Stosh

A lot of the position hype is what we as adults (especially parents) make it out to be. As many on the forum know I view the "command structure" to be different than many of the others. What I end up with is 3-4 boys being in the top position of the "troop". That way if one has 3-4 different boys all deserving to be top dog, they have a spot, each with their own patrol, each running their own "show". Those who wish to take a secondary role in the troop because of their expertise and wisdom, step DOWN and take roles on the supportive troop level and become SPL, ASPL, TG, QM, etc. This year I asked my most senior boy to step down from his PL position to take TG. We have no SPL or ASPL. We will have 3 patrols this year consisting of mostly new scouts. Before he agreed he asked me what the TG was supposed to do. I said, "First of all, make the 3 PL's look good in front of their boys." Before I got to "second of all", he volunteered. Because the boys know that by taking a troop officer position they are not stepping up, but stepping down to a support role, they are able to explain this to their parents that this is not a demotion, but an opportunity to really show some support/servant leadership. Another boy came to me and asked if he could be QM. I told him it would be a lot of work. We would be going from one patrol to three and the work load would be very difficult and confusing at time. Then I asked him if he thought he was ready. He said no, but he still would like to give it a try... I now have a new QM too. When one has boys coming and asking for the tough assignments and difficult jobs because it needs to be done rather than just to get a POR patch and pass easy rank advancement, one knows they're on the right track. Stosh

Gee Beavah, I don't recall anywhere in my post that said adults shouldn't eat at campouts, I only made the observation that no one's going to die if they go easy on the food for the weekend, or to pack a little lighter with the food stores for extended hikes. Carrying extra weight around the middle or in the pack isn't really that much different 4-5 days out on a hike. At least I can toss out the food, the waist waste, I gotta keep with me. :^) I was only making the observation that for the most part we as a society and I've seen it at the troops as well, a lot of food is really not all that necessary to get by. At a normal campout I do not avail myself of the crackerbarrels, I eat a lighter b-fast than the rest of the troop, eat what's served for lunch and cut back on dinner. Now we do have growing boys, but a balanced diet of appropriate proportions is not unreasonable for campouts. Stosh

I read once that a person could die with the lack of oxygen for 3 minutes, lack of water for 3 days and lack of food for 30 days. With that in mind, I have found that on a weekend one cannot starve to death. They may be uncomfortable, but they won't starve. It often surprises those around me who actually think I'm in great shape because I can out hike them, when in fact I'm only carrying about 1/10th the weight in food that they are. Stosh

It always amazes me the $'s involved with scouting. It is nothing compared to what a SCUBA unit would invest in equipment, a reenactor unit would invest in uniform/equipment, etc. My Crew boys pay $90.00 for boots and they work up from there.... My boys also know that if they make their own stuff they can save big dollars. Trousers that normally go for $115 can be made for about $30. And yes, my boys have all learned to sew since they came into the Crew. I do however, outfit my Boy Scouts with a lot of E-Bay purchases. I can find pants around $15 consistantly and I have purchased the old red pin-trimed mule-eared pants for less than $5. The last lot I purchased was 5 trousers 1 shorts, various sizes, - $15 including shipping. Campaign hats are on the internet for around $30 but they are not BSA. From 5' away one can't tell the difference anyway. Our boys like the felt BSA expedition hats for $35, look great and hold up under any kind of weather. Put the big 1" First Class pin on them and they look really sharp! Stosh

Buffalo, You have certainly gotten a great grasp of the transitional period for your boys. If I might be so bold as to offer a suggestion to your structure. Invite 1-2 Boy Scouts from the troop you are planning on crossing to and have them be the "adults" on your campouts. Instead of having parents/DL's giving guidance and support, have these Scouts there for that purpose. Definitely keep your adults around, but only for observation purposes. It is unfortunate you were not able to secure a DC for your process because he would be an excellent role-model/guide for your boys. It would have given your parents a person in the new troop that they already knew and trusted and would make an excellent TG for your boys after they crossed. Other than that little liason link I think you are doing an excellent job of preparing these boys for Scouts! My last big HURRAH outing for my Webelos was always as you described but with my older Scouts coming in to help out. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I think chivalry is slowly making a comeback. For a long time it was actually socially unacceptable. As a SM I have begun to teach chivalry to my boys and encourage them to be boldly chauvanistic. Hold doors, let others go first, be polite, defend others against bullies, make eye contact when meeting someone, leave the area when using a cell phone, introduce oneself first and offer your hand. Address your elders as sir or ma'am, be helpful, courteous, kind, friendly ... (duh!) I have noticed that people will now say thank you when you hold the door instead of giving me a scowl. It was intesting a few months back that after doing a little presentation on making introductions, my girl friend came with me to the Christmas COH and before the night was over she commented on how nice these young men were and that many of them came over, introduced themselves and chatted for a minute or two. This was something that hadn't happened before in the other troop I was with. We had Webelos visitors come from a troop not planning on joining up with us, but had come to visit anyway. After the meeting one of the moms went up to my TG and thanked him for a job well done with the boys' activity that evening. He introduced himself, shook her hand, thanked her for her kind comments and said he hoped her boy would consider joining our troop instead of the other one. Upon completion of that little conversation she went over to the informational table and picked up a registration form for her boy. Chivalry if done from the heart is a serious leadership tool that every boy should have in his arsenal. Stosh

