Stosh

My bad.... Girl Guides were started by Lord Baden-Powell and his sister Agnes Baden-Powell because girls wanted into the program. Lord Baden-Powell's answer to that - have a separate program oriented for girls with the same goals as the boys. The WAGGGS still is single gender female after 100+ years as envisioned by BP, but the boy side caved and went co-ed. So where the female program has stayed loyal to it's heritage, the male program has not.

Careful, the next thing that's gonna happen is the non-coffee people will insist the coffee drinkers have to drink tea......

If that be the case, why did Lady Powell start the Girl Guides.... ?

White knot on a white background??? Naw, that'll never work.

I have never had an Eagle project rejected for approval. I have had them questioned once or twice. My boys do a lot of "preliminary" Eagle projects throughout their scouting career getting ready for the "big show". They seek out, develop a plan and run service projects all the time. The older they get the more they "put it down on paper" and review it with an AAR with the other scouts. Sometimes they invite my thoughts on it. As a result there has never been any need for an Eagle advisor, mentor, helicopter parents, etc. From start to finish they just do their project. I "glance" over their application for approval write up, but rely more on their explanation of what they want to do. If their spelling or grammar is not up to par? -- not my problem, not my project. If they are missing required items in the write up? -- not my problem, not my project. All in all, I have enjoyed working on the Eagle projects, but then again, I do like being outdoors getting my hands dirty. As far as the leadership part of the process, the Eagle project is often viewed as "outside the realm" of Scouting because it often incorporates non-scout personnel and it benefits a non-scout organization. The troop tags along because most of these projects are really a lot of fun.

Sit in the back of the room with a cup of coffee and wait for the boys to inquire about something if they so choose. Otherwise, get a refill and repeat.

@@Cambridgeskip offers a litany of women moving into the male dominated areas of society. Yet, where's the list of where men are allowed into a female dominated areas of society? I had many years of adult leadership in many organizations, community, religious and Boy Scouting. Yet when my daughters were in GS/USA I offered up my expertise and was rejected because they wanted women running their troops. When I was looking for employment I applied for a position in the local GS/USA offices and having sent in an application and resume, did not hear back from them but the help wanted ad stayed in the newspaper for a month afterwards. Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways. I cook, I sew, I do laundry and I clean house, I do needlepoint and embroidery, and many other traditional "female" skills, yet the stares I get are all the same. I would try Heritage Girls, but I really don't like wasting my time, I have limited volunteering time in my life to waste it on political agendas. I have 1700+ hours of volunteering for the American Red Cross since June 1st of last year. I have gone on two disaster relief operations one in Louisiana, one in South Carolina and today I am clearing my calendar with backup people for my church youth group and Scout troop because I might get deployed to Northern California to do another disaster relief operation because of the 180,000 people evacuated from the possible dam breech. Maybe if some of these people with political agendas ever decide to roll up their sleeves and "help other people at all times" instead of whining about not getting an Eagle medallion, something more constructive can be accomplished.

In our council the NYLT program is run entirely by the boys. Management and organization is a mixed adult/youth process, but the actual course is taught by the youth to youth. About 6 years ago we had a heavily populated adult staff of NYLT and everyone was going out of council to get NYLT. Now that it is exclusively youth lead, our people have returned and out of council boys are signing up as well.

What? Advancement is a method of Scouting? I thought ti was THE goal of Scouting. Silly me!

There is no such thing as scientific inquiry into the supernatural. There is only the scientific known and the scientific unknown. Religion is the acceptance of of the unknown. It's similar to the scientific theories we have today. That which we cannot prove is accepted as logical speculation. The Theory of Evolution cannot be proven, but people today believe it is true because of logical (knowledge based) assumptions.Space warp travel through worm holes has not been proven but there are those that believe it's possible. The list of what scientists believe and what can be proven indicate the human tendency towards faith. They want it to be true, they believe it to be true, but it cannot be proven. Thus the foundation for religion.

