Stosh

I think Shakespear said it best: "Much ado about nothing." Why don't they have make-up sections at Walmart for boys? Why don't they have iPods for grandparents? 3-piece suits for toddlers? Marketing always was and always will be specific to different ethnic groups, genders, and ages. There is no way high heeled shoes manufactured, advertised and sold specifically for females offends me in any way. I probably won't look very good in a plunging neckline dress either, but they advertise them pretty much exclusively for women as well. If someone wants to market a book for boys, what's the big deal? I have over 50 different books sitting on my shelves right now that are a collection of BSA edition books titled "Every Boys Library". The titles include: CALL OF THE WILD, TREASURE ISLAND, 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA, BEN HUR, HANDBOOK FOR BOYS, THE BOY'S BOOK OF NEW INVENTIONS, and HANDICRAFT FOR OUTDOOR BOYS. There's nothing that says females can't read these books. More power to them if they wish. But why can't boys read books written specifically for boys? Is there something inherently wrong with this? If there is, then there must be something inherently wrong with selling make-up and dresses to women. Ever notice that since day 1 the BSA has been selling a magazine to boys called "BOYS' LIFE" and no one seems to be all that upset about it? Remember: only a fool stands up in a canoe. :^) Stosh

"In a new troop that training comes from the Scoutmaster. He must train the youth leaders and then monitor and mentor those youth leaders as they train the younger Scouts." With all due respect, I beg to disagree with your assessment of my comments. Since when is education and training not part of essential support? That is exactly what I proposed. The patrol does the work and is supported by the PLC and adult corps of leaders. I would find it rather ridiculous to think the SPL would be able to teach the PL/APL without having been trained by someone. In this case the SM's responsibility is to train the SPL. Is that not supporting the boys in their responsibilities? There is a line between training and doing on the part of the adults that many adults haven't quite grasped in many cases, i.e. all the examples being proposed by forum members. "I don't know many teenaged boys that would feel comfortable with that kind of responsibility - not even if they feel full ownership of their troop. My personal feeling is that it is the SM responsibility to deal with the other adults." I know many teenaged boys that feel comfortable with this kind of responsibility especially when they have full ownership of their patrols. If a boy-led member cannot request an adult not take away his responsibility to the boys, then that youth is not really leading. If they don't feel this way, they need to be encouraged and trained to do so. Otherwise every adult that interacts with the troop will automatically have the priviledge to interfere with the leadership of the group, even if they aren't registered members of the troop, i.e. parents, etc. This past meeting our NBP was learning how to set up tents in preparation for the Camporee in the next couple of weeks. The APL (Tenderfoot) acquired keys to the scout trailer and went out with the QM to get a tent. He took his patrol with him so they would know where in the trailer the tents would be stored. They brought in the tent and began the process of setting it up. Two adults stepped in to "help" instruct the new boys. At this point, I quietly informed the TG that the adults were taking away the leadership opportunity of the APL to lead this session of learning. Within a few minutes the adults were no longer part of the process and the boys returned back to their learning session. When they were done, they returned the tent back to the trailer and returned the keys to the SM. I don't know what the TG said or did, but there were no ruffled feathers, no hard feelings, and the boys accomplished their task. Of course, having adult leaders who are all on the same page with having the boys lead every possible situation in the troop helps the boys with their interactions with adults. Who would have demonstrated true leadership if I had gone over and asked the adults to step back and let the boys do their session? This is part of the educational support necessary for a truly boy-led patrol. If the adults cannot provide a learning environment for the boys, then they are attempting to usurp the leadership of the boys rather than support them. No boy is going to feel confident enough to step forward and address an adult as a peer if ultimately they know it is a losing proposition. If that's threatening to your corps of adults, you need different adults. As far as the size of your troop is concerned, you have the best opportunity of all to develop this environment. For a patrol method troop, all you really need to start with is a patrol. You can add support structures to that later on. :^) Stosh

