Stosh

I guess I'm from a different planet on this one. I have had training all the way from Cub Basics through Crew Advisor, along with WB and Univ/Scouting Masters Degree. Simply put, if a person even sits through a training session, no matter how poorly done, they will often pick up something of value they could use later. If they are not in any class, then there is zero chance that any such learning will happen. I'll take a poorly trained leader over an untrained leader any day. If you stop and think about it for a minute, isn't that what we're expecting our youth to do? How can we say we require it for our youth and not our leaders who will be teaching them. I can't see how the math is going to add up on this one. Poorly trained teachers, teaching adults with a poorly designed program, who then go out and create terrifice scout troops! Yeah, right. If your training programs are not working, fix them. Stosh

In terms of leadership, if the boy is capable of functioning at a position he ought to be given the chance. Too often we have high ranking, active scouts that can't do the job, but other boys wishing they had the opportunity to try. My vote goes with the boy who's willing to try, learn and work at it. I don't think rank many times is indicative of their heart as much as it is their mind. They may know what to do, but can or are they willing to do it? Big difference. Stosh

I have to agree with meamemg. No where does it say one has to be AOL in order to cross over. They are crossing over from Cubs to Scouts. If the boys is a registered Cub and is doing a $1 transfer over to Scouts, he's entitled to a cross over ceremony. Maybe we as adults convey too much importance on AOL that we forget what the Cubbing program is all about, just like we convey the importance that Eagle is the end-all for Boy Scouting. If any negative dynamic is involved in the transition program between Webelos and Scouting it may turn the boy off from continuing his scouting career. This transition is difficult enough without adults doing a dump job of "tough love" on a kid. I would think that scout troops would be doing back bends and hand stands to get these kids to join up with their troop. If not, that Cub needs to find a different troop. "A Scout is ... Helpful, Friendly, Kind, ..." How "big" and how "old" does the little old lady have to be before a scout helping her across the street gets credit for his good turn for the day? People are more important than rules. Stosh

As a BSA SM and a Venturing ADV, I too have more important things I could be doing, but not having grown up, being irresposible, and prefer to have fun before I have to go to a nursing home, I'm glad I never grew up too much so as to forget that being a kid and being with kids keeps one from thinking that what they do is more important than what they are. Long live Peter Pan!! Stosh

As a former EMT/ERT I don't go to as elaborate levels as have been described by some of these posts. However, I do spontaneous training at different times in different settings. While on a hike around the local camp with our new Webelos II boys who were visiting our troop, I had one of the Webelos boys "break" his ankle. I promised him a free ride back to camp if he did a good job. He sat down on the trail and I was surprised the rest of the hikers didn't notice. (I picked the last scout in the line) Of course it took a while, but his buddy finally spoke up that there was someone missing. After locating him, sent two runners back to camp to initiate further help, splinting his ankle, making a stretcher, they carried him back to camp. My boys have come to expect an "emergency" at any time at any place. Stosh

"Beyond First Class, rank advancement requires the earning of Merit Badges and PORs. Hopefully the boys aren't signing off on MB requirements, so adults play a large part in advancement after FC." Hmmm, is that because the adults are running the show or supporting the boys? I never said adults don't support a boy-led, patrol-method program, I just said they shouldn't run it. "Leading" a COH or "leading" anything is not what I call a good skill an adult scouter should have. "For PORs, the SM or ASMs should be conducting Troop-level Leader training." Sounds like good supporting, but not a directing/leading role. "For each rank, a SM Conference and BOR is required, involving the SM and other adults." Adult involvement is totally appropriate , but still not a directing/leading role. "Service Projects for advancement require SM approval. So, nearly every requirement for advancement from Star through Eagle requires adult involvement." Involvement yes, but not directing/leading. How much involvement does an orchestra conductor have with the actual sound produced by a concert? How much involvement does a coach have when he/she never plays in any games? "The Patrol Method is one of 8 methods. Advancement, Adult Association, Personal Growth, Leadership Development all require adult leadership and involvement." No, they only require adult involvement. They all require boy leadership to be successful. One can support all those methods with adult support, instruction and involvement but leave the leadership up to the boys. "Many ways to skin a cat, as they say. The unanimous opinion of my mentors is COHs are ceremonies for the boys, conducted by the adults, as described by the BSA. If a troop has the boys run their COHs and everyone is happy, I don't see that as a problem. Saying the SM and other adults don't play a role in the success and advancement of a Scout is a bit much, however." Kinda reminds me of the orchestra conductor. Makes no contribution to the music of the orchestra, but is always the first to take a bow. If a PL is developing strong leadership as he works with his boys, develops teamwork, inspires and directs the boys, he is a functional PL. If the boys are successful the PL will be seen as successful as well. If everything that boy does is first approved by an adult, then by the SPL etc. and everyone else, then that boy only follows directions and never leads. For every decision an adult makes, he/she takes away a leadership decision opportunity for the boys. Sorry, I stand by my opinion. There can never be too much boy-led, but I can cite you thousands of examples of adult-led in today's programs. For whom are we instilling leadership qualities? Every SM and adult leader in a troop should be systematially working themselves out of a job. If not, then their boys are not getting all the opportunity to lead they could be having. If boys are having difficulty doing their Eagle projects or even holding their troop program together it's not because they are strong leaders, it's because they haven't had the opportunity to learn what leaders do. Should the adults instruct? Yep! Should the adults mentor? Yep! Should the adults inspire? Yep! Should the adults support? Yep! Should the adults give direction? Nope! Should the adults make decisions? Nope! Like the old adage states: "If you aren't part of the solution, you must be part of the problem." The same holds true for our boys, "If they aren't leading, then they must be following." FOLLOW ME BOYS may have been a classic Hollywood movie about scouting, but it makes a terrible slogan to be put up on any scouter's wall. Stosh