If getting Eagle is the only reason for going co-ed, then hand out Eagles like candy, the reason for the Eagle is lost to history. It's been going downhill for years, this would make it the last step. It is truly a shame that it has become nothing more than a reference on a college application and a footnote on a business resume. It's not a Scouting rank, it's a magical talisman instead of a level of an indicator of male character and moral development.

I have been involved with youth for 45+ years now and many of those religious and community organizations are co-ed. It's not that I'm against co-ed programs. It's just that the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts in America have been separate since the beginning and I feel that they offer a unique alternative to other youth programs. Why can the youth have their own sex based program? It's the last such nationally recognized such organization available. Once it's gone, there will be just a few peripheral programs still out there that don't hold the popularity of the Boy and Girl Scout program. It would be a shame that in the name of diversity it be abandoned. For this reason alone, I'm with @@The Latin Scot on this one. -- "It reminds me of something about which I constantly have to remind my students and Cub Scouts - despite what modern opinions try to teach people, FAIR does not mean everybody gets the same thing. FAIR means everybody gets what they earn." except I would change the last part to everybody gets what they want. Girls and boys should have at least one option of a program designed specifically for boys and girls separately.

Slight correction here. Agnostic - A = not or without gnostic = knowledge. Without knowledge. You were correct when you indicated "Some agnosticism says that God is unknowable" This is a process of knowing or knowledge, not belief. Belief is the acceptance of an idea that IS unknowable. Apples and oranges operating here. Unless one knows they aren't going to accept anything, meaning if it can be sensed with any of the 5 senses it is not real. An A-theists = A = not or without theism = God/god. Without G/god. They actually do believe, but their belief is there is no G/god. They have a belief system the opposite of the Theist. Now there may be a few that will argue those definitions, but those are the etymology of the two words. I'm sure the Agnostic has put a bit of thought into the process, but has concluded there is no way of knowing. They just leave it at that.

Yep, nothing worse than creating a war so our peacetime soldiers have something to do.

I like the idea of cooking for other scouts, whether it be your patrol or another patrol. If one opened it up just a group of people, the scout could figure it would be his family. If he poisons them with his cooking, he could be in big trouble.

Krampus is Santa Claus's buddy in folklore. Next time I'll use Santa Claus so as to not confuse everyone.

As the SM I am focused on the functionality of my youth leadership and those holding POR's. What the adults do I don't even think about unless they are themselves dysfunctional in their support of the boys. Even then, when that happens I don't do anything to wedge myself into the issue. It's not my problem, I don't get involved. The COR needs to be doing his/her job. When and if that happens, the only people being hurt are the boys. This adult drama in a youth program just isn't worth the hassle. Units don't fall apart because of the boys, they fall apart because of the adults.

One weekend outings it's only the ALICE or BSA Yucca packs for me. Only if I'm going to be out for a week does the modern backpack make it off he shelf.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I thought you were expressing concern about some problems. After re-reading your comments more carefully, I understand better, my bad. Sorry. As long as one can run a boy led, patrol method program where the adults aren't getting blamed for interfering, one can't fail in the long-run. If the boys like breaking up the NSP after a year, then that's great. If they want to stay together, that's great, as long as they make the decisions, I don't have a problem with it. My boys generally stay together in the NSP and transition as a whole into a traditional patrol. If a few want to go into other patrols, that's their choice. If after a year or so in the NSP and the boys are trying to gouge out each other's eyes, then letting them separate out whenever they want. I don't hold my boys in the NSP any longer than they want and if right from the git-go they want other patrols, then we don't have a NSP that year. That's never happened. We have had a few boys individually opt out of the NSP in the beginning, but it was their choice. No adults are involved in the membership and/or leadership decisions of the patrols.

Love the logic, it's totally the opposite of what I have seen. Teams that play in tough divisions are stronger than those that compete with teams that provide no competition. We had a large school in a rural area of the state that went to the state championship EVERY YEAR. They had no competition from all the little schools surrounding them. And every year they lost the first game of the tournament because the urban schools learned to play hard ball for a whole season. I heard our local coach give a speech to the citizens in town after winning the state championship. Our boys are good, the boys that sit the bench are just as good. The reason? Without a strong B-team on the bench to give them strong competition during practice every week, the A-team would never have made it. Playing weak competition is like bench pressing 5#'s instead of 50#'s.

