Stosh

Over the past 15 years that I have been a part of the troop, out of all the Eagle scouts we have produced, no one ever raised even $1 for a project. There are plenty of project out there that people need done that cost the project nothing other than what the sponsor provides. Some of the projects that have been done are: benches along a trails, observation decks for wild life refuge, park pavilions, picnic gazebo, DNR surveys, abandoned nature trail restoration, falconry nests, VA survey of military cemetery markers, etc. These are not little projects just to get the boy the experience, these are adult level projects that require some heavy-duty leadership, but no fund-raising for the boys. There are a ton of projects out there needing organization and elbow grease that people are willing to provide whatever it takes to make it happen. Stosh

Ed, Yes, you are correct. However, there tends to be an abuse of that especially as the boy rounds out his Cub experience. I would think that in Tiger, Wolf and Bear a lot of interaction between the boy and parents. This would show the boy the development of skills and help parents to understand the Cub program. However, as the Cubs move into Webelos, the parents need to begin encouraging their boys to be more independent while still being close. The Boys need to do more and more "on their own" and parents need to step back. When this process doesn't happen and the parents are as involved with their Webelos as if they were Tigers, there's something wrong. When you have boys earn ALL the Webelos pins, AOL and everything Cubbing has to offer and the boy does not cross over to Boy Scouts, there's something wrong. When the first year Boy Scout can't go to camp the first year because dad can't get the week off from work, there's something wrong. I'm not contradicting what you are emphasizing Ed, but by the time a Cub reaches Webelos II, there should be a substantial amount of independence built up so the boy will feel more comfortable about his new opportunities. This, of course, requires a lot of parental support to make this happen and that parental support comes in the stepping back and let the boy try out his wings. Stosh

Along with the expedition hat and the campaign hat, the baseball style is an official hat of BSA. No other pins are recommended for that hat. The red beret is also still an official BSA hat. Plan accordingly, your mileage may vary. :^) Stosh

evmori: While the Eagle and AOL may have different emphasis, the comparison I was referring to was that in both cases the award can be and often times is earned by the parent and not the boy, regardless of how the program was set up to accomplish. Derby cars are supposed to be built with adult cooperation, but we all know that expectation falls short of it's intended goal as well. Parents who get away with this in cubbing follow their boys all the way through and expect to get it done for their boy doing their Eagle. Unless the interference is stopped early, it will be genuinely difficult once the boy gets to the upper ranks of Boy Scouting. There's a markedly different ideal between encouraging a boy to do something and doing it for him. I've seen AOL parents just as agressive as Eagle candidate parents. Stosh

Maybe you can get a moderator to move this thread over to an appropriate category. On the other hand, what do you do with parents that do the same thing for the Arrow of Light for their Webelos boy? Stosh

When dealing with the Uniform Police it is important to remember that in order to go by the rules, one has to really go by the rules. Since our troop does not recognize any official hat, we tend to wear what we want. I have a non-official campaign hat of the brown color which I place a first class pin on. Historically this I believe was the standard for all scouts adult and youth. The only difference was the quality of the hat itself, not the pins. When I am in "uniform" the hat tends to be optional. If I'm instructed to remove my non-official hat during a flag ceremony, does that also include my non-official blue jeans as well? The Uniform Police are working on that problem as we speak. My expedition hat is official, but so badly slouched it is often not recognizable as such. The color is quite faded. The Philmont brands on the brim are somewhat of a distraction, but livable. The adult pin that I had on it originally went by the wayside many moons ago. The crown fits closer to the skull than the campaign hat and the backings dig into one's skull. That was one wound and the pin was history. Instead I have gone to the historic ASM pin instead. It is the first class pin but becauseof it's color shows rank and with the pin clasp, the harmful parts are not on the inside of the hat. It is also adorned with other "stuff" such as a hat cord and brass numerals to indicate the troop number. Because it is so worn and faded, the Uniform Police overlook it as a non-official hat. On the other hand the boys in one of our patrols have adopted an official hat and they wear the expedition hat with first class pin, hat cord and numerals. It is what they decided they wanted. Stosh

Bob58 put this thread in the Cub Scout category. My apologies to Bob if this is not what he intended, but it's a good question and we all have parents like this in our troops so I moved it to this category. Stosh So I finished reading the e-mail from a Star Scout Mom that started "**** has completed his six months of service its time to arrange for a Board of Review...." Third, she copied the whole troop, second, if I'm not mistaken there is the question of a Scoutmasters Conference, and FIRST... why isn't her son making this request! He is the Senior Patrol Leader, is suposed to set the weekly agenda and does routinely ask if anyone needs a SM confernce or BoR. Mom insists loudly & often that "**** will be an Eagle like @@@@@@." (A much older & self-motivated family friend (?) who is now teaching after earning his Eagle and a BA & MA from Ivy league schools.) I'm in favor of buying an extra pin giving it to the mom for the mom & letting the son... Sorry, Any advice...

