Stosh

Ok, please help me understand what would take a SM more than 5-10 minutes to do a conference? Surely the SM can figure out whether or not he's ready for a BOR in that amount of time. If the boy wants to talk more than that take the time if it's a critical issue he's facing otherwise, set up a time where you can sit and chat where one's advancement isn't involved in the situation. I agree that the extra hoops are inappropriate to the situation. I don't remember reading where SMC's have to be on any particular activity or location. I'm thinking I'm hearing a little power-trip going on with this SM. I'm with Dale on this. This is for the boys. If the SM can't accomodate the boys except on his terms, he needs to step aside and let someone who can do the job. Stosh

Get there early to get a spot in the best patrol. Don't worry about getting wet or getting stuck with all the dam work just show them your toothy grin! Go BEAVERS! Stosh

Ok, I'm totally lost here. What goes on in a SMC that takes such a drain on the SM? A SM should be able to in 5-10 minutes clarify whether or not the boy is ready for a BOR. Am I missing something here that indicates that this is as big a deal as what seems to be implied with the responses on this issue? God forbid a boy is having some problems at home and wants to visit with his SM on a personal issue and has to wait a month before he gets penciled in to a SM that seems to be too tired to take the time to visit. If the troop is boy-led shouldn't the SM have plenty of time to visit with the boys one-on-one? My apologies for being thick on this, but I'm really not seeing the whole picture here. Stosh

The solution is simple. If the rides are limited, first-come, first-served. Those that turn in their money, get the existing spots. Anyone showing up late either figures out their ride or stays home. 1) this gives everyone equal opportunity to go. 2) everyone gets their $$ in early 3) if there's a shortage of seats, there is plenty of lead-time to seek out others to drive. If no one steps up, then those without rides stay home. 4) everyone knows what's going on at any given time. The problem will persist maybe once or twice once this policy gets into place, but until people are convinced you're serious, they'll keep pushing the envelop. Spell out the limits of what can be done and live with them. I've had to "leave behind" a few kids over the years, but you'd be surprised how many of their parents got them there anyway. They weren't happy about it, but the kids were there. Stosh

When I was an ASM, I went back to Webelos II to fulfill my Wood Badge ticket and help a group of boys make the transition. I had so much fun working with the boys I did it for a second year and then stayed on a a Webelos leader trainer for several years afterwards. It truly is the best years to be working with boys. briantshore's got a really good suggestion about talking with your Troop. At the same time get a Den Chief too, when they cross over that DC became TG and continued helping with the transition. When one of my Webelos finally earned his Eagle, at the reception afterwards he said except for his Dad, I had been with him in life more than anyone else and he appreciated it. I had 4 Eagles out of the two groups I helped make the cross-over to Boy Scouts. Stosh

If SM and ASM's can be "disqualified" on physical fitness issues, why not make sure they are psychologically tested every year to make sure they are still emotionally qualified and be academically tested to make sure they don't forget the information necessary to function from one year to the next. After all we don't want any psychotic, feeble, stupid old men and women being SM or ASM's in our boy's troops. Stosh

Nay my young inquisitor. We hail from the land of RedGreen Socks where young knaves of the land gather to master the skills of woodland and mountains. The lads you aforeto mention hail from the far off mystical land of Hollywood.

Hmmm, let me think. We have shotgun merit badge, we have rifle merit badge, we have shooting sports merit badge, we provide rifle ranges and skeet areas for the scouts on numerous occasions and so why would wearing a scout uniform to a gun show be a problem? If one were to be shopping at the sporting goods store looking at tents and sleeping bags, would one find it necessary to remove the uniform before heading into the hunting area? I would refrain from consuming alcohol while in uniform and quite possibly the use of tobacco. On the other hand if you were to indulge in large quantities of alcohol and then go the gun show and handle reload equipment and muzzleloading supplies while smoking, it could be a problem. Stosh

Tis the truth of which thee speaks, but alas, proper training of the young knave shall squelch the embolden ideas of the lad to pursue such foolishness upon himself. The dagger within his pouch requireth much instruction to be of great use, the staff is of no difference. Else the poor lad shall become but dragon bait at the hands of his lord and master Sir Scoutmaster.

