Stosh

Turning off the electricity is not really a natural disaster and would produce nothing more than an inconvenience as it has in various parts of the country on a routine basis. My thoughts on a natural disaster would involve a tornado hit, major earthquake, hurricane, wildfire, blizzard, etc. where one's life would be disrupted by more than loss of electricity. Finding water, food and shelter in that case, moving to safer ground, emergency medical assistance, selection of survival equipment, etc. would play a more important part than simply turning off the electricity and sitting in the house and play cards by candlelight. In the upper midwest where ice storms occur all the time, loss of electricity is just an annoyance. If this is an Emergency Preparedness exercise, at least make it a real emergency. My solution? It's 10 degrees today. Fill every container in the house with water and store in kitchen area. Turn off the water, open all the faucets especially those in the basement to drain the pipes. Pour all your alcohol down your drains to keep your traps from freezing, flush the toilets to empty all the water reserves, move everyone into the kitchen and start the gas range to heat it. Find a couple of candles, and break out the cards. Realistically, a family in this situation would still be able to eat out of the refrigerator and keep food cool by putting it in the dining room. Having a gas furnace, I would figure out how to manually operate the stupid thing and then I wouldn't have to worry about the frozen pipes. All in all, about the only thing one would actually miss would be the lights, TV and computer. That "natural disaster" I could do by unplugging the TV and computer and put tape over the light switches. No big deal, I haven't done that for a couple of years now and that might just be fun. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

If it's a natural "disaster" why would assume there would be a house to trip the breaker on? Take what would be needed and walk away with what they could carry. When the Y2K thing ran around, everyone was in a major panic. They wanted the gas generators, stockpiled food, etc. When they asked me what I was going to do, I said when the power grid went down, I would take my supper out of the freezer (not a problem for winter in Wisconsin), go out in the back yard, start a fire and make supper, toss a couple of blankets on the bed, and turn in for the night. Have the families travel to a set point, on foot, and establish a refugee camp with what they could carry. Wagons, travois, whatever they wanted to tote the stuff, but nothing but human power to get it there. It would be very interesting to take inventory of each family to see what they thought was important and what was not. Stosh

Sometimes reliving the past isn't such a bad exercise for the boys. My Venturing crew does use wool blankets and occasionally a canvas tent. They cook in a canteen half and live the life of a soldier of the 1860's. Sometimes in the interest of developing program that presses a boy into challenges that wouldn't come his way naturally, they realize knowledge and strength that can't be picked up elsewhere. They march miles in terrible leather shoes and wear wool in the middle of summer. They carry everything they need for the whole weekend or go without. Do they do it to gain any sort of expertise or do they do it because they know very few people ever get the chance to experience these events? Dan Beard talked about putting up log cabins, my boys have done it, in the rain! They still keep coming back and they bring their friends. Seasoned veterans of the hobby have indicated to me that if the lead boy of my crew were to take over as commissioned officer of the company, they wouldn't have a problem falling in under his command. That's about the highest compliment anyone could give another in the hobby. These are serious, recognized accomplishments in a world very foreign and strange to these boys when they first come into the hobby, but they have stepped up and learned modern lessons from historical contexts that will enable these boys to do exceptional things. Why? Because they are already doing them. Next time you cook in your Dutch oven, remmber that piece of hardware was around for a long time before Scouting came along. Why would anyone ever think to use such archain cookware when we have propane stoves and teflon frypans? Just because we have newer technology doesn't mean it automatically surpasses the old standby's. Stosh

Never. Plain and simple. I cannot think of any instance where this would be even remotely acceptable. I would include that to mean to use profanity at anyone, not just a scout. Stosh

We use our Yahoo Group for communication mostly between parents and kids. The boys can't post, only leaders. Boy and parents can keep up-to-date on what's happening but it isn't a chatroom for the boys. They have cell phones, text messaging, IM, and e-mail, they don't need the group for chatting. If they want to communicate with another boy in the troop, they can go to the membership area of the group, click on the boy and it sets up an e-mail. Phone numbers, etc. are also stored in a secure area so they can talk directly to any scout, leader, or parent with this information. Stosh

