Stosh

Of course I'm kidding. But one has to wonder how in depth the thought processes have to go to get to the sales pitch. If I said adult association to a single mom it might spark something for her and her son. Even Character development, too. But to say OUTDOOR ADVENTURE to a boy his eyes light up. Not necessarily for the gamer in the basement or the girl who's more interested in dance recitals. Seriously we have a group in our area that has a baton twirling group that marches in parades throughout the state. They have a huge contingent that needs a semi truck to haul around their equipment and a bus or two to get everyone to an event. Yet after seeing them for 40+ years I have never seen a boy in the group. They have a gimmick and it works for them, but not on boys.

One does certain things to earn a knot award, whether it be tenure, participation and/or training. At the end one is awarded a knot. I can be 5 years into scouting and earn that award or simply be nominated for it. But it builds on nothing like a level of ranking would provide. I know of boys who were never a Tiger, Wolf or Bear but earned AOL similar to how one earns the knots. On the other hand I have yet to hear of any Eagle Scout that didn't first earn the ranking levels of Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star and Life first. Those are rankings. Through popular usage the Cubs are called ranks, but it tends to be confusing to parents coming into Cub Scouts not having been involved in the Wolf and Bear program. It appears to them as something their boys "missed". If that be the popular misconception how many boys do we miss getting into the program if they feel they have missed an opportunity. To reiterate how important it is we correct this misconception, I have had boys tell me their friends don't join Boy Scouts because they never were a Cub Scout. That line of thinking is not what I want floating around the neighborhood. I don't think it too farfetched to think there might be those out there that believe if one misses out at the start in order to get Eagle they have to go through the Tiger to Life progression. It's no different than the ranking of the school system. No one graduates High School unless they first have passed K-11 rankings.

Now there's a catchy idea that will draw in many parents..... Of course that doesn't do much good on any promotional material the Scouts may be using for recruitment.

If a boy joins Cub Scouts at the Webelos level he does not need to go back and earn the Wolf and Bear "rank"/award. He doesn't even need to earn the Webeos, The only award that he can get if he gets is the AOL if he joins during Webelos II. No one waltzes into the army and immediately gets bestowed the rank of general. On the other hand, a boy joining Boy Scouts has to "come through the ranks" even if he joins at age 15. Ranks involve a progression through experience and skills gained. Neither of those is required for Cub Scouts. And award is an award, a rank is an earned designation based on experience and skill levels.

Not necessarily.

As mentioned in other posts scouting has a strong social dynamic to it that maybe STEM, sports and career oriented programs do not. In Cub Scouts rank advancement is non-existent and an award system is used instead. This means it is not expected that the scout progress through any particular skill achievement. Instead the boys are there to have fun, whether it be a game, a craft project a derby competition or a day in the woods hiking with one's friends. Boy Scouts add to that a progression of skill, leadership and character development because the boys are older and can handle the additional challenge. The games, projects and competitions are still there. The specialty of Scouting both for males as well as females is this unique opportunity is done within age as well as sexual considerations. Cub Scout programs tend to not address activities that are not of a male oriented interest.. Socially they get plenty of inter sexual contexts in school, church and park playgrounds but not those that will be of general sex oriented interests. Whereas clothing styles might appeal more to what interest the female population it doesn't do much for males. And vice versa, girls might not be into guns and hunting as much as males generally are. I'm not saying there isn't opportunities for a few here and there, generally the interests do vary among individuals. But as a group they tend to take certain tracks, for good or for bad. At this point, BSA and GS/USA have a distinct advantage in this area that will go away as an option and the program will devolve into a more general interest of both male and female with nothing out there unique for boys or girls alone. I think this dynamic will be lost to scouting if they go co-ed and now have to compete with schools, churches and Y's that offer that kind of programming. Going head-to-head with these other groups puts them in direct competition with them with no unique aspects to tilt the scales. 4-H with 3 times the membership could in fact be advantage over the competition. Like Gypsy Rose Lee said, "Ya gotta have a gimmick!" What's BSA's gimmick to set them apart? And by the way, how many of us guys didn't have a secret club house growing up that had a sign on the door "No Girls Allowed"? Same for the gals. Maybe we ought to take our cue from our childhood. Kids today are no different than when we were that age.

