Stosh

This is indicative of the posting I made. The SM feels that by actually doing the patrol method he's fragmenting up his troop. How can he be responsible for the troop when it is going in 3-4 different directions at the same time.

I looked at the website of the previous posting and the commands are far too many and mostly contrived. First of all if more than two flags in the ceremony the US flag preceeds the other line of flags. It doesn't have to cross over at any time and can merely go to where it needs to post, having come up the center of the aisle in front of the others. The only commands are "Please rise" and "Post the Color" (No, it is not plural, there is only one flag, that's why we don't have a colors-guard) The members of the audience come to attention as the flag comes within 10' of them as if it were any other parade. There is no command to "Salute". In the out of doors, the military uses the command "Present Arms". There is no "Two", it is "Order Arms". Traditionally, or for whatever reason the scouting organization has gone to great lengths to make up their own set of rules along the way. If they were to adopt the US Flag Code etiquette most people would no longer recognize the flag ceremony of the scouts. Actually, inside a building, the military does not salute the flag as it passes, they only come to attention. As far as I can tell, what is proper for Scouts is just about anything they can get away with and still be considered somewhat respectful. Oh and by the way, the color-guard does not salute. The color-guard does not retrieve the color, they retire them. There is no command for crossing over, etc. etc. etc. Remember the flag is not a civilian item, it is a military one. Up until the 1920's civilians could not fly them. The flag flew only over governmental and military installations. Only with a Congressional Code of Flag Etiquette was the public allowed to display the flag and then only according to the Code. For many years the Scouts supported that Code, but in recent years have pretty much abandoned it for their own set of protocols.

By the way, as far as my vote for a Dinner Flag Ceremony? Full uniform with belt pants, etc, cleaned wrinkle free. white gloves and all due respect and honor possible. Rehearsed if the flag is to be presented in any other way than on the staff already. Walk in step and basically make it look like you aren't doing this for the very first tme. If you do that much, you will do better than most flag presentations I have seen for a while.

If 2 flags are used before they get to the stands, both stop, the US flag goes forward and posts, then the other flag. So the US would pass in front of the other flag being obscured from the audience for a second. If 3+ flags are used, the US precedes the other 2+ and would always be "blocked" by the other row of flags once they reach the front of the audience anyway. The US would be posted and then the second row of flags would be posted accordingly.

How does one deal with the issue of adult leaders viewing the patrol method as fragmenting the troop? The greater the patrol autonomy the less troop autonomy is seen. This is being viewed as a threat to the troop as a whole.

Your privacy statement where you indicate that IP addresses, personal info, computer info are all collected on people using the site can be a little intimidating. I have a firewall that protects against such information going out on my machine so I'm not too worried. The page has not been updated for 2 weeks. Old news, or at least an indication of old news. (I'm sure stuff doesn't change that often, but last update info with a date a ways back indicates the page may not be attended to on a regular basis.) Too much info right off the bat. Need a splitter screen immediately, one sending to troop activity, the other to pack activity. Each unit needs its own site. Just a couple of things to think about. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/T21GatewayAreaBSA Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

If a scout program has gone so far down the toilet that the boys have to start a blog site to air their complaints, then there's probably no reason for that troop to continue on. If the adult leadership has become so disconnected from his boys that he/she doesn't know what's going on, he/she ought to be replaced. Any leadership that feels threatened by a boy's created blog site probably needs some serious training, soul searching, etc. to correct the serious problems facing that troop. I'm not afraid of what my boys would or would not say on the site because they have the opportunity to express their opinions any time any place to me directly. They do just that. I constantly ask them, I quiz them in BOR's. I get into discussions around campfires, and keep my ear to the ground constantly. I am involved in three entirely different youth groups and all are basically the same when it comes to this issue. If they don't like what they are experiencing, the vote with their feet. One has to stay ahead of the game or you'll lose them. Yet in the past year alone, I have helped 4 boys with their eagle project and have been harping on 3 more to get started. To more are under 15 and have been getting the "You'd better start thinking about your project" speech already. With 9 boys in line for Eagle and 5 more boys in their second year working on their life rank, they haven't much time to sit around and complain about things in the troop. I had one boy actually thank me for the constant push. He's in the USAF now and told me the night of his Eagle COH that except for his dad, I had spent more time with him growing up than any other man in his life. No teacher, no coach, no pastor, not even the scoutmaster. I had been his scouting leader from Webelos I through Eagle. Do the boys ever complain? Sure, all the time. That's how I learn. Stosh