Is the speedway inside the Council? Our summer camp was requiring local tour permits for all activities in the camp whether parents dropped the kids off or we took them in leader vehicles. The camp was within our council and for our troop, most of the boys' parents drove further to the troop meeting than they did to summer campsite. Still the camp required it. Strangely enough, the Council did not. One of the problems with "BSA Rules" is that they change from day to day and and from council to council and for the most part people don't know what they are at any given time. I find it quite useful to do what you think is best and change it if they yell at you. I was told by a council employee once that the reason the permit is used is because it has the insurance type info, itinerary, etc. just in case something goes wrong on the trip, the council has information available to begin dealing with the problem. Did the boys return on time? Do all the drivers have valid driver's licenses? Do they carry insurance? etc. Sometimes a signed tour permit allows troops access to campgrounds, etc. when the people know that things are all on the up-and-up. It kinda works like a letter of introduction and may help in opening doors along the way. Stosh

Calico, It only goes to show how much we really don't understand and how much we assume from the bits and pieces of personality we get off these posts. Thanks for the update. I'm a Packer Fan, not a PACKER FAN!!! I like my brats, don't own a Farve jersey, watch when I'm able and turn it off at half time because the Pack is playin' like a bunch of old ladies. Where's Lombardi and Starr when you need them? Alas, the good old days! Stosh

"I don't agree however with that part about assigning patrol leaders. All Scouts deserve to be represented on the PLC and that's best done when the new Scouts select one of their own to represent them. The Troop Guide is there as an older experienced Scout to guide and help the inexperience PL." Yes, I agreed that was not the most ideal situation, but 1333scouter's problem was that half of his troop was going to be new scouts. That's a lot of boys with no leadership training being assigned into patrols and producing half a PLC with no idea what's going on. If the PL was an older scout "assigned", that scout could be a mentor to all the boys of the new patrol rotating them through the APL position teaching leadership along the way. During their training ALL the boys of the NSP would have an opportunity to participate on the PLC to continue their learning of how things work on the troop support level. If the NSP elected a PL and APL from their own numbers, they would serve for 6 months and if reelected would serve for a whole year, giving experience to 2 and nothing to the other 6. At best, 4 of the boys would have any leadership experience. If an older boy took PL and each of the 7 new scout served as APL for 2 months, that covers the 14 months of the first "year" experience. I would only recommend this with the NSP's simply because they lack any idea of how the troop works, they have had no training, and the only basis for election would be on personality and not ability. I wouldn't think of not having NSP representation on the PLC, but it would be good to have a PL who's looking out for the welfare of his boys, spearhead their introduction into the troop processes one at a time for 2 months each. If the TG is going to be the mentor/assistant to the NSP's officers, that would mean he divides his time and focus on 3-4 patrols, and is in fact responsible for 6-8 boys who are responsible for 20-30 boys. I have found that is too much for any one person to take on. Most adults with multiple staff handle that many boys at one time. Remember 1333scouter's problem means he is taking on a group the size larger than many troops and he's trying to do it with minimally experienced boys leading totally inexperienced boys. "How does what you propose meet 1333scouter's major concern about the older guys needing to bond with and assist the younger scouts? When we separate the new scouts into their own patrol with just a few old scouts as PL/Instructor/TG, aren't we inhibiting that process rather than promoting it?" If one looks closely at the math I proposed about half the older boys would be needed to work directly with the NSP boys. There would also be a number of others that would work indirectly such as the QM, Scribe, etc. B-P indicated that the patrols should be 8 boys. That means 7 new boys/patrol, one older PL. Those boys would be in contact obviously with the TG but he would be shared amongst 4 patrols, and then there would be another 3-4 older scouts that would rotate Instruction in the patrols. That means 12 boys right there that would interact directly with 28 boys, about 2.5-to-1 ratio between older boys and new boys. It also gives functionality to the interaction between new and older boys. If that number is doubled because of 1333scouter's situational need that puts 25 of 40 older boys in direct contact with the new boys on a regular basis. That leaves 15 boys for such things as 2 Venture patrols and/or other troop POR's such as Chaplain, Historian, Scribe etc. I would envision at least 2/3's of the older boys working and getting to know the new boys especially during that first year. I have found that boys work well with functional boys working with training of younger boys without distinction of age. Right now I have 11 year old Webelos coming into my troop that has 2 Life scouts (aged 14 & 16), 2 FC (both 15) and 3 Scouts (aged 14, 15 & 15). Ok who's the older boys and who's the new boys? If the older boys are "forced" to interact with the younger boys through leadership and training, they will bond a lot faster than a total NSP of all newbies and the older boys interacting with them only as Instructors and Guides. That's kinda like teacher/students. Yes, some will bond, but not as good as being buddied up with them for training. 1333scouter is facing what I am presently facing but at a 2 to 1 ratio and a lot larger number of boys. I have 6 boys and 12+ new scouts, a 3 to 1 ratio. What scares me is next year I will once again face a major growth spurt with my 20+ boys taking on 50-60 Webelos. I've got just 12 months to train my boys up to a PL level with FC rank so I have a corp of boys functional enough to pull off next year. I don't see a problem except if I don't get my boys functional. I'm not suggesting an ideal situation here or the solution that will fit in every circumstance, but 1333scouter is facing rather unique situation that calls for some thinking outside the box to make it work. The BSA program is designed for a specific program that handles a normal situation. How one adapts that program to meet extraordinary situations he describes, will challenge the leadership skills of more than just 1333scouter, but every boy in his troop. If 1333scouter was taking on 25 new boys in a troop of 50, my advice would be different. Stosh

