, they do quite nicely. Not only that if all the "troublemakers" are in a patrol of their own 300' away from everyone else, they don't disrupt the other boys. Put one or two of them in each patrol, and the whole troop will erupt in chaos. Not my idea of a good time. It works for me, your mileage may vary.

Probably not if one keeps throwing interceptions and fumbling the ball. One has to step up the basics and go back to what works, and that is an issue that is not being addressed.

From what I have observed from the actions of the boys over the years. Adult directed/assigned patrols: These groups never seem to "gel" or bond in many ways and often look forward to the annual re-mix after the new boys have gotten in their year of "training". Quite often the results of such draft assignments is the boys either become more or become less involved depending on the assignments. All the blame for all the problems falls on the adult leadership for making lousy selections. Because of this, I stay out of the patrol memberships because since I have become SM no one has ever complained about patrol membership blaming it on me. I like it that way. PLC directed/assigned patrols: Not much different than the adult assigned patrols. Boys still don't always match up with their natural groupings. In both cases, it is never obvious to anyone that anyone telling boys at this age who they can hang with and who they can't doesn't work. When the boys are left alone to pick their own patrols, they tend to do so with two focus in mind. 1) Birds of a feather and 2) prior friendships. The NSP all share a common history and tend to be someone close in maturity. They can all be taught by an Instructor all at the same time without breaking up patrols to do so. When 6th grade boys get put in a patrol with early to middle high school aged boys, there is quite a difference in interests, maturity and attitude. Then the older boys don't necessarily want to be the babysitters of the troop either. This isn't universal, so some boy may take on TG, Instructor, etc. to take on responsibility for the new scouts, but NOT ALL THE TIME. They, too, want time away for themselves and they can't do that if that means half the patrol has to disappear or they take on a high adventure trek so they have a valid excuse for dumping the new guys. The new guys in a mixed patrol will never feel bad about having the older boys doing all the work even if that means they get bullied in the process. If one is lucky one of the older boys is an older brother that can "protect you," but one can't always count on that. The only genuine knife fight I had to break up while in the Scouting program was between two brothers. They were both set to draw blood in the deal. Older boys want a program specifically for themselves, just as the NSP want a program designed around their needs as well. So, my new troop is basically finishing up the bulk of the boys' first year. There is no talk of changing any leadership positions and everyone seems happy with the way things are. The older boys are not challenging for leadership and are just sitting back and going along with the way things are. As long as things are running smoothly, I'm just going to let 'er ride. It's worked for me for many years, I don't plan on changing any time soon.

Even rats abandon a sinking ship.....

Some aren't given the chance to lead and end up not ready after 6 years. Take languages as an example. When learning a foreign language one takes a few classes and it takes forever to learn it. Take a few classes and go to that foreign country and become immersed in the language and one would be surprised how much faster they progress in the language skills. It's the same for leadership. If the adults never relinquish leadership, the boys will only learn about it in books. If they need to be the "older boys" then the younger ones' learning will be put on hold until they get older. The reason my new troop and when I had a larger troop previously, the NSP advance so quickly is because they actually have the opportunity to lead from the get go. They ar immersed in it and expected to succeed, and after many years I have seen boys progress further and more quickly than many of their counterparts. While the younger leaders may not be managerially well organized as the older boys, they tend to draw their boys quicker into teamwork to compensate for it. That cooperative survival teamwork seems to dissipate as they get older and more competitive.

Why is it we adults are so often blind to our own mistakes? Adults telling the boys how to be boy led? Doesn't anyone see the hypocrisy in all of that? As UC and even at time "listening" here on the forums, what some adults call boy led just doesn't make much sense. Unless one feels totally useless as a contributor to the operation of the scout unit, he/she's too involved! Train 'em -- okay, that's no problem. Trust 'em -- that's the hard part that many never get their heads around. Let 'em lead -- not until we trust them and that doesn't happen very often, if at all.

