Stosh

If one were to do a little research on the topic, I do believe historically under the "A Scout is Thrifty" it explicitly states the boy is to earn his own way, especially in scouting. If the boy cannot get his spud-butt off the couch long enough to earn a little leaf-raking, snow-shoveling money, he isn't showing sufficient Scout Spirit in his everyday life. My NBP is seriously considering the full uniform to set themselves apart from the rest of the troop. I said it was ok, but only if they earned the money themselves and they ALL did it. I also said that they could do private fund raisers as a patrol to make sure those who couldn't find opportunities on their own to raise money could do it with the teamwork assistance of the rest of the patrol. These "historical" values once taught by the BSA need to be brought out of the closet, dusted off and put back into practice. As far as thrifty goes, the troop leader with the pair of scout pants with a broken zipper would find it far better to have the zipper replaced for a couple of bucks than $40+ for a new pair. Lead by example. I had to buy a second shirt for Woodbadge training, so I'm good to go forever without ever having to buy another. These uniforms wear like iron. Mending them is not a problem. Stosh

If this girl who is under the shadow of her over-achieving younger brother wishes to break away from his influence, why doesn't she get involved in Girl Scouts. As far as I know, it's a safe bet he can't follow her there. Stosh

We assigned the PL from last year's NBP to be the APL of this year's NBP. The reason? Because after the first year, even as PL, he's still a TF. The very first thing he told the new cross-over Webelos was to pay attention, don't skip activities, and "don't do what I did". I could have lectured for 2 hours and couldn't do any better than this kid did in 2 minutes. Stosh

POR is not a guarantee of the honor patrol in my troop. The Quartermaster, the Scribe, a Den Chief and Instructor are not part of the honor patrol. It doesn't mean they won't eventually get invited into the patrol, but at the present time, they are not. That doesn't mean than next year that these position may pass then to an honor patrol member. Honor patrol is just that, it is not a staff patrol. Technically the SPL position may indeed pass on to a non-honors patrol member as well. If that happens, the honor patrol will elect it's own PL and the SPL will function as a non-patrol SPL as the position is sometimes observed. The patch situation is quite unique in the honor patrol. They are the Ravens and carry a Raven flag, but each boy wears a different patrol patch (the old red/black one of an "animal spirit" that they feel akin to.

"I remind them each week, but I don't like to sound like a broken record. But I don't want to see a kid not advance just because he doesn't think of Scouting except 90 minutes a week!" It doesn't look good for you as a leader not to have boys advance. Bummer! Until the boy wants to advance and become a scout more than you want him to, he'll never be a scout! If this boy cannot think of scouting except for 90 minutes a week, then he surely can't pass the "Show Scout Spirit" requirement where he is expected to live the scout oath and laws in his everyday life. YOU cannot make him be a scout, only HE can! Once you learn that you will become a better scout leader. If you do this to the boy when he's a tenderfoot, don't be at all surprised when his parents do his Eagle project for him. It's what you taught him to expect out of scouting. Stosh

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but this is how we set up our honors patrol. It has a maximum of 8 members. They are brought into the patrol by invite only. They must be at least Star in rank, age is not relevant. The SPL is the PL of the honors patrol and the ASPL is the APL of the honors patrol. Every other member of the patrol must carry at least one qualifying POR. They must excel in their POR. If they are a Den Chief they must work on the Den Chief Award, etc. They must lead by example. If they quit the patrol or are asked to leave the patrol, they cannot return. The underlying goal of the patrol is to be a patrol of all Eagles. The three boys that are now Star scouts in this patrol are aged 15, 13, and 12. They are all up for Life rank at next month's COH. They will begin their Eagle projects this summer. The next candidate being groomed for the patrol is the APL of one patrol that was asked to take the job of PL of the NBP. The other is the PL of last year's NBP that was asked to be the APL of this year's NBP. Other boys that are showing leadership skills and dedication to scouting are also being considered at this point. This patrol isn't a guarantee to being the top dog in the troop. If another patrol steps up to challenge this patrol it can claim the leadership responsibilities of the honor position on their own. If they are successful, their PL will be SPL and their APL will be the ASPL. It should keep everyone from becoming complacent. Stosh

28 scouts 6 ASM 1 SM 3 patrols 2 - 8 member patrols 1 - 9 member patrol 1 - 3 member patrol (Honors Patrol) SPL - ASPL - TG SM and 2 ASM are woodbadge trained others are working on training now. I am ASM in charge of Advancement and I am advisor for honors patrol and NBP. I am also doing the organizing for summer camp this year. Another ASM does rechartering/popcorn sales etc. (paperwork junk) 2 others are new and in training last two ASM do special events and merit badge scheduling.