I was not proposing going over 32 as ideal, my proposal was to offer a solution when and if that were to happen. I do not like the idea of turning anyone away from a troop and if the troop starts to grow beyond 32, there can be some adjustments made to accommodate the growth without having to go to all the 36 member troop break down into 2 18 member troops. New CO, second SM/ASM team, another committee, etc. just go with the flow and make sure every boy has an opportunity for scouting.

Oh, don't get me wrong! My children and I all have a strong belief in Santa Claus and God. From an early age, on, my children and I faithfully hung our stockings out on St. Nicholas day (December 6th) and they hung there all through the season of Christmas, (January 5th). Santa was the joy of Christmas giving to those we love and so if any artwork from school came home during that time, it was put in someone's stocking. Maybe it was a candy bar for the kids, maybe it was something they made from school for us. The kids made gifts for each other and shared among themselves, too. Santa was alive and well in our family, but they weren't lied too either. When my oldest was just beyond the toddler stage, we were at the local mall and of course they had Santa's Workshop set up so kids could get their picture taken with Santa. We were there midweek and the shopping crowd was very light. We walked by to see the decorations and stuff and Santa called out, "Do you want to come and tell me what you want for Christmas?" She waved back and said she had to do something first. She insisted that the traditional Santa likes cookies so we had to go over to the shop that sells cookies and she had me buy one cookie. She then went back to Santa crawled up into his lap and whispered in his ear, "You're not really Santa, I am." and gave him the cookie. He took her by the hand and brought her back over to us and thanked us for the best Christmas gift he had ever gotten. Sometimes children's literal realities beat out their fantasies in spades. God is not a fantasy to my children.

Children, like any other person, have skills and talents that over the course of time are slowly developed. Whether it be a skill, a relationship, or plan for their future. My youngest daughter did well in school. People talk about left brain/right brain fostering either strong artistic abilities vs.strong analytical abilities. Well, she was endowed with both. She is a fantastic artist. I have a great piece of her work hanging in my living room right now. She has performed many times in high school and community theater productions. And yet she won the over all school award for Mathematics and graduated Valedictorian of her class, a large class from a large high school. She won a full ride scholarship for electrical engineering at Marquette University. Yet after two years of study there she came to me in tears and told me all she wanted to do in life was to be a stay-at-home mom and raise children. I told her to go for it and don't worry about what others think, it's your life. She is now happily married and has two great kids. I couldn't be any more proud of her even if I could. I never told her to be an artist, I never told her to be an electrical engineer, I only told her to be what she wanted to be. So, how many 5 or 6 year old kids know what they are or what they want to be at that age and what happens when parents, outsiders, society try to tell them what they are or should be. I see it occurring everyday all over the place.Just let them be who they are and wait and see what they become. They don't need to be told. Parents who interfere in this process run the risk of being abusive, domineering and contrary to health and well-being of the child. Growing up is difficult in and of itself, they don't need abusive parental and societal interference in the process. My oldest daughter told me once that she wanted to be a glitter artist when she grew up. Eventually she told me she absolutely hates glitter. So when she was older I sent her one of those cards that when opened exploded glitter all over the place. It took me two days of cleaning her house to get back into her good graces. I hate glitter now, too.

So it is okay to say to a small child you can believe that Santa is "real" and pass it off with a wink and nod as a childhood fantasy. Yet we expect them to then believe that God is not a childhood fantasy, too? How's a developing child supposed to interpret that concept? They trust the word of their parents and if they can betray them just as well with God, their sexuality, their intelligence and anything else that comes from their comments. This is why once they pass through and work out which of their parents' comments may be truthful and which ones might not, the come to grips with some sort of variant conclusion of their own. Sure most give up on Santa, but he's still around, one's intelligence is always ify depending on one's report card as proof one way or another, and one's sex is as well if there's a whole world is still promoting the idea that it is real. That's a pretty heavy burden to dump on small children. We as parents chose to go with honesty as a policy so my kids never believed in Santa, but they have a strong belief in their religion, they believed in their potential intellectually, one graduated Valedictorian and are assured in their scientifically proven sexuality. To this day they still trust in what we tell them as to what we believe is the truth.

God doesn't have a "name" he has a label. God is the label, Lord is his title, but there is no "name". There is a great disconnect between the Greco-Roman use of the word and the Hebraic use. We "Gentiles" read into it a different definition of "name" than the Hebrews do.

