Stosh

This has become an interesting thread. Yet when it all boils down to the basic core of the discussion as to whether or not a sheath knife is too big, if a locking buck is too small, whether the axe should be worn on the belt, etc. etc. it is all irrelevant. If a boy is taught to respect a big/small/light/heavy knife and to use it correctly, what's the problem? If a boy is taught to respect a hand/three quarter/full axe and to use it correctly, what's the problem? What the tool is is a mere extension of what works for the person. How they use it determines it's importance. If I wish to carry a sheath knife with belt axe, I have to worry about the weight, not someone else. If I carry a small jackknife as well, then so be it. If I use any of them incorrectly I am a bad example to the boys and need to try a different avocation. On the other hand, does it make any difference what tool I use to teach responsibility and maturity when using sharp bladed tools of any sort? Stosh

On occasion I have been "chastised" for wearing a sheath knife and a belt axe, both of which are quite useful for fire-building, emergencies where a small knife won't do, and camp cooking. I can amass kindling about 3-5 times faster than anyone with a jackknife and using a folding knife for food prep only encourages bacterial transfer. With that being said, the discussion is usually over in a matter of seconds once people realize that both the sheath knife and belt axe are BSA issued/stamped/approved. It's not the knife/axe that is the problem, it's the person using them. Are they trained? Are they responsible? Are they mature? If one fails any of the above tests, then even a folding knife in the hands of that person is a mistake. Stosh

Whatever it takes to keep interest I use. Signalling? At our last campout we had boys fighting over the telegraph keys, whining about their flashlights not having the signal button on them, and trying to jerry-rig their triangular neckerchiefs on a stick to work something out. I killed off a whole afternoon of no-snow winter camping with that ad hoc idea. And by the way, the boys can signal from one side of study hall to the other without having to leave the evidence of a passed note. American Sign Language is actually something they can use when they wish to discuss something while a meeting is in progress. I can communicate with my SPL as he leads the meeting. The next lesson is fire-starting without matches..... The magnesium was just a "flash-in-the-pan" no-brainer. The boys are now in the process of making char-cloth for flint and steel and whittling out their drills. Stosh

Without equipment and training, winter camping really sucks. However, there are nice BS Camps out there that have a winter survival program that our boys have attended for the past 15 years. They have the equipment and expertise to make the outing very challenging and exciting for the boys. One year the temperature went down to 43 degrees below zero (not counting the wind-chill) and staff went out to help the boys if they wished to return to the main lodge. ALL TROOPS declined the suggestion saying they were warm and snug for the night and didn't want to get up and run around in the cold. I have done a lot of winter camping and if done right, with the proper education and equipment is an excellent program. For those in the upper midwest check out Spearhead at Tomahawk Boy Scout Reserve. It is an EXCELLENT program and have had boys from all over the upper midwest come and learn how to winter camp correctly. Stosh

A driver's license number is not an issue of identity theft. The DL # is a public identification number that is maintained by the individual state along with, but not exclusively with one's permission to drive. An identification card/DL proves with a picture who you are. All states which used to use SS# have switched over to a different number for identity theft reasons. Anyone who refuses to give a DL number should not be allowed to drive anyone other than their own child to a scout event and thus do not need to be included in the Tour Permit application. If a "Dad" refuses to give you the number, find a different driver. If he can't prove who he is, that he has state permission to drive, and who may not have proper liability insurance to cover the other scouts, then it's time to find a different driver. As humorous as the comments were, one DWI will pull a DL and unless that Dad can produce one as evidence, I would seriously doubt whether he should be for the troop. Stosh

Our honor patrol has adopted the Myer's signal flag as their neckerchief. It is white background with red square in the middle. The signal flag was supposed to be 24" square and as you said the regular neckerchief was supposed to be 32" square. I compromised at 29". It gives a full, nice looking neckerchief, but will not take the traditional sized woggle. We do not roll the neckerchief, it is gathered instead. It lays in folds rather than a neat roll. Look at the pictures of neckerchiefs painted by Rockwell. You will notice most are gathered, not rolled and are of the larger/fuller sizes. Because of their size, they will not go under the collar and instead are always over the collar. Our boys have also chosen to go with the hand tied turk's head knot and adjust it so it fits nicely over the gathered tails. They also adopted the BP example of putting the woggle on vertically rather than horizontally and tying a square in the tails. It is thus impossible to lose the woggle. It is very noticable with the size and color these boys have a real neckerchief. The signal flag is handy, the larger size makes a better medical sling/bandage and the woggle offers a way of tying the flag to their staff or signaling. It's practical and looks nice.