The reason everyone has so much problem with communication isn't the communication, it's the expectation of communication and how the scouts react to it. If a national sports figure was going to be in town and the PR people put a blurp in the local newsrag, even though the boys never read the paper, the skuttlebutt would get around and every one would know where and when and would remember it like it was a national secret. The reason everyone gets flack from parents is because the boys don't care enough to remember and that means that if Johnnie goofs off too much the parents won't be able to put a "I'm proud of my Eagle Scout" bumper sticker on their SUV. What would the neighbors say and how will this boy who can't remember anything ever get into a good college? For the want of a horse, the kingdom was lost. If a troop must rely on 1) a web page, 2) a newsletter, 3) sending out individual e-mails, 4) PL's making announcements, and 5) PL's making phone calls, then there's something other than communication seriously wrong with the situation. It sounds like this troop is a serious candidate for Ritalin therapy. This is overkill! Get real. When I was young (a few years back when it snowed uphill both ways) we would get a permission slip for a field trip from the teacher, we would take it home, give to Mom, she'd sign it and we'd take it back. If not WE DIDN'T GO and WE caught hell from Mom. It was never the teacher's fault, it was an exercise in teaching responsibility and we had to learn it for ourselves. I would also take issue with the PL not getting credit for rank advancement because his membership was irresponsible. That "requirement" is totally unjustified and put's a person's success in the hands of others, irresponsible others at that. All that teaches is to avoid being a PL at all cost and if elected, turn it down. Being a PL does not mean babysitting, it means teaching leadership and leadership means responsible patrol members. Stosh

Knight, welcome to the forum. I agree with everything you have said and more. In this area (working on a 10# problem right now) and (as an ex-smoker myself) in the area of tobacco usage we do not lead by example very well. However, I disagree with you on one point. Physically strong part of the oath. Do you realize how much muscle it takes to haul around 150# of extra fat? Ohio-Scouter does offer an excellent option for scouters. I am also a Crew Advisor for reenactors which requires me to be in better than average shape. (Thus my working on a 10# problem right now!) :^) I often wonder who well these people are able to challenge their youth with backpacking, hiking, canoeing, etc. when they are having difficulty keeping up themselves. Without derailing your thread, the issue of age may also become a consideration. At 57 I know I can't do a heavy duty trek at Philmont and keep up with the pace of the boys. That's why one recruits young ASM's! Stosh

It sounds a little bit like some responsibility needs to be placed on your youth. This is the kind of thing that happens when Johnnie doesn't bring his homework home from school. Somehow it's the teacher's fault that insufficient commication is causing their kid to flunk school. I have a Yahoo Group with troop calendar on it. I post messages that go out to everyone who wishes to receive them in e-mail. I post their son's progress in advancement, I post a listing of all the kid's addresses and phone numbers, I invite all parents to become members of the group so they can get this information any time they need it. Then every PL trains his people to bring paper and pencil and to write things down, keep it in their handbooks and share with their parents. If the boy forgets and the parent has to call someone, it's the PL that fields the calls. With multiple patrols, I can't always keep track of what each one is up to what on any given night so I too have to refer to the troop calendar to find out the information. Usually the PL and/or parent just goes to the web page and that's the end of the issue. This ploy by the parent is just an excuse to blame someone for their son's irresponsibility. Your CC is getting sucked into the process as well. Stosh