Here's the whole picture. Webelos are the transition years from Cubs to Boys. If during these two important years they are continued to be "cared for" and never given the opportunity to do it on their own, they will miss out on one of the most important aspects of the Webelos program. The gears shift and the adult leadership begins the process of the boys taking leadership opportunities and the fate of their own decisions and actions into their own hands. If a boy makes a lousy slide, so what, at least he made it. Anytime something gets handed to them without any personal investment it will be of lesser value to the boy. If on the other hand an Eagle Scout stands up at his Court of Honor wearing the slide he made as a Webelos, there will be many people at that event who will notice and appreciate it as much as the Eagle. I had a boy lose a hand-tied Turk's Head woggle on a day hike on a campout. He was upset. I handed him another piece of rope and told him to just make another. Later that evening I notice he had a woggle holding his neckerchief once more, but I also noticed the rope was not the one I had given him. He had gone back and searched the entire hike trail until he found the original. Never underestimate the value of one's own hands. The lesson you are teaching is not slide making, it is memory making. :^) Stosh

Patrol Method is not something that just appears out of the sky blue. It is something that is created. If the troop is young, it takes quite a bit of "adult intervention" to make this happen. No one can follow a goal if they don't know what it is. This might also apply in a situation where the troop is going to relearn the PM because it hasn't been traditionally done in the troop. First of all, the #1 assumption on the part of all adults is that they are going to be working themselves out of a job. Then clarify the goal of PM to the boys and begin the training process. For the SPL and PLC, it is learning how to TEACH. The PL and APL are then taught how to DO. For me this is the key to the PM process. PL and APL are the doers of leadership, the PLC demonstrate leadership by supporting/teaching the patrol leadership and the adults demonstrate leadership by leading by example as they function in support/teaching of the PLC leadership. The discussion on the forum consistantly brings up the subject of adults "helping" too much. I seldom dress down an adult in front of the boys. Instead I go to the PL/APL/SPL or whomever and say, "There's an adult taking away your leadership opportunity." and then leave it up to the boy to correct the problem. Although it may not be obvious in the literature of the BSA, my PLC is serving the needs of the patrols. Each opening page of the handbooks makes a quick and often overlooked reference to servant leadership. This means they are supportive of those whom they serve. PL serves his patrol members. The SPL serves the patrol leadership, as does the troop POR positions. The adults serve the needs of the youth leadership development. If the flow of authority starts at the adults and filters down to the boys in the patrols, then it is adult led. If the patrols are serviced by the youth and subsequently the adults, then it is boy led. The most important group that functions is the patrol. If they don't come first, then it is not the patrol method. If the PLC doesn't serve the patrols, then it is not the patrol method, if the programming, ideas and creativity doesn't originate in the patrols, it isn't the patrol method. If the PLC run the show, then it may be boy led but it is not the patrol method. The welfare of the patrol is the core to a sucessful program. That's the patrol method. Stosh

Our honor patrol makes their own Turk's Head woggles. It takes about 10 minutes and when they lose it, they can replace with another 2' piece of parachute cord in about 10 mintues. The nice thing about it is one doesn't have to rubber band the neckerchief, tie knots in it an do all sorts of strange things to keep from losing the slide. If they lose it, just make a new one. White cord is the color of their patrol woggle that goes with their patrol neckerchief.

This shouldn't be that difficult to figure out. 1) use the 2nd & 1st class requirements out of the Scout HB as the basis for your instruction. It is very basic, interesting and the boys are fascinated by the new info. Webelos I've used it with are always interested, especially when the maps come out of the area you are in. Topo's can be gotten off the internet for anywhere in the US. Download and print off. 2) Buy a nice compass the first time. Buying a junk compass for $5 and then having to buy another later on at $10 means the scout has invested $15 in a $10 compass. Get the Sylva method compass. They are inexpensive and last forever. I don't use a liquid filled compass, they will eventually leak, and aren't good in cold weather. If it takes longer for the needle to stop spinning, it's no big deal, a little patience isn't a bad thing to learn along the way. It also gives the mind something to ponder and plan when waiting for the needle to stop as well. (Very helpful when you are "unsure" of where you are in the woods) I purchased a basic BSA Silva Method compass as a kid in scouts. After 45 years, that very same compass is in the right cargo pants pocket of my scout uniform. As an adult, I purchased a second one (identical) and that's in the glove compartment of my car. The original compass has been in the hands of hundreds of boys learning, it's been to BWCA, Philmont and just about every major national park in the country. It has been with me every time I've hunted the Mississippi backwater swamps in the area. It's just as good as the day I bought it. If the boys are really going to learn to use the compass, get a good one right from the start. Learn to use it right. And each boy that ever goes into the woods will know he's taking his best friend with him when he goes. Stosh