Organizational skill is not leadership, it's management and females do better with that in the fact that they do better with multi-tasking nurturing/feelings than do their competitive counterparts. Case in point: -> when some kid gets hurt to whom does he run? Dad who tells him to suck it up or Mom who comforts him and finds him a bandaid? One doesn't need to be chauvinistic to understand this, it's basic psychology which isn't just dependent on one's physical attributes.

BSA recommends 6-8 boys to a patrol. My boys seem to stick with that as a legitimate guideline. I'm not quite sure how the boys go about selecting membership, but if there is a 6 boy patrol, they recruit new members and if there's an 8 boy patrol, they don't. I have had larger patrols, but they eventually get down to the 6-8 range rather quickly, unfortunately the larger the group the looser the bonding between boys. Usually one or two will "not show up" and be removed from the membership and replaced with those that do show up. After a while these groupings solidify and they hang together quite well until they start aging out. Patrols that have this happen generally are not happy with having to replace seasoned veteran scouts with "younger ones". The mixed aged patrol seem to suffer the most from this process. When they all age out the same year, it's not a big deal because the patrol just ceases to exist. Boys in the venture patrols generally migrate to the Leadership Corps as the patrol dissolves with age. One of my older boys went back and became a DC, another TG, still others did the Instructor bit just to be on the LC roster.

It's pretty easy to promise to do one's duty to God when one doesn't believe in one. Unfortunately it kinda takes the wind out of the sails at the same time.

I just let the boys decide, they tend towards age basis of friends. New scouts can hang together or join an existing patrol if there is room. Sometimes they go with older brothers, sometimes they don't. Patrol membership is totally the boys' choice. They can change membership whenever they want,too. I don't care unless it causes problems.

I'm not so sure boys of this age are "not looking for adventure." Maybe the world has changed and today's youth is summed up in the latest version of some video game on the market that they live vicariously in the safety of their parent's basement. That wasn't the case in years gone by and maybe the world has changed and left BSA holding the bag. If it has then nothing's going to resurrect it to anything other than a mere shadow of it's former glory. I have always loved the out-of-doors. I cannot remember the days before my family went camping....every weekend during the summer until I went off to college. My father sold off his motorhome when he lost his driver's license at age 85. Even with a background like that I found a poorly run scout troop offers nothing that something else can't do better. 4 years of Cub Scouts, got out as soon as I was old enough and never received the Lion or Webelos awards. I have no idea whether AOL was even an option. In Scouts I put in 4 more years and never got past 2nd Class. As a group en mass my buddies and I all went over to Civil Air Patrol and nothing could beat doing real search and rescue operations. That was real adventure and the leaders there treated everyone like adults and gave us opportunities to experience things that we never thought possible in scouting. Never looked back until my son was old enough for Tigers. He quit at Star rank. Everyone has a story, not everyone ends up with an Eagle and even if they do, they don't offer back to the world around them that simple basic Scouting once provided. I have volunteered for community groups like starting an ambulance service, 45 years ago my college buddies and I started our local food pantry, I have started a church, I have put in 1500+ hours in the past 6 months for Red Cross, I work with my church youth group on a weekly basis as I do with the Boy Scouts. Did any of this have to do with the fact that I put 4 years of poor BSA programming in to get 2nd Class been a cause for all this. Not likely. So, am I so wrapped up in Scouting that this political agenda of National is going to make any difference to me? Probably not, because I can think of at least 5 or 6 other volunteer opportunities out there that could benefit from my skills. I have walked away from various positions in Scouting, I have walked away from units, I have never felt that all the political drama generated by certain small-minded people warrant my continued involvement. I do believe there is something written somewhere that states that if not welcomed, knock the dust from your sandals and move on to a more productive opportunity. I am the advisor for my church's youth group. It's co-ed. No problem, worked with such groups all my life. No political regenderization hassles they have a solid moral code. The rules are simple and they don't change. I can go and simply have a great time. The kids are having the whole congregation next Sunday make Valentine's Day cards (leadership project for the kids) working with adults (adult association) and with the help of another youth group from the same church denomination the next town over, will deliver them to all the residents in the various nursing homes. Afterwards, pizza and games to socialize. ALL DESIGNED AND SET UP BY THE YOUTH! Kinda like a Scout program. Next month another team (patrol) will be making lap blankets for the congregation's shut-in elderly by working with the ladies sewing group. The youth are taking the lead on it. What I am trying to say, the BSA program really works and works fantastic, once the political drama is removed from the picture.