I must caution anyone using the plastic knives for training. First of all they do not fold up and therefore cannot be passed from one scout to another. It is imperative to teach safety and the only way one passes a knife from one to another is with the blade folded into the handle which plastic knives cannot do. As a BS leader, I train all my boys the proper safety and the only way a fixed blade knife can be passed from one person to another is by the first person laying the knife down on a secure surface and the other person then picks it up. In an attempt to be safe (plastic knives and soap) don't forget the basic rules of true safety (don't pass fixed blade knives from one person to another). Stosh

I do not have an official red scout jacket, but I do own a red Pendleton jacket that 10' away you can't tell the difference. It does have two extra pockets on the front outside which is handy. I do not put any patches or pins on it but everyone assumes it's BSA. I like the wool over the polar fleece, and don't have any problems with wearing wool. This is fortunate because I like the warmth of wool the best. With a red turtle-neck and short sleeves or just a long sleeve uniform, I'm okay in the winter. If it's really cold I wear my Crew's great coat which is 3 more layers of wool and do very well at keeping warm in most situations. When it dips to 0 or below, I switch over to my down parka and add wool longjohns. Can anyone tell I really like wool? Stosh

I view COH's as a patrol-method opportunity. If there are 4 boys each from a different patrol, then each one could in fact write and emcee their patrol's part of the COH. If two boys are from the same patrol, THEY can decide who does the COH and who does the next campfire, etc. If the troop is adult-led then with the permission of the SM and other adults he can write/emcee the COH. If the troop is boy-led, troop-method, then with the permission of the SPL and PLC he can write/emcee the COH. If the troop is boy-led, patrol-method, the obvious choice would be working with his PL. Stosh

I guess I do it a little different. I was once the advance ASM for an adult led program. SM ran the show. The boys were occasionally asked to light candles or read something to have some scout participation. However, now that I'm SM of a different troop, it is patrol-method, boy-led at every opportunty I can think of. The PL's run the COH. They make the presentation to the boys of their patrol that are receiving recognition. There is no oversight on the part of the boys forgetting anyone because each PL has worked hard at assisting the boy with his requirements. If a PL cannot make the COH, the APL does the presentation. As a master of ceremony, the SPL introduces and coordinates the flow of the COH for the PL's to invite them up at their proper time and/or make comments to the parents about the troop as a whole. All comments to the parents about the boy and his patrol are made by the PL. The PL's are independent enough to provide their part of the COH to honor their members in the way they wish to do so. The Advancement ASM and SM provide the logistics of records with the council, award purchases, get proper signatures on the cards, bundle up the awards by patrol,etc. in support of each PL. This process involves all the leadership of the troop playing their own little part which does not require a big coordinating effort by anyone. While this process may not be "proper" according to BSA literature, there seems to me to be too much emphasis on the adults in BSA literature when the core value being promoted is boy-led, patrol-method to scouting. I find that the image being projected by patrol-method process does in fact show the efforts of the boys over the limelight over the adults and "how well they have progressed the boys" since the last COH. The boy-led, patrol-method approach gives the impression that the boys, working as a team, have progressed as a whole and no one else stands up and takes the limelight during it's public recognition program. Each photo op for the evening should have the boy and his PL making the presentation with the parents at hand to witness. This encapsulates the whole ideal of boy-led, patrol-method. The boy advances, recognized by his PL who has walked/worked with him every step of the way to assist him, and his parents, the boy's #1 supporters. And what part did the SPL and SM play in that? Not much if my understanding of boy-led, patrol-method is correct and being used. Stosh