The tradition is: do what you want. There is no such thing as "Right hand salute", there is no such thing as "Scouts Salute", there is no such thing as "Square off to the flag", there is no such thing as "Retreat the colors", there is no such thing as "Too/Tu/2/Two/To". If one were to do it right, no one would know what is going on. Back in the 1970's the BSA was trying desparately to distance themselves from the military and so they began to make up stuff along the way. Some of the traditions are still with us, but just because it's tradition doesn't make it correct. Scouts have been doing it respectfully incorrect for the past 20-30 years. The proper command for a flag ceremony is "Color Guard, get in line", "Color Guard, take your hands out of your pockets", "Color Guard make sure everyone has their shirts tucked in", "Color Guard, take your hats off in the building," "Okay guys, come forward," "Ahaa!", Color Guard go back to the beginning, I didn't say Color Guard", "Scouts and Leaders attention, salute, present the colors". "Forward March,", "Color Guard halt," "Color guard cross over and post the colors, American Flag on the right....Your other right", "Please follow me in the Pledge...." "2". Where in the Flag Code does it give any of this? No where. Where do they give any direction on conducting a flag ceremony? No where. How are flag ceremonies to be conducted then? According to military protocol, which of course, the BSA doesn't do, so you're dead in the water before you even start. So keep on plugging away and don't worry about whether or not you're doing it right. You probably aren't, but then, except for the military, no one knows how it's done anyway. Stosh

Because no one ahderes to the Flag Code anymore, it's pretty much do as you wish with the flag. The scouts don't follow military protocol and make up their own rules at they go along anyway. Because of this, 1) the boys never learn any consistancy, 2) they adopted whatever custom they are familiar with, and 3) never know what the Code really says. Unless there are some local traditions, everyone pretty much does what they wish with the courtesy to the Flag. If one were to actually read the original Code, they would be VERY surprised with what was originally intended and what is actually "taught" and "practiced" today. The modern guideline basically says, if it's "respectful" it's ok. If that makes no practical sense to you, well, welcome to the club. Stosh

Ok, I'm going to take a lot of heat on this one, but there are specific differences between the leadership of men and women. Women tend to be more organized, caring and nurturing. If that be the goal of your organization, get women involved. Men tend to be more spontaneous, agressive and adventuresome. If that be the goal, get the men involved. There's nothing that says it can't be blended goals as well. But the expectations and goals will definitely vary. As a scout grows it is imperative to realize that the drive behind his progress will vary on the the male/female support they receive. This is why a mother/father combination is a natural balance in most world communities. A young boy is climbing a tree..... The mom will stand at the bottom, look up and say, "Be careful, or you might get hurt!". The dad will stand at the bottom, look up and say, "How high can you climb!". Draw your leadership on the basis of what you wish to accomplish. Scouting used to be traditionally Den Mothers with the caring, nurturing, kinds of growth for the younger boys and the male SM's for the more adventuresome and challenging aspects of later youth. Now that the world has changed. Either don't worry about it and take what you get, or design it according to what you wish to accomplish. Stosh

I dropped back into Cubbing to work on my Woodbadge ticket. I was working on the Webelos/Boy Scout transition process. I enjoyed the process so well I did a second year, then stayed on for a few more years and worked on Webelos adult training to pass on what I had learned. Those were great years, had a good time doing it. Then the council got me going on Venturing and I moved on to another interest. Still none of these "changes" were motivated by having a boy in any of the programs.

I guess I'll take a stab at it. My point of view is: No man is an island. In order for anyone to function in this world, they are in need of some sort of support group(s). Be it family, friends, school, organizations, or whatever. The basic core where one learns these dynamics of community is family. For the most part, this "support group" family doesn't exist anymore. Every couple standing at the altar/before the Justice of the Peace, has better odds flipping a coin of being together in 5 years than the odds of the current divorce rate. With that being said, where does community and sense of belonging come from? Where are the support groups? Who's there for them? When these things are weak or non-existant, individuals cope by not making, or getting involved in what is preceived as unsupportive groups. Why do you think gangs are so popular? Ever hear of a SM saying, if the parents would be more supportive? All this is symptomatic of the decline in community of our culture. It has become progressively worse over the past 40 years when the ME generation revolted (successfully, I might add) against such things as marriage and family. Both parents work and are exhausted when they come home to the "family". Their schedules are horrendous, with something going on from morning til night with each individual going their separate ways. When the schedule is clear, they do TV/Computer/XBox, kinds of individual activities rather than learning how to interact with other people. Well, once the mortar is gone, what holds the bricks together? Stosh