We have a venture patrol. It is not, nor ever will be anything like a venturing crew. It is not a separate entity. It is also referred to as the Honors Patrol. Their official name is the Raven Patrol named after Pee Wee Harris' patrol. The patrol is by invite only. Minimum requirements - Star Rank, noticable dedication to scouting. On-going requirements - Hold a perpetual POR. And continue on the Trail to Eagle. It is the goal of this patrol to eventually have 8 eagles as its membership at the same time. There are only 8 openings. If you are asked to leave the patrol or leave on your own, you will never again be reinvited. Age is not a factor. The patrol leader of the venture patrol is the SPL, and the assistant patrol leader is the ASPL. Each member of the patrol is a youth advisor for another patrol in the unit, besides holding the POR rank. If there is not enough patrols to advise, they have to be a den chief in the feeder pack. The venture patrol is very elitist. It has it's own hat, neckerchief, t-shirt, compass, whistle and 6' staff they carry to stand out as that patrol member. They are the leaders of the leaders and know it. They camp, cook, and function as a separate patrol at all outings. There is no such thing as a "class B" uniform for these boys. They do have a patrol t-shirt they wear under their uniform in case they wish to take the uniform off to keep clean during a work session, swimming, etc. Otherwise, they are back in full uniform with neckerchief. They are constantly training with knots, lashing, first aid, etc. to be able to best anyone at a camporee competition. They are also being trained in Morse Code and American Sign Language. We are presently looking into the American Red Crosse First Aid/CPR training for the patrol. If a regular troop patrol will not, cannot, or is not prepared to lead a troop meeting, this patrol will step in assist that patrol responsible to carry out their program. Does this elitism create friction amonst the boys? Yep, that's why two of the three other patrols are planning out their neckerchiefs, and what they want for a patrol t-shirt as well. Having an elite group of scouts is nothing more than the same principle of morale building we stress every camporee when the patrols compete against each other in scoutcraft skills anyway. Does this cause friction amontst the troops? Yep. So what. Does that competition promote a challenge to the others. Yep. What would your troop be like if there were TWO honors patrols competing tooth and nail for the top spot? The other patrol is the older boys who are basically slugs and have no interest other than garnering support to help the troop with their eagle project so they can get that rank and quit. Any individual that has approached the Raven patrol to inquire into membership are instructed to go back to their own patrols and prove their worth there. Are there any hard feelings? Nope, the other patrol officers are very pleased to be incorporated into the patrol's responsibilities and enjoy the attention/help they get from the honor's patrol. And by the way.... at the present time the youngest Raven is 12 years old and the oldest is 14 years old. We have Star ranked boys that compete is scoutcraft with boys 4-5 years their elder and do not qualify for Philmont or other high adventure programs of the BSA. How do they work out in the long run.....? At the winter (cabin) campout this past month, one of the boys was admiring one of the Raven's turk's head knot woggle for his neckerchief. The Raven sat down and spent at least an hour teaching that boy how to tie it while the other boys were off doing what they wanted to do. Afterwards the Raven told his patrol members of this boys interest in the knot and to keep an eye on him as a potential member of the patrol once he reaches rank. As a ASM and a Venturing Crew Advisor, I can assure you that splitting the boys up with a Troop and Crew association is not a good idea. The venture patrol is the boy's version of lead by example. If all you are doing is training the boys up to go off to a different organization (Venturing Crew) you will constantly bleed off your greatest talent in the troop.

Tom Slade: AT TEMPLE CAMP, by Percy Reese Fitzhugh, explicitly states that that early camp had a mess hall where the food was prepared, but the boys ate at patrols around the area. For those of you who have not read the book, some of the people involved in the book were characters like Tom Slade, Roy Blakeley, Westy Martin, and PeeWee Harris. This early literature was intended to promote the scout program in the early years of scouting in America. If the patrol method was adhered to it wasn't all that strict when it came to the mess hall.

What's the point in giving the boy the certificate if he can't wear the patch. I say reverse it. If he's earned the rank, give him the patch and present him with recognition (certificate) at the COH. Technically, the boy has earned the rank when he is done with his BOR and the signatures are finalized. At that point a patch could be presented for the rank he has earned. Everything beyond that is fluff. If that doesn't fly because you haven't gone through council as of yet, then there should be any recognition until the council says it's ok. (Which by the way I find nowhere in any scout literature/rules, etc.)

Obviously the wording of the Webelos book has changed since I did my WB ticket. The only thing that holds true now is whether or not he has AOL. If he does he does not need to be 10 years old nor need to complete the 5th grade. If the boy receives is AOL at a Jan/Feb Blue Gold Banquet, he does not need to wait until June to join a troop. The discressionary option for SM to forego Scout and Tfoot ranks is no longer worded in the book as it had been in the past. With the exception of waiting for a month to practice the physical fitness test, an AOL scout could knock out all those requirements in an evening anyway, having done the requirements once or twice before.