Sorry I wasn't clear. Beavah has it correct. Prep: meaning the prepatory work necessary to have a quality program to accommodate the activity. The boys in my crew are 100% dedicated to the interest area and nothing else. They are not interested in being Eagles or Rangers. They just want an opportunity to do their "thing". I as an advisor I feel it is important that I make every effort to insure each registered scout work on his Eagle. I don't want them to give up that responsibility simply to join my crew were an emphasis on Eagling is not present. I do not have the boys to support that activity in the crew and the sole responsibilty of that task would fall exclusively on me. For that reason I insist they remain active in their troops to insure that which I can't do for them in the crew. I don't have the time to "prep" my boys in my troop AND take the secondary time to "prep" every boy from each different troop to Eagle as well. Scout troops have the connections, the resources, the contacts, etc. to make it happen. Venturing crews do not. Personally I believe it would be a grave disservice to the boy to have him join my crew and abandon his trail to Eagle. At least he makes a commitment to pursue both at the same time with the help of both his troop and myself. Stosh

Boy Scout troops specialize in producing Eagles Venturing crews specialize in producing Rangers What one does best should run the program. While it might be technically possible to Eagle from a crew, why does the crew have to redesign it's program to accomdate a few of the members of the group. That means a crew must do Eagle prep, Ranger prep and special interest prep. No thanks. We tell the boys up front if they want Eagle stay in the troop, if you want ranger pick another crew, we do special interest only. Then the boy can decide what he wishes to do. Stosh

Discussions such as these always intrigue me. When all the fuss and feathers have settled down, all the theorizing and speculation run it's course, it leaves me with only one question in my mind to "solve" such sticky wickets. What is more important: the rules or the boy? Then I make my decision. Stosh

The boys are more than welcome to start a yahoo group of their own. Not a problem, easy to do and any boy in the troop wishing to do that is okay with all the leadership of the troop. However, the Yahoo group we use is not just for the kids. It's for the parents and anyone else connected with the council/troop/feeder packs that wish information regarding our troop. It is not designed nor ever intended for a chat/blog/forum. The boys want to know where they are with advancement? We have the info. If his parents want to know what's on the calendar? They can go look. One must decide before they put it on the web the intent, scope, goal, they intend to fulfil with their web communications. We have chosen to provide information to the troop members and their families.

While technically you are correct on the enforcement of Rule #1. However, before we take on any crew members from other troops they make the choice to follow that rule. It is enforced by the boy himself.

Hmmm, we don't allow the boys to post to the Yahoo Group site. Only the leaders (moderators). We prefer the face-to-face situations for sounding off as this young man did, so that it can be dealt with at that time and in that place.

As a ASM and VA both, I'll give you the answer from both sides. First of all, the issue is not either/or. It is both/and. One can be a Boy Scout and a Venturer at the same time. It'll cost you $1 for a second membership. With my Ventur(ing) Crew, we are very specialized in our interest area (American History: Reenacting). When we first started our group 8 years ago the Council was nervous about us "stealing" older boys away from Scout troops. We simply solved the problem with our first rule. If you are a registered scout when you want to join, you are required to stay with your troop and Eagle out. If you are not a registered scout and never were, you can ignore rule #1. There have been 4 boys who Eagled out while registered with our Crew. Only one boy (under rule #1) did not and he dropped out of both units. Again, do not look at this as an either/or situation. I'm sure both the CA and SM will agree with this approach.