Yep, but that's not the problem. 1) Your boy will be going on into Boy Scouts and developing independence as he grows to maturity. Does he really want you to be tagging along? Even if you do, you will need to step back and let him grow. 2) You reall enjoy the Cubs. Stick with them. When my son dropped out of scouts (at Star rank) he was surprised I didn't drop out as well. Surprise! I wasn't in it for him. 10 years later, I'm still here. I also started a Venturing Crew that my daughter was part of for a couple of years, but dropped out 3 years ago. Not a problem. Go where you want to and let your kids grow up through the program. Who's to say you can't stay CM for the next 10 years if you enjoy it? If the local hospital was looking for volunteers, would you break your kid's arm so you'd have a reason to volunteer? Stosh

I would think the #1 reason you were picked to "judge" was because the pack wished to have some great interaction between the younger and older boys. Judging, praising, working with the boys, etc. all go well for developing relationships with these impressionable young boys and somewhere down the road, one or two of the boys will remember the great day they had with the Sea Scouts, they just may sign up. This sounds like a fantastic two-way street for everyone concerned. Have a great day with the Cubs!!! Stosh

If one works at it long enough, they ought to be able to justify just about any action, decision, or rule-breaking they might wish to do. Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's correct.

If one gets involved in discussions with national, one will quickly find that they are very cooperative and willing to review the "rules" to accommodate individual situations. While our Venturing Crew does not conform to explicit BSA rules, it does comply to an even greater extent to the rules of the hobby in which the crew operates. To try and comply with both sets of rules would be impossible. With this however being said, it took 3-4 years of dialogue to come to this consensus. Stosh

A scout is trustworthy.... How would anyone ever expect these scouts to ever get to tenderfoot when things like this happen? Obviously the Scout Law means nothing to these people. We've had our share of people stiff us for varying amounts of money and equipment. Small claims court and lawyer letters have gone a long way to help out with these kinds of problems. Stosh

As far as the religious knot is concerned, it can be earned repeatedly. The little device that indicates the level at which the award was earned can be done for each level of scouting. That means when the boy earns the knot as a cub, he puts the cub device on the knot. He can then re-earn it at the next higher level with the appropriate program for that age group and put a boy scout device on, etc. As an adult, the scouter who earned the award as a boy does not put the adult knot on. He retains his youth knot with devices. Stosh

Depending on your situation one pack/one troop, well liked effective DC, etc.: If you have a Webelos den with a well liked Den Chief, he may wish to "say good-bye" to his den and thank them for a good cubbing experience, walk over to the other side, and "say hello" as their new PL or TG who then introduces each one to the SM and troop. Stosh

I know those to be myths because no two scout camps have the same rules when it comes to knives. As far as the toten chit, I don't buy into the 4 corner myth thingy. I've confiscated a knife and tore up the toten chit on the first offense if it was severe enough. Obviously the scout wasn't paying attention during the instruction. Stosh

After reading how dumb my logic was, I'll clarify. Full handled shovel is included in the wood tools at camp, NOT included in the tools that are banned. Saw and shovel comprise the Fire Guard. I need a proof reader. I would also agree that saws are far worse than axes. I've never been hurt with axe or hatchet, but been nicked numerous times with a saw. And how does one embed a hatchet in the leg? Axe maybe, but a hatchet? Stosh

It might do well to discuss the whole issue of wood tools as well as the pocket knife. Our local camp has done away with the axe and has restricted wood cutting to just buck saws. Full handled shovels are also included. What other tools would be useful? We have found that a small miltary trenching tool works well for moving coals around when Dutch oven cooking. A very sharp and axe (hatchet) can make kindling a lot faster, easier and safer than a pocket knife. I find that a sheath knife fits the bill far better than a pocket knife when it comes to safe-food handling. One cannot prepare food with a pocket knife and expect it not to contaminate when not properly cleaned. A sheath knife is no bigger/smaller than most food prep knives in the average chuck box. Of course all these tools can be used incorrectly and for that reason they tend to be banned from scout activities. However, when properly trained, the banned equipment is often times far safer than the allowed equipment. Stosh