One must also temper the excitement of troop run summer camps with the fact that there are troops out there who do not have the expertise to pull it off. I know of one troop that tried and everyone began packing up by Wednesday and the remaining survivors abandoned the camp on Thursday. That was a whole years worth of planning/programming down the drain. Our adult leaders picked the BSA camp this year and the attendance at camp has gone up over last year when the kids picked. Sometimes an adult's suggestion can carry new opportunities for those scouts who don't know the questions, let alone the answers.

Hmm, it sounds as if factory scouting is a negative thing. Isn't the end product of valid citizen leaders the whole purpose of scouting? I have worked in manufacturing/factory over the years and if one wishes to produce a consistant program there must be a consistent process. To open it up for major variations will produce major variations in the quality of the end product. I think merit badge factory summer camps, supplemented with a valid troop experience for the week produces the best program. A troop can't do it all, nor can a summer camp be expected to provide everything for the whole week. The focus on the advancement of the individual is only a part of the scouting program. If one thinks a scout deserves Eagle when he has done nothing to support the program of patrol method and communal success, then they don't deserve the rank. Individuals are not leaders. To provide the scout with leadership abilities is supplemented by the scouting program, and that guidance, opportunities, and experience beyond the program make up real meat and potatoes of the situation. If I need to get from point A to point B, it really doesn't make any difference if I walk, run, or drive a BMW. The means (factory) is not as important as the Eagle (product).

I guess it all just boils down to personal opinion and how it relates to the directives of the program. However, I may feel about whether or not a scout is rushed through his requirements or not, the policy of the BSA organization should still be the standard by which opinions are tempered. If a SM doesn't want the boy to be Tfoot after crossing over, fine. The policy allows for that. If a SM does want the boy to be Tfoot after crossing over, fine. The policy allows for that as well. However you wish to view the situation, be sure to inform the listener/inquirerer whether it's your personal opinion or national scout policy.

I also forgot to add. A print program, iron on transfer paper and a color printer will do a major job of reducing the cost of silk screening. For a couple of dollars each, neckerchiefs can be quickly made for all occasions.

One has to remember that a traditional neckerchief is just that traditional. We have a traditional troop neckerchief AND the boys have also opted for patrol neckerchiefs (partly in protest of the tradition). They opted for a larger neckerchief, square and useful. It is a Myer's flag square, red on white, very useful for signalling and for first aid, and with handmade woggles sets them apart. Any seamstress/tailor can make them, and if anyone can work a sewing machine and do a rolled edge, it's a piece of cake. I'm not a tailor, but I can run a straight-stitch hem with no problem. Check your yellow pages and you'll do just fine. It also makes sense to have a larger neckerchief for the larger boys. With some of the football players we have in our troop, some of them look rather dumb with only a couple of inches sticking out below the slide.

I did my woodbadge ticket on this transition. In 1993 the policy was that at the SM discretion, if the AOL requirements were sincerely done right, then they could be accepted as advancement for Tenderfoot. I carried two Webelos groups through the transition and both groups were under age 11, just finishing up 8th grade in Feb. (AOL at Blue/Gold Banquet in the middle of 2nd year Webelos). Crossed over into Scouts with basis in AOL fulfillment AND were received into the Troop as Tenderfoot. It was all legitimate with the scouting policy at that time, allowed for cooperation with SM, and 3 boys from those two classes went on to Eagle. The Webelos boys went through their requirements for Webelos twice and I also used the Tfoot requirements to supplement it just to be sure. To have the SM insist on Tfoot requirements on top of that would have the boys fulfilling the requirement 3 times. The boys were warned that they may have to do just that, but were very excited about coming into the Troop as Tfoot when the SM waved it. Set those boys and the SM on an excellent footing right from the start. 1/3 of the boys (those three mentioned earlier) were Eagles.

As far as age is concerned, the only time we have run into problem with age and high adventure is when we use scout supported activities such as Sea Base, Northern Tier and Philmont and other smaller activities that have a minimum age requirement. This is yet another reason why we develop, plan and execute our own programs of high adventure. We can set the standards. For example, if one does not have first aid, swimming, canoeing, and a partial on camping they are not qualified for BWCA, regardless of age or rank. Canoeing merit badge is worked on while we are on a whitewater canoe outing we take every spring coupled with a couple of weekends of wilderness camping experiences on a lake. Those camps are primitive and canoe accessable only, where no-trace lessons are taught along with canoeing. The boys know that every activity we do regularly during the year is preparing them for the bigger events that are yet to come. Without high adventure, it would be like reading all kinds of library books except for the last chapter.