Methinks thy staff be a bit short of an important piece. Upon the top resteth a 1 to 2 inch hook. It bespeaks of many a purpose including reaching kindling from high in the tree, hanging rather than leaning, and the rescue of objects that have fallen upon the earth wherewith retrieval with heavy load would presumed to be impossible. Stosh

My first question would be: what leadership did he demonstrate? Doing the project by oneself demonstrates absolutely no leadership. Gotta have at least one other follower there. My second question would be: why are you worried about the minimum? Somehow I get the "feeling" that this project is being done just to get by and not because it's of value to the boy or any challenge to his leadership skills. What needs to be done is more of limiting the boy to the maximum rather than pushing for the minimum. I had one boy I told he had to stop what he had done and write it up. In fact he did more than twice what I would have considered a very substantial project. The last boy I discussed a project with asked me if he could do more than what he had originally designed in his write-up. We compromised, he will write-up his project and finish it out and then go back with the troops help and do the extra work that came up after the original project was designed. I guess I would rather counsel a boy to focus his project down to a reasonable, workable project rather than trying to get the boy to beef it up to get buy. To give one an idea of what projects our Eagles have taken on, 3 park picnic pavilions, a wooden lookout observatory, veteran grave identification and replacement, painting storm sewer warnings. building picnic tables for park placement, benches along walking trails, training equipment in a city park, re-construction of hiking trails in a state park, and lead/steel shot survey in a heavily used area of a lake for the DNR. I don't think any of the boys ever worked on the projects unless they could get a crew of more than 5-6 boys to make the time worthwhile. Stosh

On the other hand, one of our patrols has chosen to have a 6' closet rod staff as part of their "uniform". It is their walking stick, their stretcher rod, their patrol flag staff, etc. When they are walking on ice, they use it to test the ice and if they go through, the hook on the end can hook another and that gives a 12' reach for rescue. It can be used with a poncho for a shelter, pick up things they drop while wearing a heavy pack. I use it to measure the height and distance issues. Their neckerchief tied on makes a legitimate signal flag. On page 366 "Handbook for Boys", the 1976 reprint of the original, it shows 12 different uses and suggests in print another 11. On page 365 it states: "Many boys, upon taking up the Scout Movement, are dubious about the value of the scout staff and many friends of the movement ask "Why does a boy scout carry a staff?" "Experience has proven it to be one of the most helpful articles of equipment. In order to show this we are reproducing, through the courtesy of Lieut-Gen. Sir Robert S. S.Baden-Powell, illustrations from printed matter used by the English boy scouts. These illustrations how a number of different ways in which the staff will prove a handy and valuable article; in fact, essential to the Scout outfit." We have "outlawed" belt axes, sheath knives, staffs, and many other useful items that were once essential to the scouting movement. Pocket knives, rifles, shotguns and archery equipment may be next. Maybe we ought to teach the boys the usefulness of these items rather than merely taking them away or letting them simply play with them on their own. Surely we don't allow them to go off and play with their pocket knives, why would the staff be any different? Stosh

It's also easy to misinterpret "darts" when they don't exist as well. I usually find that in the anonymous world of forum posts and e-mail that when one is looking for the worst they usually find it and vise versa. As a matter of fact, I did not intend to trivialize your response, as a matter of fact, I have the safety and well-being of many other scouts who do in fact count as important as one scout, I probably would have strongly suggested he find another troop where he could start over with a clean slate if he wished, but would not be welcomed back to the current troop. There comes a time when each leader must know their limitations and if your efforts cannot help this scout come around, maybe another scouter can get through to this boy. It would be a disservice to the youth at that point to try and keep him in your own troop. In no way does this trivialize your efforts, but a recognition is necessary to know that we all have certain skills and talents that don't always work for every boy. Stosh