John, We've had this discussion before.... you list wine in the ingredients, but somehow from the instructions it doesn't seem to have made it into the pot. Hmmmm.... This thread may get "cut off" at any moment... I'm beginning to wonder if we're going to need a designated driver for this forum. Stosh LOL! Thanks John, nice edit!(This message has been edited by jblake47)

If it weren't for the internet, I can visualize this conversation set around a blazing campfire at camp. A dozen Dutch ovens circling around the fire all with a different aroma of pot roast wafting on the breeze. Scoutmomma sitting in a lawnchair with a bottle of wine in her hand and her expression a little glazed over staring off into space. Evmori sitting on a campstool huddled over the Dutches trying not to drool on himself too much. OldGreyEagle is sitting there pondering the universe and wondering why the Christians don't have a salt of their own. And Bob, Beavah, and Gold off in the shadows making a cloud of dust, wailing away on each other.... CalicoPenn is cheering them on with a tailgate party of her own with a brat in one hand and beer in the other yelling "GO PACK!" Do cheese hats qualify as an official uniform piece in Wisconsin? FScouter has thrown a penalty flag but can't remember why, and LisaBob is standing there shaking her head wondering whether she should laugh or cry. Ya gotta love this Scouting stuff. Stosh who is taking names and notes and will tell everyone's mom when he gets home. :^)

Those things in life we pay the heaviest price for end up being the things that are of the greatest value to us. I'm sure that as time passes, your son will realize the value in the lessons he learned that went far beyong the project he chose. My sincere congratulations to your son on his Eagle and the class act he demonstrated to those around him in getting it. Stosh