I have had training and experience from Cubbing all the way through Venturing. I have seen the transitions and heard the concerns. The observations I have made are not meant to be judgmental, but they seem to repeat themselves over and over again. I'll offer up just one case in point. I transitioned 2 different Webelos units over into Scouting. In the first group I had one boy who was treated rather cautiously by his parents, he struggled through summer camp and soon quit scouting and went off on other paths. His parents realizing the dynamics of what happened didn't treat the next two boys the same way, severing the hand-holding as soon as they went into Scouting. Both of these brothers Eagled. I can't say this will happen every time, but I can cite many cases in the past 20 years of scouting I have been involved in and protective parents have a tendency of holding their boys back in the early years of Scouting. Webelos is a time of making that transition from heavy parent involvement in Wolves/Bears and a gradual backing away in the Webelos years so their boys are ready for the independence offered in Scouting. Remember, I'm not advocating parents are to wave good-bye forever when the boy crosses over, but a marked difference should be felt by the boy as he turns from the protection of parents to the world of independence. Also if parents are truly concerned about the quality of Scouting leadership of the troop their boy will be going to, it would be ok for them to visit as much as they wish to get to know these leaders. Surely it shouldn't take but 3-4 meetings to get to know them, that's even more than what most parents have with their children's teachers in school. Any parent that has concerns about my leadership of my troop only needs but to ask and I'll even buy the coffee. If they don't like what they see in how I do things, I will work to help them find a troop that meets their needs for their son. Stosh

One of the problems I see with this whole situation is the understanding of just what Eagle rank means. When I went back and worked with the Webelos boys to help transition them into Scouts, I took Webelos I and worked with them. At their Blue & Gold at the end of their first year they all had their Arrow of Light rank. Did they quit Webelos? Nope! Did they transition into Scouts? Nope. They wore their Arrow of Light for the next year and we went out and just had fun doing things, getting ready for Scouting. I think for the most part we have certain expectations for Eagles that don't exactly fit into the Scouting program. Just because one reaches the rank of General in the Army, doesn't mean they are done with the program! Yet that's the expectation we place on our boys. You reach Eagle, you might as well be done. We give you an "honorary" but non-functioning JASM patch to wear because now that you're an Eagle, it's rather stupid to think of you going back into the Cub dens as a DC, or you've done SPL for so long, let someone else have a chance even though everyone in the troop wants you there. Quartermaster? A lot of work and it's a good POR for someone needing advancement, etc. etc. etc. At summer camp last year I met a patrol/troop from out west that had their boys at this camp. They didn't sign up for merit badges, they had all of them being offered. They didn't do the high adventure thingy either. They just hung out at camp and had a blast for the whole week just enjoying each other's company. The patrol/troop was made up of only Life and Eagle scouts. They were discussing such things as the Life scout's projects they were planning, and what they might do, etc. They talked about the troop program "back home", and about scheduling events for the coming year. They were in the site just across the road so I often did visiting with them and, well, I was totally impressed with what I was hearing out of these boys. Their SM was generally not in the site, but did have a lot of coffee down at the mess hall. The age range was 14-17. Was it a PLC? Nope, just a bunch of boys with no structure, working out the future of their troop and what that all meant. To talk by and just get a glimpse of these boys, it would have appeared they weren't doing anything but slacking for the week, but that simply wasn't true. How many of the other Eagles out there even discuss life in scouting beyond the ECOH?, especially the years before they turn 18. I would venture to say most of these boys have no concept beyond receiving the rank, getting their driver's license, and what other things are out there that are more important than scouting. Stosh

It always amazes me why people feel it necessary to make demands on others. If BSA requires religion in it's membership, so be it. If the Catholic church requires the same thing, so be it. If one is not interested in joining a group that has a faith basis to it because one is an agnostic, then just don't join! There are those out there besides oneself that have a right to their own beliefs as well as anyone else. If one doesn't like it, don't hang out with them, make your own group, or do something else. I just get tired of people dictating to others what they can and cannot do under the disguise of some form of "liberty". One cannot say they are promoting freedom and then take it away from others. Stosh

IF the boys actually do the work and have achieved fulfillment of all the requirements, he's ready to be an Eagle. If an adult has to place any arbitrary obstacles in the way of that, they run the risk of letting the boy know that even though he has done all that he is expected, you have not really earned it because you are too young. To me that's a major bogus excuse to dump on a deserving youth. If the boy is 13, has done the work correctly he deserves his Eagle (same holds true for T-2-1, Star, and Life). If not, someone needs to review the requirement process as to why this young boy has fulfilled requirements below standard. Stosh