My apologies if you find my comments offensive, but I don't need to walk anywhere in your shoes. We have had scouts that had to quit scouting because they ended up in jail. We have had a scout stealing from our CO's soda purchase system, blue dye and all. I have had to disarm kids wielding clubs and sheath knives. I'm sure there are plenty of other SM's out there that could top my list of challenges, but that doesn't mean we settle with just the best of the best and let the rest go. Any boy that walks into the trooop gets the same opportunities as anyone else. Some are easy to work with, others will try your patience to the nth degree, but you do your best and you never give up. If you find that philosophy offensive, sorry, but that's my opinion, you are entitled to yours. Stosh

I'm with Local1400 on this one. It doesn't quite make sense to remove the boy who needs it most from the scouting program. But then it's always easier to "make it go away" than to deal with the challenge it imposes on the troop. Someday I'm going to have a troop of nothing but the cream of the crop. Until then I am "saddled" with the ADD/ADHD, diabetic, short-fused, home-sick, sleep-walker, trouble-maker, mean spiritied, etc. boys. While it doesn't make my job easy, it does make it challenging. Stosh

Yeah, sure, I'm biased, but for everyone (and I mean everyone) that shows up at my door, or who stops me at the entrance of a store, or who's standing along side the road with a car wash sign... IF they are in uniform (cub, boy, girl, venture, etc...) they will get a sale. I get so tired of buying GS cookies from my co-workers that last year I called up the GS office and told them that any girl who showed up in uniform at my door would get a sale. Well, I'm still waiting. As far as my wearing of the uniform? I think there were bets going on with the boys this spring when we were all taking our annual swim test (we were going to a camp that didn't offer the test), as to whether or not I was going to wear my uniform for the test or not. Occasionally I have received a free meal at a fast food restaurant for bringing in the boys (same for any bus driver), but I have never received any positive or negative comments in public as to wearing of my uniform. I guess this is ok because then I don't have to deal with these issues other people harbor. Stosh

I like the homemade square ones, they are full and bulky, look nice and can't be worn under the collar. I really don't like the under-the-collar look because it covers most of the neckerchief. If one is going to wear one, make sure it's seen. I like the dark colors too, green, black, blue, etc. I also find the writing on most to be distracting. Just plain, or a simple logo is all it needs. Stosh

If you have a boy in the troop that is the troop quartermaster and you have to ask this question, the obviously the boy isn't fulfilling his POR respsonsibilities. Technically the sponsoring organization "owns" the equipment. If your troop should happen to become inactive, the SO gets all the equipment. Stewardship of the equipment is the troop's. But a functional QM should be sufficient to make sure the equipment is monitored, inventoried and taken care of. If not, you need a new QM. If the SM is running around doing the QM job, then there's something seriously wrong with the set-up of the troop.

Easy solution to the problem. Find the material you like and have someone make them. They can be square and all one has to do is roll the edges and stitch down. Voila, a neckerchief. We use the Meyer's flag in red on white for the neckerchief of our honor's patrol. As far as being "official", being "optional" they can be anything and still be "official". It's not like the Official Boy Scout Uniform Shirt, that can only be bought from BSA and comes with BS buttons. A neckerchief can be anything you vote it to be. With iron-on computer graphics readily available, one shouldn't have any problem coming up with a nice neckerchief for the troop. For those who are domestically challenged: fold over the edge of the material 1/8" and iron down. Do it again for a second roll. Stitch it down like you were sewing on a patch. Otherwise run it through a sewing machine on a straight stitch. It'll probably take you longer to create the neckerchief than it would be to make it. Stosh