I'd like to take a little different tack on eolesen's comment. For some of the troops that have NO inclination towards the 12th point of the Scout Law, maybe a CA would be good to do the opening/closing prayers along with meal grace as nothing more than a valid example of one who's responsibility it is to have such 12th Law dynamics in the troop. If there is no one to remind everyone to take off their hats, stand up and pray the Philmont Grace, then that whole point of the Scout Law is basically being ignored. Lead by example and a good CA will do just that. This position doesn't need to be some elaborate Sunday AM worship specialist, but maybe just gather everyone up, read a psalm, have a short prayer and be done. But at least there is someone responsibile for remembering the 12th point of Law. Stosh

KISS :^) The more elaborate one makes the issue the more complicated the expectations seem to demand. Can't these boys "cross over" from one side of the room to the other without crossing some bridge? Can a boy go "up a rank" without having to climb some step kind of podium? The really important issues is to to something that makes these two boys feel special. Have the boy with his parents stand on one side of the room. Dad/Mom takes off the necker/loops and he prepares to walk away. If there was a Den Chief, he should be there to escort the boy across the room/bridge or whatever. His name is then announced and his new SPL puts his new necker on and welcomes him, the ASP puts on the loops and welcomes him, then the SM welcomes him with the handshake and introduces him to all the adult leaders. Then he is individually introduced to everyone in the troop by the TG. He has had a DC, SPL, ASPL, SM and TG all taking a personal interest in the boy to make sure he has had a lot of contact with the new troop. Once the process is complete. Stop and pause! Then bring the next boy over so that there is no one's attention diverted on something other than the next boy coming over. If he has a new PL and patrol to join rather than a NSP, this group should be the first contact he has after the adult leadership and the PL should walk with him as the TG makes further introductions. Ceremony? Don't really need anything formal, just a heartfelt welcome is all that is really necessary.

Custom neckerchiefs of whatever size are easy to make. I knocked out 42 of them in an afternoon. Nice sized ones are 45". Buy the bolt 45" wide, cut ever 45" (45" square) Then cut diagonal both ways makes 4 scarves. roll the hem and iron down. Straight stitch and clip extra fabric on the ends. Get Iron-on paper and print from computer whatever logo you want and iron on. Working together 2-3 people could knock out 100 neckerchiefs on a single Saturday. There's no excuse for not having exactly what you what in a neckerchief. When you're done with the Troop neckerchief, have the patrols design their own as well. I have had boys bring two neckerchiefs to an event because some of the time they are functioning as a troop and at other times they are functioning and identifying as a patrol. That dynamic DOES promote personal responsibility. Stosh

The issue for me lies in the dynamics of functionality and expectation. There is no such thing as a light and heavy duty POR. It is all important and if the person fulfilling the expectation is not functional they don't get credit. If the APL can't step up to PL when needed he is not functional and will not get credit. The TG that doesn't guide is not functional. A historian that doesn't record pictures, document events, journal, etc. is not functioning and will not get credit. Do the job, get the credit. None of the POR's are light duty if taken seriously. The expectation in some troops may be non-existant and thus would be considered relatively unimportant. If that be the case, expect the functionality from others and give them no credit. i.e. SPL always leads grace at meals, etc. In a small troop that may be important but if you have 4-5 patrols, a functioning QM is manditory, same for the TG. Stosh

We have a Sergeant, a Corporal and a Company Clerk. If push came to shove we would call them President, VP and Sec/Treas. Civil War era naming configuration. It may be recalled that the Assistant Patrol Leaders of today were once referred to as corporals. BP used military naming conventions until they were later changed to be more PC/non-military of today. Stosh

If NOBODY wears neckerchiefs anymore, then scouts are no different than anybody else. If only scouts still wear neckerchiefs then they are unique. I was in Canada a couple of years back and while in a gift-shop I noticed a number of young people (men and women) all wearing yellow neckerchiefs with no logo on them. I asked them if they were scouts and they said yes. Just the neckerchief, both men and women, even with no uniform and no scout logo or identification at all, it still indicated scouts. It may be the last indicator that makes Scouting visibly unique.

Recently I took over a troop that was basically falling apart. I observed for a couple of months to see if I could find what the problem might have been. What I found out was that regardless of their rank, these boys could not function at the level of their rank. They had "fulfilled" the requirements by doing it once and then they got the rank. They never learned the skill. Life scouts that couldn't tie basic hitch knots. Sitting in a room couldn't tell you what direction 270 degrees was and couldn't cook anything other than hobo dinners. Of course they ran their own program, but accomplished nothing. Needless to say, in order for these boys to be able to teach these skills to the new boys coming in, they are now going back and relearning all these "requirements" of knowledge and skill so they can teach it to others. If this flies in the face of no more or no less than the requirement, then I'm at fault, but I do have to admit that things are now starting to get done by the boys as they should. If one expects great things from these boys, they get it. If they don't they get that too. Stosh

