Stosh

I'm all in favor of taking the WFA training if it only covers that which is beyond the basic FA classes. Even then the basic FA classes of the ARC don't teach much more than what the boys are picking up in S->FC and FA MB. So, I have 15 years experience in EMT-A (but no longer Nationally Certified), Certified CPR/AED/FA (but no longer AHA Instructor Certified), Emergency Rescue Technician (but no longer Certified), ARC Life Saving (but no longer Certified)...... I may have saved more lives than the BSA WFA instructors So I respectfully ask, what is WFA every 2 years going to help me with?

WFA is BSA taught in my area ARC dropped it. I am not, nor will I get WFA training and spend that kind of money every 2 years. I get CPR/AED/First Aid training for free every two years, so I'm good with that. Having talked with the WFA people I asked what the big deal with WFA was over regular First Aid. They do things a bit differently. For example they teach tourniquet because it is a last ditch effort to save a life after all else fails to control bleeding. The CPR is a waste of time, No one can do CPR long enough to do any good and by the time medical arrives for extrication, the survival time is pretty much all gone. I can assure you that the CPR being taught and the first aid taught is nothing like the level of CPR/First Aid given to entry level medical like First Responders from the fire department. When I took the CPR class a few weeks back, the instructor asked if I had had a CPR class before and I said it has been many years, but when I was I was American Heart Association CPR Instructor. She said, that makes sense, your technique is a bit different, than what American Red Cross teaches. I asked if it made a difference, she said for your level, it was over-kill, for the person taking the class it is no longer taught to the technique I am at. She wasn't all that impressed with WFA either. About all it teaches is to help the patient endure a longer wait period for medical help. Broken leg? No big deal, unless it is compound with massive bleeding, you'll survive. Treat for shock. and then wait. Heart attack? No AED? Do your best, but even then unless help arrives in the next 15 minutes, things go downhill fast after that. WFA is more of a legal CYA tool for the BSA. Out of the 27 CPR calls I was on, I was always expected to take the lead. I was AHA CPR Instructor after all. Even with all the O2, airways, and double person CPR, (no AED at that time) we had none survive the trip to the hospital 20 miles away. I have no current certifications other than CPR/AED/FA and just enough knowledge and experience to know what's going to work and what's not. We were not able to do a Tracheotomy, but if it was our kids, or our family, we knew what to do and how to do it. We were not trained, nor had the equipment to do a tourniquet, but we all knew what to do and how to do it. We couldn't give invasive medications, but we all new what an Epi-Pen was and how to "help" the unconscious person give himself a shot. Nope, I'm not all that inclined to do such things on someone else's kid, but if it were mine? ... in a heartbeat. WFA? If BSA is only covering their butts on this issue, then fine, they can pay and provide the training for free. Otherwise, the kids stay home and the Mrs. and I go and have a great time.

I bet there is the necessary expertise in every BSA Council across the country to tap into if one needs direction and instruction. Hey Mr. Stosh, our troop is looking to go to BWCA and would like some pointers on what we need to do to be ready. I already have an offer for next summer to take a expedition to Isle Royal for a different troop than mine. The Mrs. and I are always open to taking a group to BWCA. Nobody asks, so we just go anyway.

http://www.travelchannel.com/interests/outdoors-and-adventure/articles/florida-outdoors-adventures https://www.nps.gov/...it/backcamp.htm https://rootsrated.com/northwest-florida-fl http://kayakcentralflorida.com/ It just depends on the fence. Us folks up in Yakeeland only dream about what's in your backyard. We might have BWCA a day's drive away and Isle Royale nearby and the Ice Age Hiking Trail, Canoe/Kayak opportunities right outside the front door. But Colorado is a long ways away for hiking the mountains. Every place has it's own adventures, one can start the learning process by getting to those nearby and work your way up to the Yukon River in Alaska for your older boys. I for one would love to do the kayak back country camping in the Everglades! The Mrs. and I just might do it on our own anyway. I'm saving up the Misty Fjords of Alaska for a future date.

Our boys when they went to the BWCA had a Scouter come in and teach them how to plan a BWCA trip. He knew how to pack, what to pack, all the rules/regulations, and what to expect. He taught the boys ARC First Aid and CPR and reviewed canoeing techniques. His boys had never gone on any high adventure trip. So, we combined his skill and our experience with high adventures and took both troops up there. When all was said and done his boys now knew what high adventure was and could be and our boys knew the ins and outs of BWCA treks. Win for everyone. I found out that doing a 3 mile portage with a 85# canoe is not fun, but the boys on my crew found out that - yes the packs are a lot lighter, but together they were heavier. They chose to double portage it. My 85# canoe wasn't so bad as I thought it would be, but it still was a struggle.

9 years is a long time to wait for SeaBase. Webelos boys will not get a chance to go before they age out. Kinda sad to say the least. Older boys should be able to put together a 7-9 day trip at far less cost than SeaBase. We did it with BWCA. We went for 9 days at half the cost of what NT charges for 5.

Horse? What horse? He rode a high tech, all natural,organic, mobile, composting machine.