My favorite line is "Bummer." A boy cuts himself. I ask, "Where's your first aid kit?" Doesn't have it, Bummer! A boy needs to take notes, has no paper and pencil. Bummer! A boy forgets his mess kit on a campout. Bummer! The boy learns one of two things. A) be better prepared next time or B) whine to someone else. I drop learning exercises on the boys on a routine basis. Last camp out, a boy "broke" an ankle and needed a splint and transport back to camp. Needless to say the boys never ask me if they should bring certain items with them on an event/hike/outing anymore. Needless to say, they found sticks for splints, used neckerchiefs for bandanging and holding the splint, made a stretcher out of coats and walking staves. It was interesting that they didn't ask if they could take off their their uniforms before we left. Either they don't trust me or they are learning what be prepared is all about. Unless one spends time teaching these boys to think ahead, and come parepared for any situation, they will never develop appropriate leadership skills. The scoutmaster that brings along "extras" for the boys who forget things is doing their boys a major disservice. My boys are taught the first time to do it correctly. After that, if they are not prepared, they go without or figure out an alternative. After a while they figure it out that doing it right and being prepared is the easiest in the long run.

I took Cub Scout Training over 10 years ago. I took Webelos Training plus the Outdoor part over 10 year ago. I took Wood Badge Training over 10 years ago. I took Boy Scout Fundamentals over 10 years ago. I took Venturing training 9 years ago. I have achieved PhD level of University of Scouting about 7-8 years ago. And after all that, no one has ever wondered whether I have kept up any re-certification along the way. I've never heard of it in our council. Once you are trained, you are trained. One interesting side-note - I have learned more about scouting from the boys than I ever did sitting in a class or other training event. :^) Stosh

I have done the Cubbing stuff, the Webelos stuff, the Scouting stuff, the Venturing stuff, and there is very little difference. I was just pointing out to someone this very evening how my NBP member quoted me out of his new Boy Scout Handbook that he had already passed the Scout rank requirements because he had the AOL. I haven't had anyone call me out like that since someone read a drill manual for the Venturing crew that I have. Boys are all alike and function the same way. All one has to do is provide opportunities, and sit back and enjoy. I am the ASM responsible for the honor's patrol in our troop. They have their own identity, their own patrol flag, staffs, hats, and neckerchiefs. They have different responsibilities than the rest and are under heavier expectations than the average boy in the troop. This week, the SM asked me to orient the NBP into the troop. I sat down with them and said. What do you want to do? They talked about their patrol identity, why some had staffs and others didn't, if they could have their own hats and scarves, etc. They are all AOL and the one boy asked when he was going to get his scoutmaster's conference for the Scout rank. (Sharp kid!) I said they could have any or all of these suggestions if they wanted to work at it. The only requirement was that all members of the patrol had to agree on it so that we didn't have a patrol of haves and have-nots. They thought that was fair and they would discuss it amongst themselves over the next week or so. The interesting thing about the whole process was that members of the patrols that were not the honors patrol or the NBP came and asked why those patrols got to do special things. My answer was, this isn't "special things", these are things scouts can do if they wish anytime they as a group decides to do it. Until someone comes along and says you can't do something, anything's fair game. The best source of any boy's involvement and progress is his own imagination. Tap into it and use it. If your group is getting stale and boring, you are not engaging the power of the boys' minds! I don't care if that boy is in first grade or a senior in high school. It works the same. Stosh

A lot of the schism is a result of little or no communications between Cubs and Scouts. What little there is often times is counter-productive. At round-tables they break into two different groups and except for specialty gatherings i.e. spring camporees where they are to cross over to the new troops, they have very little contact. We have designed it to have a schism and it's working very well. The only way that things will change is to do something different. Anything different will draw a different conclusion, but the way we've always done it just isn't working. Try something else! Stosh