I'm just pointing out that adults betray their children all the time. Why would it thus not be impossible to confuse them with their sexual identification? My children never believed in Santa, the Tooth Fairy nor the Easter Bunny. They grew up just fine..... and my grandchildren do not believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy nor the Easter Bunny either. My one daughter was into glitter and nail polish and the other blue jeans and flannel shirts. People at times asked me if the one was a lesbian. I always said no she wasn't. She's happily married and has a child of her own who is growing up just fine except when she wears her pink tutu with her blue jeans bib overalls. Looks kinda strange, but she's happy.

What did Santa bring you last Christmas? Oh, did the tooth fairy come last night? How about the Easter Bunny was he at your house? No wonder children grow up not trusting a word that comes out their parents' mouth.

And yet one could make the argument that if 4-H is doing STEM, the schools are doing STEM, why would the BSA need to be doing STEM? One would think that with a different developmental plan these other programs can easily out compete the BSA. 4-H has it's outdoors as part of its programming, as do schools, Y's, and other community groups as well. They probably do it at a far greater level, but none of these programs offer the diversity the BSA has to offer. Yes a religious organization might have an outdoor retreat aspect of their program, but it is a small part of it and they don't worry as much about scoutcraft because they have adults running it, something which BSA tries to put into the hands of youth. Last summer my church youth group went rock climbing. I was a bit nervous, but most of the kids knew what they were doing because they had learned the skill in school and now were applying it in the church's youth program. Each one of these opportunities for youth seem to be isolated and restricted and not the main focus of the program. Traditional BSA incorporates a larger span of opportunities all in one program. That is it's competitive edge. No, it is not open to females because as part of it's traditional mission it is open only to males. GS/USA is like minded in this approach but for females only. It is an alternative to co-ed for those who wish a purely unisex approach. Instead of the chameleon approach of trying to duplicate every youth program in the market, it is always better to be the best in just one or two niche markets. This is something the "everything for everyone" approach has tended to avoid. No, the BSA cannot be everything to everybody, nor should it even try. Church don't do it and are still successful, schools don't do it, but they have the tax funds to do more than the average non-profits. Community programs don't do it. They all try and specialize in what they do best. Outdoor programs focus on going outdoor and do not focus on leadership development. 4-H has leadership development, but try and do more with outdoors, as well as STEM, and other means along the way. Sports used to be unisexed, but that is changing and the dynamics have had to change with it. Churches focus on ministry and that may include an outdoor retreat. If BSA tries to "do it all" it may not be in its best interest because it might be watering down what they do best. One only has so much energy and to have a focus on a goal is always far more productive than the shotgun approach of trying to do too much with the limited resources. So what does the BSA do best? Well, in order to be everything to everyone, they have become a Jack-of-all-trades rather than a mastercraftsman.

And yet during that "phase" they are going through they may not be wanting male moral development, that which the program offers. Males wishing to be female doesn't make sense in a male development program. And yet females wish to be male would get instruction in that, but when the end their phase the development is of no real value to them. Would that run parallel to a student going to med school to become eventually a lawyer? I suppose if his purpose is to be a medical malpractice lawyer he/she may not have wasted their time. There are easier ways to go about it.and less expensive too. One also needs to consider that at this time of adolescent experimentation, it is only experimentation and not full immersion? Sure, back in the day, that is 50 years ago, boys played with dolls. Adam West, Major Matt Mason and GI Joe. Surprisingly the first astronaut doll to hit the market was Barbie. That didn't make them homosexual. Some of the world's renown chefs are male as well. Not all tailors are homosexual. The list goes on and on with all kids of activities that show that single sex programs are beneficial to those who are more comfortable with their sexuality and are focusing in on that development, but those that are unsure are not getting the same benefit. They might do better in a program designed for mix sexed opportunities. It has harmed no male that the females have GS/USA, the same holds true for BSA. If one is considering equality, this choice in a young person's mind should also be an option. As mentioned before, programs like 4-H have been around for over 100 years and have produced a lot of great leaders in our country. They did it with a co-ed platform helping both males and females. Today their membership is almost 3 times that of the BSA and GS/USA. It's best to have both a single-sex program as well as co-educational for people to choose from.

After working for 45+ years with youth groups both co-ed and single sex groups, this appears to be a cobbled hybrid attempt to circumvent the BSA policy and program for young males. Way too many pitfalls and not enough safety net for me. I wouldn't want to be involved with it. Do your own thing for your boys, that's your only responsibility, have an occasional combined activity, maybe every 3 or 4 months, but leave the rest on the table and walk away.