Participate in a Scoutmaster conference. Complete your board of review. It may be a personal preference, but there is nothing in the requirements that indicate a scout needs to set up the SM conference or the BOR. Both of these items are adult specific and the logistics need to be set up by those running it. The scout does not run the show... Expecting the scout to set these kinds of things up gives me a feeling of adding to the requirement. Just my 2-cents worth, your milage may vary. Stosh

It would be unfair to accuse me of judging the quality of a Boy Scout vs. Venturing/Sea Scout color-guard program. If one were to assume such it would be something they would need to address with themselves for it is not within my power to deal with what others assume. With that being said, it is important to emphasize that there are different rules that dictate different limits between the two organizations. Understanding these does not in any way make one color-guard better or worse, right or wrong, in comparison. I am totally uninformed about the rules of Sea Scouts, but with Venturing, it depends a lot on the activity of the Crew. Because of our situation, national has informed us that we do not have to follow the G2SS as long as we remain within the accepted safety guidelines of the hobby with which we are involved. It would be the same for any activity. If the safety rules of SCUBA or rock-climbing were more strict than those of BSA, the hobby rules would prevail. I can assure everyone that BSA doesn't always know what is the best policy in every situation and must rely on the dependability and common sense of it's leaders to make the appropriate adaptations to the activities. Whenever we did depart from G2SS we confirmed it with the national office, the office always went with our information. For example, in the reenacting hobby, on a large bore artillery piece, a Venturer is not allowed to participate, yet it is the only place in the hobby where the crew members on the piece have to be 16 years of age and certified by a nationally accredited school of artillery. That level of safety is the highest and the venturers cannot participate, but they can participate in any of the other non-safety certified places in the hobby. Go figure. Check with national on these issues to make sure there isn't some leeway in the process to allow venturers or scouts to do something a little out of the norm for their situation. Color-guards may or may not fall into some leeway areas, it would be difficult to venture a guess because of their high visibility to the public. Check with national. Stosh

Why is it that parents can fork up $200-$300 for a full hockey outfit that the boy wears for 2-3 seasons, but they can't come up with $100 for a full uniform for Scouts that he'll wear for 7 full years? The money argument is bogus. I have boys in my troop coming up with $1000+ for a uniform and no parents complaining. For those who are financially strapped there is E-Bay or older boys who have grown out of their uniforms that could cut a deal with a smaller new scout. These are not major issues. Stosh

Every time, at any time, I do a SM conference, I immediately notify the ASM - Advancement to get a BOR together for the boy. It's no big deal, plenty of volunteers around and once a few boys have done their BOR we're ready to consider a COH. I don't see the importance of any major ordeal and regulated format for such a simple process for the boys. They finished the requirements, wrap up the details and move on with life. Stosh

One must always be aware there is a difference between Ships/Crews and Troops. There are a lot of things a Crew can do that a Troop cannot. My crew is trained in full military color-guard including full drill up to and including batallion level maneuvers at least at the 1860's level. With that being said we annually participate in at least a half-dozen flag ceremonies which often include a full 21-gun salute with real weapons using blank rounds. Not much of what we do would be applicable to a Troop. Only one's council can define where that vague line lies in your particular area. Stosh

I guess I'm not understanding this BOR thingy very well. I thought a BOR was a BOR. I didn't think there was a TFoot BOR and that being different than a 2nd Cl BOR and then a 1st Cl BOR. What is going on that's different unless maybe there's a little "retesting" going on? If I went to 3 BOR's a week apart and the same question came up "So, how do you like Scouting thus far?" I would figure out really quick that this was a genuine waste of time. I would think that a few extra minutes to review advancement for all three ranks could be done rather quickly and then go on to the questions that would be the same for any BOR. If a boy was doing all three at the same time, I might include a question as to why it happened to come out that way, but it wouldn't take but a minute or so to give an answer. Maybe I'm making too little light of BOR's. I always thought that this was a great time of celebration with the boy and I got to be the first one to shake his hand having earned a new rank. I guess I used the BOR's as an opportunity for the boy to think back over his experiences, (review them, duh!), identify those he liked, those he didn't, those that were easy, those that were hard, what his plans were for his next rank and when did he target that completion, how he like the other boys, did he have any problems, etc. things like that. If I were to do 3 BOR's a week a part, I'd have a tough time trying to remember what I had asked this boy the week before so as to not be wasting his and my time. Nope, I don't think it's necessary, 1 BOR, 3 ranks, no problem. The only downside to the whole problem I can imagine is the boy would never get to sew 2 of the rank badges on his uniform. (Like that would happen even if the BOR's were a week apart!) It would also be a shame that the boy missed out on two spots in the limelights at a COH too but that wouldn't happen without a long wait between ranks either. Stosh