In our troop I guess we don't use the terminology of "Class A" or "Class B". It's either you're in uniform or you're not. There are certain things one must be in uniform and other times it's not necessary. When traveling it is in uniform, at all meals, at formal ceremonies, for flags, and any other occasion where looking like a scout is important. If a scout does not show up in uniform for a meeting he is not counted as in attendance. He cannot have a BOR or receive awards without being in uniform. This seems a little harsh, but every boy knows the routine, and if they wish to participate those are the expectations. If they choose not to fulfill their responsibility to the group, then they have the option to make choices based on what they want at the time. If I don't show up for work properly dressed according to my company's dress code, I will be sent home until I decide to comply. I don't see why scout policies shouldn't reflect the real world. They can't wear just anything at school either, so they are familiar with the routine and consequences of not following along. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I have found that a certain amount of respect goes a long way when dealing with youth. If you expect problems, you usually get it. If you don't expect it, trust the kids, and let them have their choices, you usually don't have too many problems. However, with that being said, there are times when a certain amount of standing toe-to-toe as an equal usually works as well. I find that eye-to-eye contact with a quiet comment such as: "The choice is yours, but if you do that, it may be the last thing you ever do as a scout in this troop." I have only a few rules that must be adhered to and they are spelled out clearly in the beginning of every scout's career with the troop. When minor infractions of those rules occur, comments such as: "That probably wasn't one of the better choices you could have made." or "Next time do you think you'd choose a different option?" often times work well. The focus and responsibility always remains on the scout and the choices he/she makes or doesn't make. Peer-to-peer evaluations of certain circumstances often times help curtail future problems if it is the consensus of the scouts themselves that direct problem solving in a more constructive manner than flying off the handle or threats to other scouts. I just mark it all up to leadership development. Discipline just seems to fall into place behind it and isn't often a problem. Stosh

Somehow I get the vague feeling that when adults cook as "patrol" they are doing less "lead by example" as they are "this is the way to do it." I think the "lead by example" thread is not exactly valid. I find that my coaching the patrols individually, they are more apt to take ownership and retain learning in the cooking process than trying to watch the adults while they struggle through their own problems. "If you were to watch and learn from the adults you won't have as many problems, they have all the answers." Nope, sorry, I still have problems with that approach/excuse for not dealing more directly with the patrols and the processes they are trying to establish for themselves. Stosh

The award may be given to either a boy or an adult, but the criteria for selection is totally subjective. This means that it is awarded only when someone feels it is appropriate regardless of any standards. After 30 years of scouting, saving many lives as a volunteer and by-stander to incidents, the issue has never been considered. From my view point (i.e. standing on both sides of the fence): Those most deserving of the award are most often not considered.

Having fun? Adventure? Outdoors? My church group does all of these plus those things that make a church group. What does scouting do besides these? LEADERSHIP DEVELOPMENT Why do you think the military notices whether or not a person was in scouts, especially if they have reached the rank of Eagle? Because he can camp? Canoe? make a fire? I don't think so. Adult led troops have a ton of fun, go on great trips, do all kinds of adventures. Church group, Boys & Girls clubs do the same thing, the YMCA/YWCA do it too as well as the local schools. All these are basically adult lead organizations and the kids go along for the ride and have fun and adventure. If left alone the scouts would be going to theme parks, arcades, and a dozen other things that are nothing more than repeats of what others are doing. If scouting is going to stand out and be different, they are going to have to emphasize the leadership aspects of the program and show that these scouts are different than the run-of-the-mill, just like everyone else, kind of programs. Having fun is part of the process, not the goal. Going on great trips is a means and a method, not a goal. Unless Scouting emphasizes that which it does best, it will be just like all the rest. Stosh

With the right motivation, the boys can and do stand at attention for far longer than what many might want to give them credit for. I don't think many people expect much from kids. When we raise the bar and expect better, often times we get it. Never underestimate what the scouts can do.

If the beret is dead, so should the campaign hat. After all it is definitely a military hat, something which the scouting movement is trying to play down. "We are not a military organization, but all our leaders wear military hats and military colored uniforms. Hmmm... Kinda makes one wonder what kind of lead by example dynamic we are providing our youth. And then there's the non-military modified salute? and the standing at attention for flag ceremonies, and all the other "we're not a military organization" types of things we do to style ourselves after the military. Can't wear cammo pants, but you can wear a "drill sergeant's" hat. Stosh

While it is not appropriate to require it, I still do it anyway. It is a reasonable expectation that the scouts learning the skills for advancement will someday have to be able to teach them to the younger scouts, I have all my scouts teach someone to get credit for the requirement. This means the scout can actually function in the skill. "Teach me the knot." vs. "Show me you can tie the knot." Along with the requirement, the skills of leadership must be included. This is easy enough to do if all your First Class scouts can teach any and all of the requirements at any given time in their scouting career. If the patrol is not boy-led, who's doing the teaching? If it's boy-led, is it not safe to assume that the boys do the teaching?