YPT does not cover it when a girl from FG gets hurt on your "watch" and the Cub DL gets sued for negligence. Is BSA going to back the DL up? The Cub DL will need both a male and female for a co-ed activity just like Venturing. Yet the female would be there for YPT only and neither would be responsible for the FG members. As one who has primary responsibility for running a Cub activity, are all the girls "visitors"? Do they get equal attention from the two DL's or will the focus not be 100% on the boys? Will the boys get the full attention of the DL's or will they be seen as getting favoritism if they do. If a girl and boy get into a squabble do the parents deal with it or the registered leaders? If the finances are kept separate how are activity expenses calculated? What will the boys be doing when the FG's are working on advancement that aren't comparable to the Cub program? Are all the other dens in the Pack affected or just one den? Is the Cubmaster going to be handing out FG awards or will they have a separate time for that? Does FG have the same regulations, guidelines and policies that the BSA does? Does that boil down to the least common denominator, i.e. the FG gals are not allowed to do an activity allowed by BSA, so the boys won't be able to do that? or vice versa? I could go on for hours just asking questions, far too many to ask, far too many to get reliable answers for. For me, if there's going to be co-ed scouting, I'm gonna wait until all these issues are ironed out before jumping in the swamp with the alligators. And if BSA goes co-ed what happens to the FG girls? all join scouting and dump the FG program? I'm sure that's going to impress FG. Nope, still not interested in playing with a hornet's nest.

Hmmm, let me see. Friday night I had fish and I'm not Catholic Saturday I had an Asian salad and I'm not Oriental Sunday I had pizza and I'm not Italian Monday I had goulash and I'm not Hungarian Tuesday I had fajitas and I'm not Mexican Tonight I had shish kabobs and I'm not African/Asian I'm going to go to Hell in a basket. I just can't see me eating hotdogs and hamburgers for the rest of my life..... Oh, wait Hold the fries!

I would find it difficult to try and run two programs at the same time. An occasional shared activity now and then would be okay, like a family picnic, etc. but to run two programs at the same time? Not my thing especially if some parents from one organization took umbrage with something someone did they didn't like in the other program. Unless I am responsibility to a whole group, intermingling of two groups has potential ramifications I wouldn't want to deal with. I'm the den leader, and some little girl says I touched her inappropriately, is it a Frontier Girls issue or is it a BSA issue? If she gets hurt on my watch, does BSA cover my liability when I get sued? Way too many unknowns for me to find out at some inconvenient future date. Nope, not for me.

In a situation like this I always like to remind the leader that Bear is NOT a RANK, it is an earned AWARD, I would spend a bit of time explaining this to the parents so they don't freak out. He has missed the Tiger award, and the Wolf award, so be it. Now the boy and his parents have two choices, just enjoy the fun along with the others or work with his parents to bring him up to speed. It will be a good way for the parents to come online with the program without any pressure. He missed the fun of dong the activities with the other boys, but he can still earn the award working with his parents. No big deal He can start fresh with everyone when they start up in the fall with Webelos. There is no time requirements on the award, he can work on the awards for the rest of the school year and if the Pack doesn't meet during the summer he can continue on with the parents and pick up his award at the first Pack meeting in the fall. No need to panic, he's got time, he should enjoy it but focus on having fun with the boys already in the troop,

My guess would be SM/ASM for a Troop and CM/ACM for a Pack, with SM and CM as the unit leader

Naw, a lamooze class only encourages the boys to hold a hoof and tell her to breathe. This class has the boys reaching up inside up to their shoulder and pulling out the breech birth calf.....Big difference!

With all the Guides, rules, policies and regulations of BSA, I don't think this is going to happen very much any more. With the way things are going, it may get worse. Young boys are promised Adventure in Scouting, not many get it.

Can you see your boys birthing a calf? In North Dakota a 12 year old can get a farm driver's license and drive the 16' grain truck to the elevator in town. The former SM's wife of my second troop passed away recently. She was a really classy lady who owned her own insurance agency. I was looking over her history at the wake and noticed when she was 11 or 12 years old she had won a ribbon at the Oklahoma State Fair. Not bad for a gal that raises pigs. Some of these youth organizations are great and to think BSA is "the Best" just doesn't hold true. If nothing else, 4-H teaches a work ethic comparable to none.

Never work, the girls only want the Eagle and the prestige that goes with it.