SeaBase for 9 years of trying? If one likes water here's where they want to be looking!!! http://upnorthadventures.com/yukon-summer-adventures/guided-river-trips/yukon-river-expedition/ http://livingadventure.com/ http://www.northernontario.travel/paddling/canoe-trip-on-the-big-moose-river https://www.nps.gov/ever/planyourvisit/backcamp.htm

I have no idea why one would put all their eggs in just one basket. Philmont or AT? Or Ice Age Trail vs. Continental Divide? Or SeaBase vs. Sea Kayaking the Apostles' Islands or a backpack/kayak trek/float to Isle Royale? Maybe do a NT vs. do it yourself of half the cost, or maybe if one wants to put in that kind of money, maybe the Moose River float or take on a stretch of the Yukon in Alaska. Seriously people ! The sign on the front door doesn't need a BSA emblem on it to make it high adventure! I'm kinda partial to the notion that the door without the emblem might be offering a higher level of adventure anyway.

@@blw2 Here's the rub, the CC and CM dump all over the DL's and then wonder why they don't participate in the pack planning and activities and stick to themselves in the den activities..... I don't. Over the years I have faced many situations like these mentioned on the forum. Some to the point where I just walk away and never look back. Did it to my first Boy Scout troop where my son was a scout, and when the politics took over my Venturing Crew I just walked away. The Venturing Crew collapsed within 2 years as the people aged out and no one wanted to get involved with the hassles going on. My first scout troop I walked away from is under new leadership and those who were causing the problems are now gone. They were able to survive, but it got really ugly before it got better. What people don't realize is the people in the trenches are all volunteers. They are not captive audiences for one's own aggrandizement, they aren't getting paid, they are plenty busy enough anyway, and most of those to rise to CC or CM/SM positions are 1) in over the heads or 2) have an ego to soothe that promotes an unhealthy climate for the program. Lemme see. I can stay and put up with political bickering, arguing and ego posturing or I can go do something else more productive. It's an easy choice for me. I never volunteered for any position higher than SM in the BSA. Too much "politickin'" going on up there. Yet in another organization I hold training on the "trenches" level as well as holding a lead position on the regional level. Some of my activities have been on the national level. I have training tomorrow because the regional people want me to take on a promotion to the supervisory level. The training is free and they told me to take the organization's vehicle to the training 2 hours away instead of my personal vehicle. Who out there gets that kind of treatment from the BSA?

The BSA was represented by Charles Evans Hughes, former Governor of New York and former U.S. Supreme Court Justice. Testimony included an affidavit from Robert Baden-Powell, founder of the international Scout Movement, on the origins of the Scout Movement.[20]:581 In 1919, the New York Supreme Court, a trial court, granted the BSA an injunction and the USBS was barred from using the terms "Boy Scout", "Scout", "Scouting", or any variation thereof.[21][22][23] Then of course the argument can be made that these "break away" organizations do not want to be associated with scouting and will make it clear that their program is an alternative it is not scouting. They take a more woodland/outdoors name rather than the militant Scouting. Navigators, Royal Rangers, Pioneers, Trail Life USA, Adventurers, Frontiersmen, Pathfinders, and Awana to mention just a few. Of course there's other youth organizations that are often associated with scouting identified as the FFA and 4-H. As I drive into town every day there's a full-sized bill board that catches all traffic coming in that says Boys & Gilrs Club a program for Character and Leadership Development. The Family "Y" is a biggie here too with huge signs all over it's massive new expansion. Boy's and Gilr's Club are just now landscaping around the huge addition they put on their building as well. And the BSA Council office? Hasn't changed for 40 years, but they did paint is just recently with some cheap gaudy green paint. When the BSA gave up it's foothold on Character and Leadership development, they passed the torch to a lot of other organizations out there that have done well in attracting the youth of the nation. BSA is in competition with all of these programs

BSA is and never will be able to be in a position to shut down a church's ministry to their youth without a flagrant abuse of it's own Law. Trail Life USA, Royal Rangers, Pioneers, etc. are not scout programs, they are church ministries. Good luck with shutting them down. BSA goes out of it's way to say it isn't a church program and thus one would have the BSA taking churches to court for breech of what? If one thinks BSA would lay awake nights worrying about the gender issue, try taking on the nightmare of the churches.

Just put the necker on your dog and let him loose. You'll have the flag in no time.

I wouldn't touch it.

Yep, that's what happens in my Pack.

And yet I have seen some spectacular 13 - 14 year old First Class Scouts that do a better of of reflecting the principles of Scouting than do those at the Eagle rank. I often wonder if it is really the rank that makes the Scout.

The nice thing I found out about the Cub program was the autonomy of the Den. One does not have to toe the line with the pack. It's not like the troop method of the Boy program. In my view Cubs are adult run, patrol/den method. If it weren't for the fact that the CM was my ADL, I wouldn't have any idea who was in the pack leadership. I didn't interact with the CC and committee, nor the other DL's. I just did my thing and showed up fir the pack events so the kids could get their awards. I ran that way for 2 years. Never had a problem. If the pack had a problem, I never knew about it.