I find this discussion very interesting in light of recent observations I have made. First of all I'm a Crew Advisor, but decided to assist the Boy Scouts with their spring camporee. While all the adults sat around scratching their heads trying to come up with something for the boys to do at the camporee, the OA contingent of boys came in and made an announcement that they were organizing their Indian Ceremonial group on making clothing. If anyone in our troops wanted to help out with this project they were invited. Ok. Then about a half hour later they came back selling buttons for a local festival in the district as a fund raiser for OA. Ok. Then it dawned on me. Isn't OA supposed to be promoting camping and the outdoors for the boys? Why aren't they planning the camporee? I have yet to see the OA really function as they are supposed to. They do great call out, ceremonies, and elaborate ordeals, but whenever I see them doing anything it's mostly just for themselves. We're emphasizing the patrol method for this years spring camporee. Instead of troops registering, they will register as patrols, either a NBP, Regular or Veteran patrols. The activities will reflect the various differences and competitions geared for the differences as well. The boys need to be able to lead themselves. Now, if we can get the boys to plan their own camporee, maybe we will have accomplished what we're supposed to be doing in the first place. Stosh

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think one can start a crew with only dual-registered members. Secondly, if anyone tries this, I'd be pleasantly surprised if it worked. If one cannot keep older Boy Scouts interested, what makes one think it will work if all you do is change the name of the organization from Boy Scouts to Venturing? Unless you are doing High Adventure, there is nothing that couldn't be done in Boy Scouts that is being done in Venturing. And if the only thing you want to be able to do is fire handguns, then there is something seriously wrong with the reasons for wanting to start a crew in the first place.

I met with my new boy patrol this evening and uniforming was discussed. Basically the conclusion drawn by the patrol is: 1) Whatever is decided would be a group decision and the expense would be borne by each boy and not their parents. 2) All decisions must be unanimous. ALL the boys will be at the same level. 3) Anything is possible. One of the other patrols overheard our discussion and after the meeting asked if those principles applied to any other patrol or if they were just for the new boys. All of a sudden we have a whole new flurry of activity for patrol uniforms. I must also state that along with all the patrol uniforming, there is a standard TROOP uniform. When we travel or attend an activity as a troop, that uniform prevails. The patrol identifications are for patrol activities or when we are at an event functioning as a patrol. That means the boys are expected to carry dual uniforms. Stosh

We have the policy that if you wish other scouts to attend and support your eagle project, you had better set a good example by showing up at the meetings and helping the younger boys with their advancement. When the older scouts don't get the necessary eagle project help, too bad. Too often the hypocracy of their "leadership" is obvious to all. Those eagle scouts who have remained active in the troop do not have any help from their friends in the troop. Those that don't have a tough time garnering a labor force from strangers.

I'll chime in on the small troop concept. Our SPL, ASPL, and another Star ranked scout make up the honors patrol. They basically function as a patrol of JASM's. They are the go-to people that keep things running. The NSP has 6 new members with assigned PL/APL from older boys. The ASM of the honors patrol and NSP is the same person. There are three other patrols, one of older scouts which hangs together working on Eagle projects and two other patrols which have lost sufficient numbers to eventually merge. That was recommended by one of the patrol leaders when we took the PL from one patrol and the APL from the other to lead the NSP. I see that merger happening within the next couple of weeks. Each patrol functions independently of the others and combine programming on occasion. If we are doing a major instructional program for the NSP, one of the other patrols might jump in and help with the hands-on/one-on-one training part of the program. The PL of the NSP is functionally the Troop Guide and the APL of the NSP is the Instructor. We have a large number of scouts that serve dual POR's The SPL is the PL of the Honors Patrol and the ASPL is the APL of the Honors Patrol and a Den Chief in a Webelos Den. The other Honors Patrol member is a Den Chief as well and will drop out of his patrol regularly to be Instructor to the NSP. Our leadership continually bubbles to the top. If the PL of the NSP does well this year with the boys he will be a prime candidate for the Honors Patrol as soon as he attains the Star rank. Another scout that steps up to the plate and shows leadership potential will be asked to be PL of next year's NSP. Leadership is trained, demonstrated, and rewarded in our troop. Not everyone aspires to leadership and may fulfill their POR responsibilities as a Quartermaster or Scribe. However, those who wish to work with others usually cut their teeth as a Den Chief, and work there way up through the leadership levels along with their personal achievements of rank. Keep it in mind, ASPL/PL/Den Chief of the Honors Patrol was not able to go on our winter high adventure activity this year because although he was at Star rank, he was not old enough to qualify. The rule we follow revolves around: "We will provide the opportunities, it's up to you to make something of them." Not everyone rises to the occasion, which is ok, there will be other opportunities, but those who do step up find the benefits of leadership far more rewarding than the benefits of rank.