FYI http://www.flagkeepers.org/ProperDisposalCeremony.asp

Scoutmaster backed by the adult committee. When that is not feasible, i.e. issues of safety, 2 deep leadership, welfare of the scouts, then it's the sole responsibility of the SM.

Patrol Advisor is one of the leadership positions offered by ScoutMaster 2005 Software. It is not a user-defined field. And no, not every patrol needs one, but if they ask for someone to work with them on a regular basis, it's a position possibility. Our troop took in 15 new boys last year. That meant either 2 assistant scoutmasters were assigned to keep an eye on them or they stood in line waiting for "someone" to help through their growing pains. Two Guides, two instructors, two PL, (new boys) and 2 APL (new boys). Ok, 15 new boys and no adult supervision over the lot. 2 advisors (and I mean advisors) would be nice to turn to if needed. 15 scouts, 2 youth leaders and 2 patrols with no assigned adult leadership. Kinda makes one wonder if anything will get done.

LOL! I've been in scouting as a ASM, Crew Advisor, Council Webelos outdoor trainer, Fundamentals Scoutmaster, Woodbadge recipient, Cub Advancement Chairman, Outstanding Venturing Leader, Webelos Leader, etc. etc. and I have been told that I don't promote myself and for that reason, I'll never get the District Award of Merit or Silver Beaver. 23 years of scouting! Sorry, Folks! I have more important things to do than run for political accolades from my voting peers. I have more fun with my boys and would prefer being in the trenches with my boys. The really sad part of the whole process is that people I trained have advanced politically in scouts further than I have. So what. I have helped 12 boys Eagle, and I have 4 more finishing projects or wrapping up their requirements. I received my Wood Badge beads at a Troop COH. I don't remember much of the event. Working my ticket was the best time I ever had in scouting. I liked it so much I continued on with it for 2 years after completing the ticket. I know what I've accomplished, and so do my boys. 'Nuff said.

tradition noun 1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, esp. by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition. 2. something that is handed down 3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition. 4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices. 5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition. Yes, the scout Law is a tradition. If one means tradition is all the superficial la-de-da added onto a basic core belief, then that's fine, but if that core belief is passed down from one generation to the next, then it, too, is tradition. By the way Old Glory is not a tradition, the tradition is that the flag changes every time a state is added. The flag we have today is not traditionally the flag we have had as a country. We have had several different flags. I guess your definition of tradition is far different than mine.

This is an interesting spin off. I'm the one with the traditional uniform issue that started the thread. Your agenda, however, is quite misleading. Troop Traditions vs. Boy-led. This would seem to imply that boy led units have no traditions. What happens if it's the boys who pomote the tradition? Your subject heading seems to imply this is not possible. I'm all for boy led units, but one must remember this isn't a free-for-all organization. Certain scouting traditions are not optional. The Scout Law is in the 1911 handbook and has been a tradition ever since. Sometimes a little regimentation gives the sense of discipline and regimentation that the boys seem to like and promote. As a matter of face, a little self-discipline isn't going to hurt anyone. A scout uniform used to mean something. The question arises in today's world, does it anymore? Maybe we ought to just dump the whole thing and not worry about the added expense of purchasing any kind of uniform or t-shirt or anything that seems to smack of scout pride. The "Grandma went to Vegas and all I got was this lousy T-shirt" shirt should be sufficient for any OA ordeal. Tradition is the life-blood of the Scouting Movement. It is what makes it what it is and why it stands apart from all other youth programs in the US. When you have one's honor patrol setting the example of a full uniform with neckerchief and hat as the standard and all the other patrols clammoring about getting their own, "Boy Led" and "Tradition" stand in the same place.