Six miles east of Yellowstone's east entrance is Central Wyoming's BSA Camp Buffalo Bill. A rustic but nice Boy Scout Camp. We attended this year from 1,000 miles away. It was a nice week, had a good time and spent 2 days in Yellowstone following for the touristy thing. We did not stay in Yellowstone at all. We left Camp Buffalo Bill on Saturday morning after a week at camp, swung through the park along lower loop and stayed in a private campground in West Yellowstone. Then on Sunday went through the park in the upper loop. This trip included many side trips, a week at a rustic (bring your own tents) and neat camp (the grizzly bear went through the week before, all we got was a black bear walking through) We also took in a quick tour and camping in Black Hills, Devil's tower, Custer's Battlefield, Cody Museum, Cody Rodeo, just to name a few. Any scoutmaster who thinks such a trip isn't scouting enough just isn't paying attention. Our boys will be talking about this summer camp experience for years. Somehow from your post, I get the feeling there's something else going on that isn't evident on the surface. A trip like this would make any troop envious. Stosh

Obviously there are the traditional answers to this whole thing about neckerchiefs and first aid, etc. However for identity purposes, I have a story: I was traveling in Canada last summer and while in a gift shop in Banff, I noticed a number of high school/college aged boys and girls all wearing civilian clothing but also an unmarked yellow neckerchief. I asked one of them if they were scouts and yep they were. Maybe this proves that the scout neckerchief is in fact the most important part of the uniform. How many other people/groups do you know of that wear a neckerchief? If scouts can be identified by this one item of clothing, maybe it ought to be something that's part of the uniform and not something that can be voted out. Just a thought. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I guess I wouldn't telemarket scouts in the first place. If one is serious about starting a den, then do it seriously. It's easy to hang up the phone, but a lot more difficult to shut the door on a uniformed cub scout standing on the porch telling your kid how much fun he's had in cub scouts. Just a suggestion. There can't be that many kids in the grade that each cub scout could visit with 3-5 prospects one evening. Stosh

If the St. Croix is a problem, there are other rivers in the area with plenty of water and plenty of float for inexperienced canoeists. There are some nice challenging whitewater for the more experienced boys, too. The Brule is spring fed and always within an inch or two of normal even during a drought. Flambeau is dam controled and has nice rapids. Backwaters of the Mississippi are good for an easy float and the Chippewa is a nice easy float as well. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to adjust your location than reschedule?

A combination of TroopMaster software, ASM Advancement Chair, SM and the boy's record, we have a pretty good idea who's ready for BOR. If the system allows for a boy's record to be questioned at a BOR it's the system that needs to be fixed. If there's a question as to Scout Spirit between SM and BOR, then there's something wrong with the communication between these two. If there's a problem with any of this, it needs to be addressed and corrected by the Troop Committee. And when all is said and done, the only one that ends up on the short end of the adult run system "stick" is the boy, and how often is it the boy's fault? In all my years of scouting I have yet to find the scout that is trying to sneak something past the "powers to be" and get an advancement he's not entitled to. I have had them question certain requirements, but they have been resolved long before they reach any SM conference or BOR situations. Stosh

Vickie, I don't think we are disagreeing on the fine points, but the basic understanding of the purpose of fundamentally what the BOR is all about. There are those who think the flow of authority runs from top down like a military or business organization. Sure, the PLC is "boy-led", but the mandates are still from the top down. The BOR is evidence of this dynamic. Adults passing judgment as if the boy's responsibility and/or authority is able to be challenged. However, there are those like myself who think this authority is reversed. The patrol is the highest authority and the PLC, SM, Committee, BOR, etc, are all there to give guidance and support. And guidance/advice is not the same as mandates, and when you have a group that can override the integrity and decisions of the patrols and/or boys, then you undermine the authority of the patrol method. If the BOR is not designed and mandated to support, guide, and assist the patrol and it's membership, then it is part of a adult-led troop and patrol and patrol leadership is a sham. I think that's why these two "requirements" for advancement are appropriatedly named Board of REVIEW and Scoutmaster's CONFERENCE. Neither word reflects authority, decision-making, or directing of anything. Adults who add these dynamics to the process are in fact overstepping their authority, IMO of course. For those who believe that gives too much authority and leadership to the boys, then one has to step back and ask themselves, isn't that what we're all about in the first place? Stosh