And here's the 2-cents worth from the guy who has no idea of how scouting works... :^) First of all, it is my opinion that the boy led, patrol method, starts with the PL as the most important/highest ranking position in the troop. Start with that position as your #1 priority, If it is your concern that this troop be boy-led and develop the patrol method, what better way than to select your very best for these PL positions. Find the best of the youth leadership and put them in the PL positions of the NSP. Yeah, yeah, I know, but asign them there or do a one person nominated ballot if one needs to vote. If the new scouts were so lucky so as to have had a DC from the troop, consider having this person put into the PL position, he already has a foot in the door with the new scouts. It may ease some of the situation anxiety the new scouts may have if they have a trusted scout leading them. Then redesign your support corps to have one TG for every 2-3 NSP's. This person's #1 responsibility is to work "under" the PL's and assist them in keeping track of the advancement status and concerns of the boys in their patrols. This frees the PL's from having to keep track of such information and frees him up to work more hands-on mentoring with the boys in his patrol. Then pick some of the top older boys who have a modicum of teaching skills to be instructors for these NSP's. This group of Instructors, working with the TG, should be able to design an appropriate schedule of training to work through the target FC requirements. Let's say one has 3 NSP's they are dealing with. That would mean they would need 3 PL's, at TG and maybe 2-3 Instructors. That's six people. A ASPL should be able to lead/handle 6 people in this activity and as a support person for the ASPL in charge of the NSP's, ask the SM for an ASM to assist, maybe the ASM for advancement might work, or an ASM that just likes working with the new scouts. That's 8 people working as a team for the NSP's. That "design" of leadership allows the SPL to only have one person he is in contact with to cover the support of the entire NSP setup for the troop. It's the same for the SM with his one ASM. It frees them up to work with other areas of concern in the troop. If one has put quality leaders into these positions, it shouldn't be any drain on the troop resources as these new scouts are assimilated into the troop activities. It also gives 6-8 scouts solid functional POR's to work at. As a side note, the APL's of the NSP's should rotate every now and then to give each boy in the new patrols an opportunity to try out their leadership talents with the rest of his buddies. That way when he gets to FC, he'll be ready to start digging seriously into developing his own leadership skills. So in fact this "setup" will take the equivalent of 1 patrol (6-8 people) and redistribute their skills into a team that should be able to handle 20-25 new scouts (3-4 patrols or 1/4th of the boys coming from a 100 member pack) Ok, so you have 45 new scouts... take the forumula above and double it to 6-8 patrol leaders, 2 TG's, 4-6 Instructors, and 2 ASPL's and 2 ASM's. What? That's half your boys? All serving in FUNCTIONAL POR's? You'll probably need a good QM to keep the gear organized and a functional scribe to keep all the paperwork in order, and a good Chaplain, etc. etc. etc. That means that just about everyone in your troop is going to have to actually DO SOME REAL LEADERSHIP in the next year if they are going to be able to take on all those new Webelos boys! I think if I did the math correctly, that's 3 adults and a ton of boys working to support 7-8 NSP's. If you can pull that off over the course of the next year, look at what you have at the other end of the tunnel. You're older half of the troop has successfully pulled off a major advancement for the troop's strength and size. The younger half has been carefully trained, shown and experienced hands-on leadership all around them and has advanced to FC rank. You now have 35-40 experienced boys who have worked a year in the boy-led patrol-method style, another 45 who are just ready to spread their wings, and next year's crop of new boys ready to cross over? How many new boys do you think those 80 experienced FC scouts can handle? With that corps of boys ready to go, the SM just might have to take on another ASM to be ready to help out. At the end of your second year, you have so many scouts with leadership skills, that the upper tier of boys will have to start looking at such things as Boundary Waters, Philmont, Jamorees, SeaBase and the such just to find something to do. Will they have the skills, training, and leadership to do these things? Without a doubt! You will have so much leadership in your troop that no Cub Scout Pack can garner up enough boys to even cause a ripple in your troop when they cross over. Stosh

AHA! You were going to get us to serve wine to our youth with a recipe you hadn't even tried out? Shame on you! I thought I was doing really well with the fun post until the Kosher salt came up! Nice touch! I'm sure the scouting contingency from Idaho is rallying as we speak as well. I do have to admit the ingredience and cooking with wine is an excellent way of getting our boys off the hot dog and pop tart diets they seem to seek. I have to admit I have slipped in a touch of the spirits in my gravies and sauces over the year especially when competing against others in the Dutch oven cookoffs. Gotta have an edge. Remember: "Age and trechery will win out over youth and exhuberance anyday!" Coming from Wisconsin, I do agree that messing with the beer and brats recipies is akin to treason. Thanks Scoutmomma, good post! Seriously, it sounds like a good recipe, I'm gonna try it for sure. Maybe we can get the forum people to create a section just for good campfire/Dutch oven recipes! Dang, I'm hungry, gotta go eat something. Stosh