This has been the tradition of the troop for over 15 years. I really don't know who initiated the process, but it's never been questioned. I've been with the troop that long and it was a tradition at that time. It was a "suggestion" on my part to initiate a second neckerchief for each patrol and the boys promptly jumped on it and began designing it. I also said I could do iron-on transfers of their patrol emblem onto t-shirts and now they all want patrol t-shirts too. When I suggested expedition hats with cords, brass and emblems all over it including letting them know the $50 price tag, they all wanted one and had the money the next week even before I could measure up their heads and order the hats. Esprit-de-corps and motivation... If one does not expect the best, they never get it. Just to give this a little perspective, the honor patrol at the present time has 3 boys. 14, 13, and 12. All Star scouts with one or two more MB's for Life. One is SPL and the other two are den chiefs for two different packs in the area. They haven't decided who to invite yet from the troop to fill out their 8 member patrol.

Some of our boys wear up to 3 different neckerchiefs, depending on their responsibilities at the time. They have a troop, patrol, and fun neckerchief. 3 of the scout leaders have 2 different neckerchiefs, troop and Wood Badge, the rest wear the troop neckerchiefs. The neckerchief is not required unless the scout wishes to get attendance for attending a meeting, participating in a BOR, COH, flag ceremony, meals, or vehicle ride to any activity. So far the boys have been really into wearing the neckerchief.

Dang, we must be really behind the times! We have no troop "Class B" uniform. As a matter of fact we have no "troop" uniform either. The boys have a formal uniform (I suppose is what everyone is calling a Class A) that has a troop neckerchief. This uniform is worn anytime there's a meeting, BOR, Court of Honor, traveling to activities and at ALL meals. If someone shows up at a meeting without uniform they don't get credit for attendance. They don't do BOR or participate in Court of Honor without a uniform. They can't participate in flag ceremony without uniform and they don't get into any vehicle to travel to an activity without a uniform. With meals, if they opt out of uniform, we feel they won't starve to death before the next meal. So far no boy has really objected to the policy. By uniform we mean with neckerchief. EXCEPT.... ! When they function as a patrol, they wear their patrol neckerchief/hat/staff and/or whatever other symbol of their patrol they happen to decide upon. If they are working an Eagle project or doing activities at camp they have a scout t-shirt to wear. It must say BSA and have the fleur-de-lis on it to qualify. They only time a boy can be out of some sort of scout identification clothing is swimming or in the shower. Our honor patrol has 3 neckerchiefs they wear and carry with them at all time as the situation around them changes. They arrive at the troop meeting in their troop neckerchief. When they are responsible for the meeting program as a patrol, they change over to that neckerchief. They have a "fun" neckerchief that they have recently adopted that is the wig-wag flag. They like it because no one else has such a neckerchief. They also recently opted for the expedition felt hat with the large 1st Class medallion, brass numerals for the troop number and tan/green hat cords. They also carry a 6' staff. They all carry positions of responsibility and with such uniformity, any scout leader can quickly find anyone of that patrol regardless of how large the crowd may be. With enough esprit-de-corps, the boys have no problem wearing their uniforms.

My SPL is 14. He runs the troop and is PL of the honor's patrol. All members of the honor's patrol hold Pos of Resp including instructor and guide. The older boys are all working on their Eagle projects and advising the 14-16 year olds. If your oldest boys don't know their stuff, Star ranked 14 year olds who do know their stuff, take over in the leadership positions. Boys are in those positions because they can or are willing to do them, not because they are older than the next guy. Age is not relevant in our Troop. I have a Tenderfoot Patrol Leader with Star/Life ranked boys in his patrol.

A boy that can't do a pull-up? I have a boy that fit that same problem. He could not pull himself up at all. After 30 days, he could pull himself up about 1/3 the way to the bar. That was improvement. Now this life scout is 6' 6" tall, weighs over 250# and is an all-star football player on the high school team, is working on his Eagle project and is one of the nicest kids I've ever met. I'm proud of the fact I have had him in the troop for these past few years. And by the way. He still can't do a pull-up.....