My boys use a custom made necker. 36" square, blaze orange, boys wear a black surged satin stitched border, the next patrol can have another color, and the adults wear white border. No other markings on the neckers. They are visible from one end of the camp to the other. The boys use corresponding para-cord woggles.

"One of the problems is that BSA has to make rules that apply to EVERYONE" Does that mean they dumb it down to the lowest common denominator of not knowing anything about camping and set the bar there? By the time I was eligible for Boy Scouts, I could and had already camped for a good 5-7 years prior to that just about every weekend from early May to mid October. In the fall, the boys and I would head out camping for the weekend and take our .22's to hunt for squirrel and rabbits as well. We didn't shoot each other, but we weren't all that good yet at shooting fast moving rabbits either. We did get one, cleaned it, and had it for dinner. Best weekend as a kid I ever had with my buddies. It was a weekend the SM told us we weren't allowed to do that kind of activity, so we got parent's permission, dumped the uniforms, and went anyway.

105F. My daughter visited once (day camp) and forced me to drive her to Sonic 4 miles away. She's done P&Bs at Philmont but she won't do those johns at our local camp. My brother and I took our daughters to the BWCA and after a 10 mile drive out to the parking lot and a mile portage into the entry point, my darling daughter asked where the restroom was. I handed her a roll of TP and said, any pink tree will do. Never had to discuss it any further and she figured it out rather quickly. She was, after all, valedictorian of her graduating class of 400+. I'm thinking that once desperation sets in she'll realize there are a ton of pink trees if not privacy latrines within walking distance..

@@fred johnson, one has to remember that these youth programs have been around for ages. Most of them were around when I was a kid, there's nothing new here that hasn't been run up the flagpole and saluted in the past. What is different is the tides of time that come and go and for good or bad will eventually erode the shoreline in one place and deposit a sandbar somewhere else. The whole idea is not to intentionally become the eroding shoreline, but the receptive sandbar. Sure there are going to be storms that do a number on the shore, but all one has to do is see the rip-rap and sea walls that are in place to prevent it. The shore lines in the harbor are also really stable, too. Sometimes it's location, sometimes, it storms and weather, some times it's nothing more than Mother Nature and time. Change happens. Church "Scout" groups have been around since when I was a kid. Trail Life/USA is nothing more than an upstart that got a foothold and boost from the actions of the BSA. I didn't hear of any major upswing in the local Pioneer program or the Trail Life/USA that popped up and disappeared as quickly as it came. But we have 3-4 new "Y" facilities and an expansion on the original that has happened in the past year, Boy & Girls Clubs are just finishing up on a major expansion as well. And our local BSA Council has 3 Districts - 2 full-time DE's and 2 part-time DE's and the number of local scouts is dropping. I read in the local news-rag that more and more outdoor programs are being developed in the public schools. My wife and I were invited to start a Venturing Crew in a nearby town. I thought it was a go, but it never got beyond the exploratory level. But what I did find out was that the school did organize an Outdoor Club with advisor at a fraction of the cost of Venturing. The local outdoors clubs are now promoting youth opportunities as well. Canoe/Kayak Club had a major push this winter for this coming spring. My wife's kayak group has taken on some new younger gals as well. There's a KAMO group that has just started in our area as well, seems to be doing fairly well. (Kids And Mentors Outdoors) Seriously, people, it's not school sports, girls and cars that are the problem. It's that the BSA doesn't do it's homework! Even if it were to do some serious market research before making policy changes, it may stem the bleeding.

Too bad the adults had to get involved. Looked like the boys were doing just fine on their own. It's also too bad they didn't have oars... Oh, wait, canoes have oars they have paddles. Must have missed the memo on that one when they were at summer camp taking canoeing "MB". Glad Scooby is doing well. The boys did well as well. Well, just sayin'.

So after 8 pages we still haven't see much Thriving going on in the BSA. However, TrailLife/USA has moved most of their part-time people to full-time and are hiring new staff. Don't see that happening at my Council office, just more and more cutbacks. Maybe there are others out there that are going gung-ho and are taking up the slack...... maybe not.

Aha! the magic words at last.... if girls join and they have to change the name, there will never be a female that earns the BSA Eagle rank, and that's the real goal after all. It'll be kinda like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Good luck with that. And yes, this is why we keep coming back to it, Because to tell the first female who has gone through the program that she has jumped through all the hoops and the prize is right there only to realize all the dynamics to get there are different than they were for 100 years of scouting before her. All those were BSA Eagles, the eagle in hand is not.

If one watches closely, little girls react to the world differently than little boys. Much of this is observable and predictable. On the other hand a little girl who wants to be treated as a little boy is an anomaly. I really can't predict how they plan on reacting to any situation I am involved with. For my protection, I will avoid such issues until the laws catch up with what's going on. Right now on the news there's a white gal who posed as a black person to get into schools and be part of the black culture. Now she's unemployed, homeless and is considered a fraud. Why does this not work for the issues of race like it is being attempted in sexuality? If I can't predict the reliability of a child, I'm surely not going to try and figure out the reality of this whole mess. Nope, too many unpredictable variables for me to try and figure out. Gender is imaginary, sexuality is a biological, scientific reality.