Maybe you're right, but I also have a patrol in the troop I work with that dropped $50 each for hats, $5 for walking staves, and $20 for custom made neckerchiefs for a cool $75. No one complained and the boys show up with more esprit-de-corps than the rest and we have other boys clammoring to pay the $75 and join the patrol. Again, it's not the money, it's the attitude/priority/value that is being instilled. Maybe my patrol is an exception too. We'll see, I'm going to work on the new boy patrol next. They might all look really cool in campaign hats. We'll have to find out what they want to do. Stosh

11 Webelos "crossed-over" at their Blue-Gold banquet. 6 joined our troop and the other 5 were done with scouting. When I asked what was going on, it would seem the Webelos den leader wasn't encouraging the boys to go on. All 11 were Arrow of Light. That pack needs a new Webelos leader.

I started scouts at age 11 and that was just about the time I began shoveling walks, raking yards and digging gardens. I held a part-time job until I went off to college. Well, I was one of the few boys who had a full uniform, could pay for my own trips and camps, and didn't take any food off my family's table. It's call A SCOUT IS TRIFTY. The purchase of one iPod would cover a lot of expenses when it comes to BSA. Cell phone? Well, that would cover the rest. This whole discussion is not a discussion of expenses, it's a discussion of priorities. I have Venturers who will spend a minimum of $1200-$1500 to be a part of the crew and haven't had anyone have to drop out because they couldn't afford it. Check out the prices of hockey equipment, soccor equipment, show choir costumes, YMCA membership, etc. etc. etc. BSA is one of the least expensive of the options out there facing the kids today.

My venturing crew's uniforms run into the hundreds of dollars. The shoes alone are a minmum of $65 and max out around $150. Coat? $65, pants, $50, leather gear $115, shirt $25, hat $40, weapon, $475, canteen $35, etc. Not everyone is into reenacting, but nothing out there is cheap. A scout is Thrifty. He earns his own way. Whether it be a uniform shirt and patches or a full reenactor's uniform, the boy is expected to get off the sofa, away from in front of the TV/Computer, and raise the money. I have a patrol hat that each boy has to come up with $50 to have. It's not an option if you wish to be part of that patrol. But then, you don't have to be part of the patrol either. The only stipulation is the boy has to raise the $50 on his own. He can't get it from mom and dad. I have boys waiting in line with money in hand, so there's something here that seems to be working.

We do it all wrong. The new boys coming in are grouped into units of 6 and are assigned a patrol leader and assistant patrol leader from qualified older boys. This guarantees them 2 advocates along with Troop Guide so that they can become oriented to the new troop while still retaining their identity coming in with their friends from Webelos. If the Webelos den had a "patrol" name instead of a den numeral, that is also retained. The den flag, if there was one, is also modified to reflect their transition into Boy Scouts. It is expected that each patrol do the program for the evening when assigned. The new patrols would be hopelessly lost if they were to be put into this position. The older patrol leaders buffer the boys while giving instruction on how the Troop is run rather than just running them into the program and expecting them to figure it out on their own.

Does discrediting the messenger negate the message? I really don't worry too much about who says it, but what is said kinda stands out for me. I do think the BSA like many other traditional values in America have come under attack, been forced to change or have fallen by the wayside. If John Doe said scouts were "under attack" by today's society, would it be taken seriously?

On the other end of the spectrum, our crew politely declines acceptance of any ribbons and if the event insists that they receive them, they go in the fire before we leave. While it defeats the whole purpose of issuing ribbons, it does keep one's life from becoming cluttered.

In our council if you don't have you're charter in 2 weeks before your charter expires, you're late. As far as the process goes. Here's how it worked for me this year. I get a phone call from DE wondering if I'm going to be at R/T to pick up my packet? (I'm registered in 2 different districts with two different units). Nope, Well, then can I stop at the scout office and pick it up? Ok. Phone call to DE asking for code to online register. Call back with number. Go online, make the changes, etc, get check from treasurer of the group, get signatures and get back a week "late", a week prior to charter expiration, do the money transfer with the lady at the council counter, and I'm good to go for another year. Of course the lady at the counter tells me all the stuff about rechartering that has changed from last year, the added costs, and extra forms to fill out that weren't in the packet. What I'd like to know is what's all this "stuff" about DE's, Commissioners, visits, etc. You mean to tell me they're actually supposed to follow the directions on the packet? News to me and I've been doing this for about 9 years now.

A son climbs a tree. His mother say, "Be careful!" His father says, "How high can you go?" How that for a totally politically incorrect response? A daughter climbs a tree. Her mother says, "Get down now!" Her father says nothing, he knows better than to mess with that one. The world around us is changing and scouting is changing too.