God created free will, it is us that screw things up in this world. We keep slamming our fingers in the door and blaming God for all the pain he creates. Our human blindness is well documented in the realm of psychology. Our inability to take the blame for what we do to hurt others is well documented as well and the story goes on and on. Like our finger prints, no two of us are alike. We are all born with various shortcomings that will either strengthen our character or break our spirits. THE CHOICE of free will determines who we are. Simply ignoring our short-comings and blaming society, God, Satan and the President for all our ills solves nothing, but the blindness to our human nature cripples us in the process. No one was born perfect. Once we have established that, we can move on to dealing with ourselves and how we fit into the world which we all share. Mandating everyone to conform to oneself hasn't worked from day one and no one has been able to change that. Move on, stagnation does not build character, it only victimizes, beats down and destroys oneself in the end.

MB schools and summer camp schools are nothing more than adult inventions to speed up and guarantee Eagle rank for the boys. It is a racket in my book. While it was not a MB, I have had boys receive the Totin' Chit and when asked what they did to get that piece of paper, they don't really know. That's really a poor commentary on the quality of "instruction" going on at scout organized activities where advancement and MB's are involved.

That's not the way things work on this end of the stick. It's a sash and dash for the adults as well. I was nominated and called out (I thought they were calling out my son,???) Anyway, I did ordeal and brotherhood and offered my services many times to the lodge and it was always met with silence. After a while I just gave up. In the past 25 years I have received 2 newsletters from the lodge.... I think they were both mistakenly addressed to me. I have no other explanation for it. I don't even get information from the lodge as SM of a troop.

You weren't supposed to do the math. I have 3 pair of binoculars hidden behind the seat of my pickup truck. I was hoping the boys wouldn't have broken the tie so I could have gotten rid of two of them. We're both outdoors types and so after getting married we realized that it wasn't just two of everything in many cases. I have enough inventory to keep prizes out there for boys for years.

I have the magic elixir that will solve all the BSA's problems. We're going to go co-ed, YPT will apply and everyone will totally elated..... Until the girl who thinks she's a boy won't sleep with the other girls..... and "her" parents sue the unit for discrimination. One can spend an enormous amount of time, effort and verbiage trying to get to the bottom of the bottomless pit. As long as there are people out there that want to change the rules of the game every time they get a wild hair, no one is ever going to win. There are people out there that want nothing more than to play the game of "Drama". The only way to win is to walk away from the game. Good luck with that. You're never going to win. The quicker one realizes that, the happier they are going to be.

Growing up during the "adolescent" years is always a struggle. Boys of this age are pushing the envelop, developing more mature relationships, seeking a higher level of adventure. To put this in adult-speak, they are more rebellious, hang out with the wrong crowd and get into trouble. My wife, my kids, and a lot of people around me keep telling me I need to grow up, but it's only because I can still see the world from the viewpoint of a youngster. One's child looses interest for a lot of reasons, most of them are misdiagnosed by adults. They blame the fumes, work, etc. a whole bunch of stuff, but NEVER, EVER do they blame themselves! Pushing the envelop? - How many adults still treat them like children? Yep, they don't trust them because they are going to do something really stupid.... YES THEY WILL, but scouting should be the safe place to do that!!! It's call boy leadership and the patrol method community in which to operate. Adults stifle that at every opportunity in an adult directed troop. Developing mature relationships? - Yes, people of this age gang up in groups for tribal protection. This has been going on for thousands and thousands of years. This is nothing new, but for some reason adults today say so. It's a myth! The esprit-de-corps develop in a patrol can be just as strong as the bonding of brotherhood in the military in the similar years of growth. The boys will hang with a gang, why not allow it in scouting instead of the neighborhood streets. Seeking greater adventure? - So, other than advanced babysitting, what is the BSA providing these boys when it comes to adventure? Nil? Nada? Zilch? Nothing? Yep. But we offer Philmont, Bechtel, Sea Base, Northern Tier! But did anyone ever stop and ask if that's what the boys want? What if they think the greatest adventure is a weekend away at the local scout camp with NO adults, PERIOD. We'll call when we're ready to come home. It'll never happen in the BSA and.... and..... and get this! They will be in major trouble if they ever try something like this on their own!!! OMG! Now wouldn't that be a great adventure! It's time everyone stops wracking their brains asking what it's going to take to keep these boys in scouting and simply go and ask them! They already know the answers.