One of the things about high adventure is not the actual trip but the energy expended getting there. If one is going to go to BWCA and have someone else do the planning, organizing, and such and that all the scouts do is show up and have fun, you have defeated 95% of what a trip like that can provide programatically for the boys. Planning out 9 days of meals for X amount of people, shopping it, and packaging it down to portagable proportions/weight takes planning. Organizing camp equipment down to functionable amounts with weight in mind takes planning. Preplanning the permit/entry coordination and then planning out a reasonable trek, purchasing maps, etc. takes planning. Needless to say there's a years worth of prep time to cut the costs down to less than summer camp costs but it can happen. If all you're going to do is show up at the door at Northern Tier and pay for their expertise, not only is it going to be expensive, but totally useless for educational/programatic benefits of doing it on your own. That's not high adventure, any tenderfoot can go with someone else doing all the work. And while we may be within 600 miles of BWCA, we summer camp 1000 miles away in Utah this year. We figure the cost of gas along with the $210 cost of camp. Because someone else does all the work for Summer Camp, it's not really high adventure, but it sure get's a ton of boys wanting to go when it's going to be right next door to Yellowstone. How much prep work is done for summer camp? two days of driving, with camping, meals, etc. Sightseeing with more meals and camping while out there and then the trip back. Is there an opportunity for the younger boys to learn how to menu/plan/route out the trip? Yep. Again 95% of the benefit of high adventure is not in the trip, it's in the planning. Our program for the troop is designed around such planning. By the way, we have scouts who have reached the rank of Star who cannot go on some of our high adventure trips because they are not old enough. Are they involved in the planning? You bet, they know their turn will come quick enough.

I would tend to agree with Eagle. High Adventure is the key to older boy retention and success. If you only offer the same summer camp for the fifth year in a row for a boy, I would not blame him if he would take a pass and try something else. Summer Camp in Utah is the same cost as summer camp in Virginia. The only variable is the gas money and in the scope of the whole project, relatively quite low. The variety and novelty is definitely worth the cost. BWCA for 9 days cost us less than 5 days in summer camp. One doesn't have to break the bank to get to high adventure. Units that are active seem to find new and different ways to excite the boys year after year. If it were the same old thing every year, I as a leader would have left a long time ago. As far as expensive. All the boys are given ample opportunity to raise money through the troop to pay for any and all of these activities. Bake sales, popcorn, wreaths, chili suppers, etc. all contribute to the boys' expenses. As far as the cost is concern, so far, I haven't heard any negative comments from the boys. If the parent's complain about the cost, we get on the boy's case about the fund raising they are doing and that usually clears up the problem. Anyone who restricts high adventure programming, will see a relative correlation to the retention of the older scouts.

GWD! Are you nuts? You haven't figured out you've got the best situation in the world? For many years we were "one" patrol being a very small troop. Ok, we also had 3 wood-badge trained leaders. We decided on going right to the top! Summer camp every year, and 2-3 other high-adventure. Philmont every other year and Sea Base on the other years. When we couldn't get in, Boundary-Waters or a self-created trip of some sort. Winter survival every year, and a summer camp in a different state every summer. You can only take a small group to BWCA or Philmont anyway, why lament not having numbers? Well, word got around that we were THE troop to join. Now our membership in the past 2 years has quadrupled and we have 4 full/active patrols and are overwhelmed with trying to maintain the high level of program we have enjoyed for so long with our "little" troop. We had to send two crews to Philmont last summer and that meant it separated out the boys for the whole activity. Oh, for the days of the small troop. Enjoy what you have, you may regret your wish. So often we wish for something else, while ignoring what we have.

1) As ASPL or even SPL, you are not responsible for running the troop. SPL and ASPL run the leadership corps of POR people. If you do not train them to lead, your mass gatherings will be chaos, which is what you are now finding out. 2) Train your PL and APL to lead their patrols. Make them responsible for programing for their patrols. If they are POR Instructor or Troop Guide, they step out of their patrol and work with the new boy patrol who is under the guidance of their own PL and APL. 3) If there are patrols who lack leadership and wish to disrupt the other patrols, find them a space in the hallway where they can accomplish their disruption away from those who are wanting to learn. 4) Discuss with your SM his responsibility of approving Scout Spirit for those who only want an eagle rank and do not wish to show Scout Spirit. That's the SM job, after talking to him, let him do it. 5) You are not responsible for discipline or maintenance of order, you are responsible for training other scout leaders. Once that has been accomplished, much of what you are experiencing will go away. 6) Ownership of this problem is not your, it is the whole troops. If people are disruptive, invite them to leave and to come back when they wish to participate. If you do not get the backing of the adult leadership on this, then you will know what the #1 problem in the troop really is.