“A house built on lies has a weak foundation.†― Brom, Krampus: The Yule Lord I think this the core of the argument that the future of BSA is going to build upon. Drop the "BOY" from BSA and go co-ed and get honest with scouting once more. This halfway position built on lies continues to crumble into a slow death anyway.

Welcome to the forum @@richie0829 First of all there is no such thing as the Scouts "convincing" the adults of anything in a adult run troop. This troop is not functioning as a BSA troop. There must be a poor SM who allows this discourse between committee and the troop. The boys have a couple of choices. 1) Go provisional to any camp in the US or Canada you wish to go to. 2) Get a few buddies together and go provisional in any camp in the US or Canada you wish to go to. 3) Everyone comes down with "khaki-flu" and go camping where you want for a week with your buddies without the uniforms (and adults). One doesn't need merit badges, just fun, take fishing poles. 4) Leverage your position, insist on all adults getting trained in the BSA patrol method where the boys are trained in leadership or find another troop that is. Then as a whole, follow through. It is quite obvious from the comments and the digging in of heels, that if the boys think they are paying for a BSA program of leadership and character development, one can be assured that what they are getting doesn't come from BSA. In my troop, the boys have always been expected to select the summer camp, weekend camp, activity of their choice. The only time I as SM put my foot down and say no is when the activity is prohibited by BSA (paint-ball, for example), there are safety issues involved (Acapulco cliff diving, for example) or is not a scout activity (LAN parties, political parties, and frat-like parties, for example) So, here's the deal. The boys can continue like they are and slowly everyone will quit once they have had enough of these adult shenanigans or the boys can step up to the plate, start learning about the BSA program of boy led, patrol method operations and then politely, calmly, and with all "due respect", announce that the troop will from this point on be run according to BSA standards. If one is posting this thread in the first place, it sounds as if one is old enough to start learning and leading the troop. No summer camp this year - send all the eligible boys to NYLT training instead. Send all the non-eligible boys to the current camp just to buy enough time for the 13+ year old scouts to get properly trained in proper troop operations and next fall, start running your troop with well-trained and real Scout leadership. It's time for the boys to step up to the plate. Seriously? If one reads the BSA literature, the boys really don't need the adults at all, they are just their to babysit their cups of coffee and jaw-jack around their own campfire 300' away. Make it work!

With a non-existent PL/APL team and a dysfunctional TG, I would want to get out of there, too! Sounds like a recipe for disaster. If his is how the NSP is run, I can see why it fails. My PL/APL have the opportunity to be fully functional right from the beginning. With my current situation of a new troop I don't have the luxury of a TG and with no older scouts, I have made a pact with my troop that I will teach all the S->FC skills ONCE. They had better pay attention, and they do. Just this last weekend they were (on their own) making rope and whipping the ends. A couple of the boys that missed that session earlier when I taught it, got caught up with it when the other boys (Scout Rank) taught them. I have one TF scout, 3 Scout scouts and 2 still struggling to get off the ground. Neither the PL nor the APL is the TF scout. They are never too young to learn and they are never too young to lead. Just give them the chance.

That's what the TG and Instructors are supposed to be doing, but they can do that without taking away the leadership responsibilities of the NSP PL/APL team. A domineering TG can be just as destructive to the patrol as an adult. And by the way at the end of the first year, the boys don't NEED to go into other patrols unless they want to. Bug difference if forced to.

Gee During the Vietnam War: 1) I carried a Student Deferment 2) I carried a Conscientious Objector Deferment 3) I carried a Seminary Religious Deferment 4) I carried a 4-F Medical Deferment 5) I tried to enlist as a chaplain in the Navy and was rejected I guess that puts me in the Draft Dodger category......