The last person that can hold a child in disciplinary check is never the parent. One does not bring the full force of parenthood down on their child outside the home. Kids know this and thus whatever they do may be punished, but, heck, they live in the present, who cares. So parental effectiveness is pretty much a grand idea at best. As mentioned, all disciple for one's own children should be done by another scouter. If there are more than 2 leaders, tag teaming is even better. One own child will normally feel that as long as their parent is the leader they will receive entitlement privilege....which in most cases is true. The parents who think this might happen will overly react the other direction and hold their own children to a far higher standard than any of the other scouts. This dove-tails into the other thread where the scout is losing interest, he feels he is in a no-win situation so why keep trying. Relax, don't ignore your son, but don't interact with him any different than if he was some other leader's son. Then deal with that leader as if your son was his. So your son is acting up, address the problem with the other leader and ask him why he thinks it's okay for that scout to act up. His initial reaction will be, "Because he's your son!" To which the response is, "Not during scouts, I expect he be taken care of by my leadership corps." When my son was in scouts, this worked really well. Now that my son is no longer in scouts, I don't have to worry about it anymore.

If one does not seek the problem, all they do is assuage the symptoms. BSA used to be an organization that built character, leadership through physical strength, mental clarity and a moral foundation. So as the need for such things declined so did the membership. That's not rocket science, it's common sense. So the knee jerk reaction to the situation is to alter the program to "meet the needs of today's youth." or put in more explicit words of the BSA, drop the character building, the leadership development, the physical necessities, the mental clarity and moral fortitude. One can either stand firm on a solid foundation of historic success, or they can simply be whisked away with the winds of fickle fate of the ever changing society. That which once held society firm has now gone adrift and is seeking whatever happens along the way as the answer du jour. I guess the modern scout may say they are not ready to pass over to the dark side when in fact that's the course outlined by the society in which he exists. On the other hand what is being offered him that will hold him firm in his convictions toward, character, leadership, etc. While the adults argue and flounder, the children suffer.

One often times finds themselves in the middle of confusion when an issue suddenly take a sharp turn off the trail. The thread deals with OA sashes, the resurrected topic was something altogether off topic. It was pointed out in my response to the title, Scout Sunday is NOT an OA event, and then proceeded to answer the secondary thread, wear the MB sash. The next two threads affirmed that. So where's the confusion coming from? @@Chadamus, please be so kind as to start a new thread so as to start another thread so the rest of us won't try and clarify things too much. "Resurrecting an old thread to ask a similar question without starting a new one:" ...and so we see the veering off trail at this point. Check! Course correction procedures enacted. "Merit Badge sashes during a Scout Sunday service: yay or nay?" The OA handbook explicitly states the OA sash is not to be worn except at OA activities. Scout Sunday is not an OA activity. With my keen Sherlock Holmes sleuthing skill, I deduce that the OA sash should not be worn on Scout Sunday. Hold that thought til the end. "I cannot find any official answer." See above from the OA manual. So that leaves us with the MB sash. That can be worn at any time, it is part of the uniform, just like the socks, the belt, the pants, the shirt, the hat, the patches ... Now, with that being said, often times the sash is not worn during field activities. The scout uniform is also known as the field uniform and is to be worn for all scout activities. Yet, according to the Inspection form (BSA official one) the sash is not included because it is an auxiliary piece of uniform to "dress it up" so to speak for the special occasions such as COH's and Scout Sunday and maybe official presentations of sorts in the community. It, however, would not be considered out of "full uniform" such as when scouts substitute socks, drop the belt, go with basketball shorts or sweat pants for trousers and their favorite sports team's cap and still call it a "uniform" Therefore for Scout Sunday, I would wear dress shoes, scout socks, uniform pants, BSA belt, shirt, MB sash for youth, all the medallions and a hat to be removed if necessary. These are the things required for National Jamboree, one should make the effort for Scout Sunday. If one goes to an event over dress, he can always dress down to casual. If one goes to an event under dress, he can either leave or look like the slob he has come dressed as. We all have our choices. The BSA Inspection Sheet gives the official definition of appropriately dressed for a Scout event. So, Can the MB be worn to worship in Scout Sunday? The answer is NO... It SHOULD be worn as part of the dressed up field uniform. "Thanks in advance!" You're welcome.... I think.