Are the shorts too long? Are the pants too long? If the shorts are too long, shorten at the zipper, but then your pants will be too short. If the pants are too long, shorten by rehemming. I'm assuming the new pants are sold by inseam measurements rather than the required hemming of the older pants. Stosh

A scout is trustworthy. If a scout gives his word, he lives up to it. If he signs up for camp he has made a promise and he needs to pay whether he goes or not. We had a boy pull this stunt on a Philmont trip of big bucks. He figured by dropping out he would get out of it. Small claims court said otherwise. Stosh

When our crew participates in a "national" event involving 10,000 - 15,000+ people, it has nothing to do with the BSA. We, like many of the Venture crews that are not "high adventure" interested in participating in things that are of no interest to us. With councils struggling to provide district or council wide activities for Venturing, why would anyone think an activity of national proportions be a better draw? Stosh

Somehow I lose the logic of this argument! A SM can effectively run a troop for 5-10-20 years. A CM can't make it beyond 2-3 years before burn out. A healthy pack turns over their leadership every three years, but that would basically harm the continuity of a troop. How can it be both ways? I vote for longevity. If the SM or CM begin to harm the program the CC visits with him/her and they work out a solution. Until that point, the SM or CM stays on as long as they wish. I've been an ASM under the same SM for over 15 years and our program is excellent. Do I aspire to be a SM? Nope. Everyone has their niche. Find it and stay there as long as you wish. By the way, the CC, ASM, CM's and SM of our troop no longer have boys in the program. We do it because we enjoy it. If a pack has a person that falls into that category, go for it! I would rather have a CM who enjoys it rather than a CM who "has a kid in the program" who's doing it for his kid. Stosh

Rule of thumb: If adults or PLC dictate, decide, direct, manage or run the patrols, then NO, it is not the Patrol Method. If adults or PLC support, encourage, assist the patrols, then YES, it is the Patrol Method. Stosh

We all learn the tough lessons in life the hard way. A boy-led troop is the only way to go. There are a lot of boys out there that fit into the "exceptional" boy you describe. As a matter of fact there are a lot of exceptional boys out there that we as adults often times totally ignore, stifle, or drive out of scouting and mark it off to girls, cars and money, when in fact it was really us as adults. Stosh

History 101 Color Guard: group of NCO officers responsible for the maintenance and positioning of the unit flags for the purpose of unit identification during maneuvers/battle. A color guard usually consisted of 10 armed men and 2 color bearers. The purpose of the guard was to insure the flag could be seen during battle and maneuvers. The armed men protected the color bearers. Up until WW I the color guard was no longer needed on the battlefield. Once the soldier entrenched himself, the need of a color guard was needed only for parade functions. Today it is only ceremonial in nature. Parade formations are outlined by the military and Flag Code of 1923. Normally flag ceremonies are held outdoors around a flag pole, funeral, or parade. Indoors the flags are mostly established before the meeting. The Color indicates one US flag, if there be only one flag it comes forward with an armed guard on each side. If a second flag is introduced it is done so at the left of the Color. This could be a state flag, regimental flag, or whatever. If a third flag is introduced, the Color returns to the front row flanked on each side with an armed guard and the remaining flags form a second line. Now, scouts are not armed, thus they guard nothing. Here's where the free-for-all begins and people start making up the rules as they go along. The term color guard refers to all members of the ceremonial squad responsible for the flag whether they carry a flag or not. The Color Guard is everyone. A color guard is an armed person who protects a color bearer. A color is a flag Colors are multiple flags The Colors are a group of flags one of which is the US flag. The term Colors which refer to the US flag alone is incorrect. Always remember one is using terms and procedures from two different entities and both do it differently. One is directed by military protocol (US Armed Forces) and the other is directed by no protocol (BSA and other civilian organizations)

Exactly!