I don't see why it's necessary to have them as a requirement and get credit for it. If the information is important the boys can go through it just because... well, it's important. If it's important enough for the older boys, don't wait until it comes out in MB, just teach it anyway. If the only reason boys are doing anything in scoutiong is to get some kind of credit for it, get a patch on one's shirt, or to get an award, then maybe it's time to rethink scouting. The new requirements are a good topic for any meeting regardless of anyone's rank. If some get some kind of credit and others don't, it's not the end of the world. The boys will survive and may appreciate the conversation at the meeting anyway. Stosh

Ok, Devil's Advocate here.... The teaching/learning style these kids are used to in school is... well, like school. Some teaching goes on with TV, Videos, and Computers... Then there's MB's... let's make them like nothing that is being done anywhere else. They all have to be a game. Let's make CPR a game. Let's make Emergency Preparedness a game. Let's make it.... I'm not a traditionally trained teacher per se, but I have had lots of experience teaching. Not everything has to be a game, nor does it have to be fun. As long as it's interesting and/or relevant, students will accept it and learn. Teaching someone CPR isn't fun, but it's necessary the boys (well, anyone for that matter) have these skills. I have gotten the boys through a lot of MB's in a classroom type/style of teaching. It can be done, it can be interesting, it can be relevant and if every boy walks away with something of value to his life, one has accomplished the MB sucessfully. If one has to have games to keep it interesting, then there's something fundamentally wrong with the presentation in the first place. Stosh

Just my perspective, but those who wish to have the boys wait seem to be a little on the power hungry/control freakish side of things. If the boy earned rank, he gets it. The only motive for such a suggestion would be to let the boy know who's running the show and that toeing the line is expected by those callling the shots. Sounds like it's time to get new committee members that are interested supporting the boys, not place restrictions on them. A BOR is a BOR NOT a Tenderfoot BOR or a 2nd Class BOR, etc. It is no different than a SM conference. Those aren't tied to rank either. If a boy isn't advancing, it's time for a SM conference. It raises an interesting idea. Can there be BOR's called when a boy does not advance? or is the reviewing only for advancement? What if a boy is having difficulty with the SM and isn't progressing because of it? What if the SM has signed off on everything but SS or SM conference and won't until the boy starts to behave, etc. Stosh

"Having a gas furnace, I would figure out how to manually operate the stupid thing and then I wouldn't have to worry about the frozen pipes." You'd have to have someone stand there and manually turn the blower. The easiest way to prevent frozen pipes is to just let the water dribble a bit. :^) GW, I don't think you are from the upper midwest. It gets really cold up here and it's usually an ice storm that takes out the electricity for any period of time. Kerosene furnaces have no blower and neither do wood burning pot-bellied stoves, if one can get the elements to ignite, one really doesn't need to blow it all over the house, it'll rise on it's own up the duct work. And I'm sure you've never been in a house with the temps below freezing either. Yep, the water pipes will not freeze with the water moving, but the drain will quickly fill with ice build up and plug, over flow the sink, and turn your basement into a great ice skating rink. At that point you are going to wish you had frozen pipes. If one turns off the water at the point where it enters the house, there is a drain off valve right by the meter. After the water is turned off, open all the faucets in the entire house and they will release the water to flow back down and out of the drain off valve. It takes about 5-10 minutes and there's no fear of indoor ice skating rinks. Remember you have to thaw your rink after the electricity comes back on before you can drain out your basement. In a real emergency, I have met people who burned furniture in the kitchen sink for survival. Blizzards in North Dakota are just plain dangerous. The natives talk of the Blizzard of 1936 where a lot of people simply suffocated in their homes because rescuers couldn't get to them and dig them out to get air to them below the snow. Real emergencies aren't for the faint of heart. After 3 years of that I moved to balmy Wisconsin where the winters are a lot better. It rarely goes below -30 degrees. Stosh

Our CO provides a great meeting place, storage place for gear and trailer, pays the chartering fee and all the registrations including a Boy's Life subscription for every boy. Stosh

GWD is correct, kids can't learn courtesy if their parents have no idea what it is. If that be the case, teach it yourself. As I said, I refer to my kids as Mr. ----- and they answer back with Mr. B____. I salute them and they return the courtesy. I treat them courteously and get it back. Lead by example. It's no big deal to set the norm for the troop. Stosh