It was cabin camping.... They wore their sweatshirts under their uniforms and when they went outside for outside activities they put a coat on. With boys this age, however, it would seem that mittens and caps were optional. It was in the 30's and the boys didn't seem to have issues with being cold which we as leaders watch for on activities such as these. The point being, the uniforms were not immediately stripped off after eating and thrown under their bunks so they could put their class B's on as quick as they possibly can.

While at our winter campout we retired a flag. A grandfather of one of the boys had given us the flag to "dispose of properly". We were in a cabin that had a fireplace and the fire was buring. Everything was cleared from the center of the cabin to allow for two ranks of facing scouts. The SPL mounted the flag on his 6' walking staff and stood on the end of the line until the SM said "For it's last time, present the colors." The SPL came forward to the fireplace, and called out three names and those scouts came forward, removed the flag, folded it properly and handed it to the SPL. They then returned to rank. The SPL carefully placed the flag in the flames, stepped back and said "Scouts, salute." The salute was held until the flag was no longer recognizable. The boys then stood for another length of time until the triangle of the flag was no longer recognizable and the SPL quietly said, "Dismissed". It was apparent afterwards that a couple of the scouts had been moved to tears but no one said anything. It was by far the most impressive ceremony I had ever seen. The rather surprising thing about the ceremony was that it was not planned out at all. I had earlier handed the flag to the SPL and said we need to retire this flag appropriately by burning it. The rest was done by the boys. I suggested that the grommets be found and returned to the owner, which the boys did the next morning when cleaning up the fireplace at the end of the activity. I think the most impressive part of the whole ceremony was the silence and the time I had with my feelings and thoughts not being interrupted by anything other than what I was experiencing.

Excellent post for a first one. But I'd like to also add.... We do everything "wrong" and are successful. As a general outdoor post, the prescribed format you have suggested from BSA is excellent and would recommend it for anyone wanting to start a crew. However, one must also realize that in order to be successful in certain other situations, one must toss out some or all of the rules. As a US history crew with current emphasis on Civil War reenacting, everyone's a private except for the advisor and one of the assistant advisors. They happen to be a Lt. Col. and Capt. by earned rank in the hobby of CW reenacting. This means all the crew members and all other assistant advisors are privates. If the event does not require the leadership of the Lt. Col. or Capt. they too fall in as privates. We run our crew as if it was 1860 and the kids love it. Our charter members are aging out and are coming back and signing on as assistant advisors. We have no president, no vice-president, treasurer or secretary. We have adults in charge of everything. Obviously one does not want a 15 year old quartermaster in charge of 10# of black powder rolled up in paper. Obviously with 7 years of success and more kids coming into the program, we must be doing something right. The By-laws of the group is the closest we get to having any programatic directive from the BSA. As captain of the chartering organization, I would assume that for the most part, I'm as close to the equivelent of the Scoutmaster from Hell type situation as anyone can get. So far I haven't had any complaints. I must also add that as an ASM for the past 15 years, the youth have ownership in the program as a whole. After every event we all sit down and evaluate, suggest improvements, discuss safety, etc. to make sure the event was worthwhile. There are no officers at this point, everyone from the advisor to the newest member are all equals. Everyone's comments carry the same weight. Stosh

I have just returned from a winter camp outing. I am ASM and advisor of the honor patrol I wear a class A uniform all the time at all activities. It is permissible to wear a "class B" when not traveling or eating in our troop. On Friday night my patrol all showed up in full uniform and one of the boys took his neckerchief off to put on his class B's for the evening's activities and his patrol leader walked by and quietly reminded him that we lead by example. He put his neckerchief back on and that patrol stayed in class A's all weekend long. By Saturday noon, there were a few others from other patrols who didn't take off their class A's after the noon meal and kept them on for the rest of the day. The only time the neckerchiefs came off is when we had a first aid training session and the SPL asked for everyone's neckerchiefs so he could put a splint on a "broken ankle". The first three neckerchiefs were from the members of his patrol. Gloves, sticks and more neckerchiefs were quickly piled up for this use in the "emergency". It was also kind of surprising to see that patrol with their 6' walking staves all have their personal first aid kits hanging on them. No one reminded or suggested they do so. Two of these staves were commandeered into service as litter poles for the boy with a "broken ankle". Sometimes if you expect miracles, you actually get them. Are uniforms and neckerchiefs important? Seems to be for this patrol.