I have a Venturing Crew of Civil War reenactors that has a system to circulate uniforms. It's a major headache, but we cover uniforms, shoes, weapons, hats, shirts, leather belts and boxes, haversacks, canteens, etc. etc. etc. :^) Just be thankful shirts and pants are the only thing you need worry about. Our Crew owns the inventory. They buy, or get handed, equipment which goes into the inventory. It is bought and sold at fair market value. If a boy sells us his equipment for $1, we sell it for $1. Records are horrendous, but we do pretty fair in light of it all. We also buy new equipment for the boys and they pay back the Crew as they are able. We save a lot on shipping costs that way, keeps the cost down for the boys. Once you get this established, you can keep the boys in the right sized shirts throughout his scouting. eBay is a great way to pick up used shirts. Again, keep track of the cost and sell it at cost. Nice things go for higher prices. That way everything is on the up and up. Stosh

One of the first things I teach each member of the NBP is how to sew on patches. There is nothing that will wreck a shirt faster than glue or iron-on attempts to adhere patches. A poor job of sewing can always be corrected, a good job of gluing can't. Stosh

Sure there are trained "professionals" out there who have the responsibility to counsel in this area. However, one-on-one with a trusted advisor is often times more important. My "guidance counselor" in high school said I should apply at the local foundry after high school in order to get a good job, etc. Well, I didn't take her advice, and now hold AA, BS, and MS degrees and work for a multi-billion dollar international company. Don't underestimate your ability to help these kids just because you're just a scoutmaster. My Eagles and others are still in contact, I talk with them when I see them and the first thing I ask them is, "What cha been up to?" That's vocational counseling that is often more helpful than what a professional often gives.

GernBlansten: I disagree. At least you see the problem. Obviously JLT isn't working, but that doesn't mean one can go through the motions and still not abducate the reins to the kids. I constantly drive at the kids, "What do YOU want to be doing?" "Where do YOU want to go?" and the open the doors of opportunity. If they want to go to BWCA, the standard answer is, "Great, I want to go along, when do we leave?" Always leave the responsibility AND authority in the hands of the kids. "10 day forcast on the Weather Channel says this weekend is going to be sunny and warm. We should be going camping. Who's up for a campout?" Which is quickly followed by "Where do YOU want to go!" Don't rely on the guys with the elected POR patches. Let the nobodies have a chance to step up to the game. 2 Leaders, 4 boys, 3 canoes and it can happen..... They don't need to be the trained JLT who make the plans, how about the 4 boys in the NBP that need a campout for advancement? Can't they plan out a menu, make arrangements and knock out some quality time with each other around a campfire someplace? ANY PLACE? "I'm going to be dragging out my Dutch ovens on Saturday to do some baking. Anyone want in on it?" "Got my bike out, I'm thinking about heading up the bike trail for a day of camping. Any takers?" "I wonder if my canoe is still in good shape this spring. Need to get it wet, do some fishing." Drop these "bomb" opportunities into the laps of the various kids until you get a taker. Help them to develop the idea and take ownership. Then go and have a good time. GernBlansten, you are trained to run a troop, but are you able to train the boys to do it? That's the key. You have the best resources in the world to do this, you are just underestimating yourself, big time! I have only 3 rules when it comes to scouting. 1) Be safe 2) Look and act like a Scout 3) Have fun If a boy suggests something, anything, that doesn't break any of those rules, it's fair game for an activity. Stosh

Excuse me? How many of the merit badges end up with the final requirement talking about different careers? This process has been a part of Scouting from the beginning and hasn't changed, only our attitudes have. Scouts talk to me all the time about their future plans beyond HS. College, work, military, etc. have all been discussed. It's important for the boys to have adults other than their parents who have a genuine interest in the lives of these boys. Supporting leadership means that there has been an investment in the lives of these scouts and their future success is dependent upon how well we as scout leaders have provided them the tools of leadership, regardless of the future choices they may make. Maybe our silence on the issue means we as scouters aren't interested in the future of our scouts? Some of those old handbooks have some real treasures still written on those yellowed pages. Stosh

"If we don't do that, then we have to think about what the next challenge is. Maybe OA, maybe Venturing, maybe Sea Scouts. We shouldn't give up on the lad because he turns 14 and Eagle. Any way we do it, we should be there with the level of challenge the boy needs to continue to develop and grow." He's only 12 years old! He's been in scouts for only a couple of years, and you seem to be promoting the falacy that once one achieves Eagle, life as a Boy Scout is over. So many boys wait until the last minute, come in under the wire with their projects and age out before their parents have a chance to organize an Eagle Court of Honor. I never said I was planning on giving up when this boy reaches Eagle. As a matter of fact the agreement each boy makes when he voluntarily accepts membership in the Honor's Patrol is he stays in the program until he turns 18 years of age. It is the goal of this patrol to have all 8 members at Eagle rank at the same time, a goal the boys seem to think would be kinda nice. It is also expected that regardless of rank, the boy will hold a POR and be active with the boys and that doesn't mean they are just going to be a paper patrol of JASM's either. There's nothing in the "rules and regs" that says a Cub den can't have an Eagle DC is there? Maybe the NBP who has an Eagle PL will learn what real leadership is all about by watching an expert. Maybe if the troop QM was an Eagle, there really won't be a total mess in the troop trailer. Maybe if they were all Eagles that stuck around after their Eagle COH's one could have a truly boy-led troop. Everyone has to have a dream, don't they? Stosh