My apologies to all, but I'm going to have to report this major infraction of scout policy to the national offices! It's one thing to blatantly expose our children to the gregeous pitfalls of life, but to document one's confession on a public forum is an atrocity. As scouters we must be ever vigilant and loyal to our responsibilities to the welfare of our precious youth. MODERATORS! Would you please escort ScoutMomma off the forum for suggesting, albeit under the guise of a pot roast recipe, that we as respected scout leaders serve alcohol to our underaged boys. I would assume that she has, by her confession, already caused great harm to her fellow campers at coucil camp, harmed the reputation of others by smuggling in such brown-bagged contraband. Oh the inhumanity of it all! Those poor innocent boys, who only hours before had never been exposed to the demon rum, now, fallen and disgraced for having been served such a fare, and would have partaken in full scout regalia. Such disregard for those entrusted to our care should never be tolerated and those who foist such a heinous crime upon all should be cast from our midst! Oh, and by the way, have a nice day. Stosh

Unfortunately this topic is now a moot point. The boy dropped out. After the other boys came back all excited about their time at camp and all the fun they had, the boy attended a couple of meetings and then never came back. Stosh

My 2-cents worth. I would approach this situation in a similar way as the Woodbadge ticket. Have the boy set some goals for himself, let him decide what role he wants to play, get it on paper and give him a chance to do what he wants to do. He's earned the opportunity to set his own agenda and how he wants to play it out with the troop. Who knows? Maybe his #1 goal will be to a DC for some young Webelos or Wolf/Bear boys. Don't let the program dictate to him, let him design his scouting career in terms of what he would like to do instead of what he's had to do in the past to "fulfill" the requirements. Stosh

Courtesy is not a skill to be learned, it is an attitude that can be cultivated. When I took over my new troop 6 mo's a go, I had 5 boys and they referred to me by my first name. When I was first introduced to them it was with my whole name. When speaking in front of the other boys, I started referring to them by Mr. and their last name. There is confusion if their parents are also leaders, so I also refer to them by their rank: i.e. Tenderfoot Smith, or Star Roberts. Without any corrections, reminders, etc. there are now no boys who refer to me by my first name. If courtesy and respect is given, it is also received. In the case of the hot chocolate, I would probably turn to my best scouts and ask the question: "I wonder if the Outdoor Code applies Indoors as well?" It is then up to them to decide whether or not it applies. If they don't think so, I would simply say, "I guess to me it does" and then clean it up myself. Courtesy as well as leadership is demonstrated by example. If one is going to lead, they have to get out in front. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

For those who think Scouting is any different than any other organization when it comes to these kinds of discussions, think again. For the past 9 years I have been in the world of reenacting and have a crew that is part of that world. There are those who are extreme reenactors and these people attempt to be perfectly historic. They are sometimes referred to as Mudsills or Stitch-counters. They emerse themselves in the event to the point where they do not interact with the crowds and even have events where they live in a historical setting with no one else around. Then there are the Progressives. Those that try to be very authentic and keep progressing towards a better historical impression. My boys in the crew fit into this group. At the "bottom" of the heap are the FARBS (Far be it from authentic) These people like to KOA camp with a historical theme for the weekend. But wait, there's more! Now here's where I want to make sure no one assumes that I'm addressing anyone on this forum, but the reenactors who have done their research through Hollywood movies and show up with their cell phones are called "BOB" (Better off Bowling). These people are the lepers of the hobby. One can say all they want about these different levels of authenticity in the reenacting hobby, but at an event, guess which group draws the biggest spectator crowds!!! No matter how good the pot roast may be, the kids will always choose Micky D's! Stosh

It is my opinion that we do not expect more than the normal for our boys. I recently attended an Eagle BOR for a scout that had finished on time, had 21 MB's and had attended no other summer camp other than the council camp, and never had gone on any high adventure trips nor attended the Jamboree. He had covered his bases, but had never been give the opportunity to really apply what he was learning. He did his requirements and one can't add more than just what is spelled out in the book. Sorry, I don't buy that for one moment. If one does not empower these boys to be leaders, there's no amount of learning that will make them so. Stosh