As I stated in my original post, "The length of blade most often is determined by state and local laws, not BSA policy. Generally speaking a pocket knife can have a blade of 2.5" or shorter in length to be legally carried concealed in the pocket." If memory serves me correctly this was federal guidelines for all air travel before 9/11. Now, with the introduction of such folding knives such as buck knives and Leatherman tools with knife blades that exceed the 2.5" length, they come with a belt sheath and are not considered POCKET KNIVES and thus should be carried, exposed to view in the sheath, rather than hidden in the pocket. As a Civil War reenactor who has a tendency to carry Bowie knives with lengths greater than 2.5", one has to be sure they are not on national battlefields, national parks, and other federally controled places. This also includes handguns, rifles, and swords. I was not referring to Wisconsin law, I was referring to conversations I have had with federal employees whom I have talked with over the years that have explained such policy to me in length. I have gone into courthouses and left my scout knife at the desk and picked it up when I returned to leave. Not a problem, but I did notice that they opened it up and measured the blade before they set it aside for my return. No, I was not speaking in terms of personal opinion, I was speaking in terms of personal experience having talked with official law enforcement personnel at the specific locations. While one may get off with a slap on the wrist for wearing a sheath knife in a Boy Scout camp where they are forbidden, you probably will draw a far more severe reaction from a National Park Service warden. I'm sure the warden will be a lot more severe than taking off a corner of your toten chit. Every location can have it's own ordinances, don't assume anything. Stosh

The length of blade most often is determined by state and local laws, not BSA policy. Generally speaking a pocket knife can have a blade of 2.5" or shorter in length to be legally carried concealed in the pocket. Sheath knives are legal as long as they are carried in the open. If one is wearing their Jac coat and it conceals the knife, it is not legal. If one is driving in the car, it would be wise to remove the knife and display it on the dashboard in plain view while driving. The BSA Knife Police might be more demanding than the real police, but the real guys can carry more weight behind their words. Forgot to add: When one is in a national park/forest/reserve and are pulled over for an infraction, it is a federal offense. State parks - state offense, etc. Be careful. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Never said we had 12 year olds registered as Venturers. I stated: "There are not many organizations where a 12-14 year old can be viewed as an equal with an adult, and in some cases, stand superior." The generality "many organizations" was selected rather than "Venturing" for a reason. I can assure you that most venturing crews are NOT viewed as an equal with an adult. For those who are unaware of the reenacting world, it is a family oriented hobby. People of all ages are involved, including infants. We as a Venturing Crew do a military impression of the Civil War period. Our venture crew boys/girls interact with people of all ages in the hobby. The 12 year old boy who is "associated" with our crew is a fully-registered Boy Scout and also a member of a sister organization of our CO. Yes, boys younger than venturers are and can be members of the CO before they join the crew this has happened numerous times in our crew alone. We have this 12 year-old boy fall in with us and is treated as if he is any other member of the hobby. By the way, his father is one of our registered adult scouters, but remains a member of the sister organization. His son, being a fully functional bugler, his skills are in great demand at reenactments and given full respect due a functional musician. Our venturers are infantry and carry weapons, the 12 year old Boy Scout does not. When we have venturing drills, people older and younger than crew age fall in for the training. When I function as an adjutant at events, I have both BSA registered and CO registered youth falling in and participating on equal status with adults. My apologies for the oversite of explanation, but when I was referring to "organization" it was not meant as specifically BSA Venturing, but an "organization" in general where youth are not viewed as peers by adults as they are in the reenacting hobby. As a cutting-edge venturing crew, we are fully aware of every dot and iota of BSA rules and regulations. We are a crew that could fold overnight with just one small slip of safety awareness. With many years of expertise, we take boys of "all ages" into a world that many of them only read about in books or watch on TV. Capt. Stosh :^)

Like Sea Scouting, our crew has little or nothing to do with other BSA crews. They have a by-law and SOP papers drawn up, but they do not follow the BSA outlined program, nor do they work on advancement. What they do they do way beyond the expectations of the area of interest they are involved with, they are totally dedicated to the program and basically ignore the offerings of the BSA. The recognition they have garnered is the accolades of adults they work with and rub elbows with. There are not many organizations where a 12-14 year old can be viewed as an equal with an adult, and in some cases, stand superior. There's no patch or pin that can do that for my crew members. Sea Scouts should be Sea Scouts. Venturers should be Venturers. End of discussion. Stosh