The newest, youngest scouts seem to be the most dedicated. >> They haven't figured out the situation as of yet. There's a lot of promise and potential being touted in the beginning. As they grow older, or perhaps its just because more is expected of them, they wander from the program and the responsibilities to run one. >> or they haven't been trained, encouraged, developed, to take on leadership because it really isn't being offered without strings attached. The adults call the shots and keep the boys from failing. Sure a few shine and take the ball, but the majority of them, IMHO, are there because mom and dad dropped them off. >> Mom and Dad are the leaders then. The kid is just following along the parental directives. Why is it that so many scouters can never seem to figure this out? They show token leadership when it comes to their project, but the true leadership they are supposed to be developing is still in the hands of those adults around them making sure they don't fail. We strive for boy led, but I'm afraid, if you don't have a couple of go-getters, you will become adult led just to survive. >> if the boys don't step up and take over, the adults will have to continue leading. Boys know this and as long as some adult's going to spoon feed them, they'll just follow along. We are lacking on the go-getter metric right now. >> They are there, but no one's going to step up and challenge the adult led troop... Perhaps its just my enthusiasm I had when I went through training is waining too. >> if what you are getting as a result of your efforts is not what you expect, then do something different. Anything different will produce different results. Perhaps its just getting to me that its so much work just to get the boys to take some initiative to plan a simple campout. >> getting the boys to do anything is an attempt to lead. Perhaps its watching them fail when they don't follow through with their commitments that takes the wind out of my sails. >> Sounds like you are the only one with the investment in the program, and you take it personal when the boys don't do as directed. Does this sound like boy-led? On the 4th anniversity as an adult leader, I'm feeling as though its all for naught. >> What are you doing to develop leadership? Anything? If it ain't working try something else. Work with the boys, they're the ones not getting leadership training. I'll keep showing up and driving my son to meetings and outings until he gets his Eagle, then leave it up to him to continue. >> Sounds like he's expected follow your directive until he has gotten the prize and then, and only then will you allow him to call the shots. And if you son doesn't want Eagle? If it's not as important to him as it is to you? I've got plenty other things to keep me busy. >> You very directly point out exactly the problems most troops face when dealing with the lack of leadership development in the boys. Surely everyone of them learns that if they do not take the reins and stand around long enough some adult will keep them from failing. After all they're the one's running the real program anyway. You haven't identified anything that a basic course in group dynamics and leadership development wouldn't rectify. GernBlansten: I hope you realize that I'm not trying to personally put you on the spot, but you give the classic response of so many scouters and reiterate the litany of defeat so many of them are frustrated with. I've been there and almost quit scouting a hundred times. When I got over my little pity party and got back with the boys, I began to realize my service to them was in working myself out of a job and allowing them the opportunity to grow up and be leaders. I can't make them grow up, or be leaders, or anything they don't want to do. I can only give them the opportunity and encourage them in their choices. Help them to own the program for themselves. :^) Stosh