My two denari... I teach boys to teach. One of the things I have learned over the years is that if one teaches, they really have to know their material in order to do so. Is this expecting more than the requirements of BSA direct? Nope. If the boy only demonstrates he can do something, it doesn't necessarily mean he knows anything about it. One must understand the requirement, not just demonstrate once that for the next 5 minutes and remember enough to get credit for it to pass rank. Can the boy take what he has demonstrated and apply it to other situations other than a scout meeting? Can he translate that double half hitch to a grommet in a dining fly? Can he teach the next scout how to do it? Sometimes this is a great thing, sometimes it's a total embarrassment. With my Venturing crew, I can hand a boy a Civil War canteen and he can give me a 10-15 minute talk about it. These boys regularly do in-school presentations and once a year teach a whole day in one our local schools. Most of these boys acquire these skills long before they turn 16 and can drive themselves to these school presentations on their own. I also tried working with boys on the Webelos level that were totally unaware that they were indeed even learning let alone teach. It wasn't a game, it was just opportunities for the boys to satisfy their curiosity and given a responsibility they took seriously. The CM of the Webelos boys I had once asked one of the boys during the pack award presentation what he had done to earn the Readyman pin. He had no idea and was embarrassed in front of everyone. I simply asked him if he had his first aid kit with him. He pulled it from his pocket. I asked him if he knew how to use it he said sure he did. I said, why don't you show the CM all the neat stuff you have in there. He then went on for the next few minutes, teaching the CM about all the neat things he had in his kit. If these boys can teach, they know their stuff and I have the potential for a great PL, TG or Instructor. Stosh

My church is a CO of a troop I am not affiliated with. I will still show up in uniform and I'm sponsoring the coffee and donuts on behalf of Scouting. I have no idea what the local troop is planning on doing, but they do show in uniform and do the ushering as I can tell from previous Scout Sundays. Stosh

If my memory serves me correctly, I think the requirements for the national DC Award requires the BSA training OR training designed by the DL. We have given dens boys mature enough to handle being instructed to the specific needs of that DL and den. Whenever the DL training is offered, we strongly encourage our DC's to make use of the opportunity. Stosh

We use the Yahoo boards for our troop and we can lock it down tight so that visitors can see posted messages only and yet invited members can have free rein to use all dynamics of the board. We've been using it for a couple of years now and have had no problems. Stosh

DC's in my previous troop were always assigned by request either from the boy or the pack. If the pack needed a DC we got it one. If a boy wanted to be a DC, we found him a pack. I don't see all the need for SM getting the SPL to assign one, etc. etc. etc. Just make it happen. I have had several boys acquire the DCAward working through this process. When I left the troop, they had 3 DC's on their roster, 2 of them members of the Honor Patrol. They had all earned the DCAward and were still functioning as DC's. As far as training? 1) have fun with the boys and 2) listen and do what the DL tells you to do. It seems to work pretty well for the boys that I've seen doing the job of DC. Stosh(This message has been edited by Jblake47)

I would think that this issue would be the #1 goal of every leadership program. Can these boys take what they have learned and venture forth independent of all the safety nets, adult supervision, and for a brief time function like an adult with other adults? When I went fishing in Canada with my buddies, I didn't need to ask my parents, or my boss, or anyone else for that matter. We just organized our trip and we went. For me, this is what I am working towards with my boys. I start out with little steps along the way just like anything else in the program. Do your boys have patrol meetings on their own where they can plan and do things? It can be at one of their homes, at the mall or after school or just about anywhere. Maybe 10-15 minutes to make plans. Do the boys eventually like to hang out with each other. Do they take any pride in their patrol, do they banter and tease each other like the WB guys do? Do they group up and head out for non-scouting events, i.e. movie, sports game, xBox tournament? Once these boys hang together, it's time to focus their energies into leadership training -- planning, organizing, and doing things as a true patrol. If one of the boys is working on his Eagle are the others there to help? Are these boys truly friends? If these patrols are always fragmented, changing, fluent and lack stability, then they are always trying to reinvent the wheel and never get a chance to really show solid leadership. Even Beavah's choice of title for this thread is indicative of the problem. Solo means a single individual. We do well with getting our Eagles to solo, but do we ever really develop team leadership? Can the adults let go and let the patrol develop and grow as would any other group moving towards maturity/independence? Stosh