Let me take a stab at this. The "school" (CO) sets certain standards for it's members. Public chools allow atheists, scout units do not. So there's just one of many conflicts that bump together and makes it impossible for a public school to charter a unit. Private schools do not need to meet federal membership laws and so that wouldn't apply to this issue. This is why we have Catholic, Lutheran, and other parochial schools with scout units. Even when the "school" unit was defined, in most cases the CO was not the school but a parent group that held the charter. The PTA/PTO or some other school/community based organization. As far as the access to facilities is concerned, if a school is open to Miss Molly's Sewing Club, they cannot be prejudicial in their acceptance of other groups using the facilities. So the scouts can use the facilities just as Miss Molly's Sewing Club and the KKK and the NAACP, BLM, church groups and individuals. I hope this helps explain that Chartering a unit and providing facilities are really apples and oranges. I really don't think there are any public schools out there that are chartering units. Does anyone know?

Well, this is one of the most confusing issues I have ever seen on this forum, too. When people start making up new definitions to circumvent the world that has been defined since the dawn of written history, it tends to get a bit confusing. It might be a bit segregationalist in nature to avoid such situations, but for the sake of personal safety in many instances, it is the choice I am choosing to take. I do believe I still have the right to associate with whomever I choose.

This post has been removed for obvious reasons.

All of the boys in my troop are first year scouts except for one older boy. We went on our winter cabin camping weekend this weekend. It would seem that my wife's cleaning around the house surfaced 3-4 pair of binoculars, some still in their original packages. She told me, she didn't care, just get rid of them. So, last Friday when we got to the weekend, I announced that on Sunday it will be decided that the scout that shows the most Scout Spirit (according to the Oath and Law) would get a prize. That's all I said. Throughout the weekend, the boys thought about this and constantly asking me questions like: "Who is going to make the decision?", "Can an adult win it?", etc. I didn't say anything, just let it ride. As always my mantra was used a lot "Not my problem." By Saturday night's melt down (I was waiting for the PL to step up and quiet things down, maybe the APL would say something, boys were complaining to me, waking me up from my "nap", etc. the PL finally came to me and said with the way things were going, there probably wasn't going to be any scout winning the "prize", which caused me great angst in that I had to get ride of the binoculars somehow. Things quieted down and this morning things were down to cleaning up the cabin and getting packed up before noon. It was decided the adult were to make the decision,... Not my problem. The prize wasn't really worth it, probably just a candy bar or something. Finally they somehow got it down to 2 boys that really worked hard on getting the cabin in order. They came to me to ask me to vote to break the tie. Not my problem. They then went to the ASM and asked him to vote and break the tie. He said, "Not my problem." Finally they came up with their pick (would have been mine, too!) The last I saw of the winner he was getting into his parent's car still wearing his new binoculars around his neck. Oh, by the way, did I mention these were first year scouts, none of which have yet earned their TF? It's too bad we don't have older scouts to mentor and guide them...... (or get in their way!.... same for adults.....) Good weekend all the way around. Youth leadership and patrol method really do work!

Whether it says so in any official print doesn't alter the reality of any SM's actions in the field.