"I think yeh take a good look at your program and how Advancement-driven it is. Seems like a boy doin' this is really pretty tightly focused on only one of eight methods, and I have to wonder what's happenin' with the rest. Is advancement your only form of recognition? On the other thread I merely responded to your question, but now with a continuation in the accusatory tone you began with, I'll continue the comments. Boy DOB: 08/12/94 Joined Troop: 02/27/05 (Yes he was only 10 1/2 years old but he was Arrow of Light, rules specifically state this is an acceptable procedure in the BSA) Scout: 04/12/05 Tenderfoot: 08/30/05 Second Class: 02/14/06 First Class: 04/04/06 Star: 09/26/06 (Yes that is 4 months as a First Class scout) Life: 04/24/07 (Yes that is 6 months as a Star scout) APL: 03/01/05 - 04/18/06 - NBP full year Scribe: 04/18/06 - 10/18/06 ASPL/APL: 10/18/06 - present - Honor's Patrol Den Chief: 10/18/06 - present So in light of the question.... Yes it is easily possible for this young man to have obtained the rank of Life at age 12 and still be 3 months shy of his 13th birthday. One might also note that the quest for advancement at the expense of others does not apply in this situation either. Except for his first month of getting organized into the NBP, he has held at least one POR throughout his scouting career. He has attended 2 weeks of summer camp and has gotten 6 merit badges from that experience and picked up another six at camporees, and other locally held merit badge opportunities. Since joining scouts has attendance at meetings is 71%, his attendance at other functions is 75% and his attendance at fundraising events is 100%. His "low" attenance percentage at the meetings is because of his commitment to the den chief responsibilities at the cub pack. He has permission to put his DC responsibilities higher than his attendance at a regular meeting. As far as I can tell, he's a straight-A student at school, is involved heavily in his church and occasionally will participate in school sports. He could not participate in this winter's Winter Survival program with the rest of his patrol because he was not old enough. He could not particpate as a volunteer in the Duck Unlimited Festival last year because he wasn't old enough, and yes this scout can tie the Turk's Head knot to make a woggle, he knows his knots as well as I do, and at the last campout his menu (he cooked for the whole weekend because he wanted to try out camp cooking for the patrol) consisted of sawmill bisquets and gravy for breakfast (all dutch oven cooked/baked), grilled cheese sandwiches and tomato soup for lunch, mashed potatoes with hamburger/onion gravy and brown sugar glazed carrots for supper. The next morning it was scrambled eggs, bacon and hashbrowns. At the fund raisers, he is one of just a few boys that will sign up for ALL shifts. So, in fact Beavah, his scout is one step ahead of you and your suggestions already. So now where do you expect him to go? And because I do not know who reads these posts, I cannot say whether or not the troop elected him to the OA last meeting or not. So there just might be some Walter Harris kind of kids out there that make Scouting a priority in their busy schedules and who challenge the adults to try and keep up with them. These people really do exist and there doesn't have to be an alterior motive, or questionable pratices on the part of troops, or inappropriate focuses, or are doing something wrong to produce such scouts. They just come around once in a while and if given the appropriate opportunities, just set the bar a little higher for the rest of the boys. And as far as doing something wrong all the time, there are also assumptions that maybe these scouts are the way they are because some troops are doing something right instead. Next weekend is our spring camporee. I'm in charge of knots for the campwide activities in the afternoon. I was told I could ask for volunteers to act as my staff to help me out. I'll have about 125 boys passing through my station throughout the afternoon. I turned to my SPL and the Honor Patrol and said, "Discuss it among yourselves, but I need staff to help with the station and if you would rather help me than participate in the activities let me know." About 45 minutes later the SPL came and said, "You have your staff for the afternoon" (This is a 15 year old) and went back to working with his patrol. Sometimes one can honestly assume that there are those out there that are doing it right. How many times have we burned out boys from the challenges of adulthood by never giving them the chance to "run with the big dogs" now and then. The older boys can't babysit the NBP every week and not get totally bored out of their skulls. Why is it that it is assumed in the negative and never in the positive? I know we're not the only ones out there doing it right and I think it's unfair to assume or suggest otherwise or to even leave an accusatory tone to one's comments on a forum. Stosh

"What do you do with a boy that has just completed his Life requirements, is waiting on his BOR and is only 12 years old?" Is it mathematically possible? Boy DOB: 08/12/94 Joined Troop: 02/27/05 (Yes he was only 10 1/2 years old but he was Arrow of Light, rules specifically state this is an acceptable procedure in the BSA) Scout: 04/12/05 Tenderfoot: 08/30/05 Second Class: 02/14/06 First Class: 04/04/06 Star: 09/26/06 (Yes that is 4 months as a First Class scout) Life: 04/24/07 (Yes that is 6 months as a Star scout) APL: 3/01/05 - 04/18/06 - NBP full year Scribe: 4/18/06 - 10/18/06 ASPL/APL: 10/18/06 - present - Honor's Patrol Den Chief: 10/18/06 - present So in light of the question.... Yes it is easily possible for this young man to have obtained the rank of Life at age 12 and still be 3 months shy of his 13th birthday. One might also note that the quest for advancement at the expense of others does not apply in this situation either. Except for his first month of getting organized into the NBP, he has held at least one POR throughout his scouting career.

What do you do with a boy that has just completed his Life requirements, is waiting on his BOR and is only 12 years old? And before anyone even thinks it, no one has been pushing this boy nor is he getting any special considerations. If anyone has ever read any of Percy K. Fitzhugh's books, just imagine Pee-Wee without the belt axe and fry pan. By the way, in this boy's spare time, he's a fully functional Den Chief working on the national award as well.