Stosh

What adults seldom realize when they tell the kid to get over it, it's just a bully, is that what may appear to be annoying to an adult is devastating to a young child. They have not yet experienced and dealt with the bullying tactics of older people. If they perceive a threat, that threat is real! To an adult it may be petty, but for the child it is REAL! Until the adults realize this, they will continually condone bullying. In fact, to the victim, such condoning is bullying in and of itself. This adult will not help, if they are not part of the solution, they must be part of the problem (i.e. threat that this situation will not go away) I'll go on record to say that if an adult ever sides, excuses, or makes excuses for a bully, they are in fact bullies themselves. A victim of bullying is no different than a victim of abuse or rape. Once society realizes this things will change, but not until. Stosh

I guess I wouldn't say bullying always includes an element of harm to the other person, nor do I think it's always a long-term repeated process towards any one person. A bully is basically a totally self-centered person who will maniputlate, intimidate, coerce and cajole anyone and everyone to gain self satisfaction or position in life. If they find certain individuals suseptable to such antics, they can and often times do latch on to them and keep their ego driven domination going for extended periods of time. Taken to the extreme it is often referred to as abusive and would be very harmful. But it doesn't have to be that extreme to be bullying. Putting onself as dominant or more self-important than others sometimes is rather petty. Having to weave in and out and pass every car on the highway to gain a five minute earlier arrival time does in fact intimidate and threaten those on the road. At times it may be dangerous but for sure it is annoying to others who are more socially savvy. In social gatherings bullying may be nothing more than mere annoyance. The person who must hog the discussion or who must "win" every discussion. Somewho they dog others until they give up and the bully gets the last word in. I have seen it on other forums where one gentleman can have 3, 4, or 5 to 6 responses ALL IN A ROW without even waiting for others to enter into the dialog. Bullying is not a problem of the "victim", but of the "victimizer". The self promotion and attitude of superiority taken to the extreme can and will do damage, but when not taken to the extreme remains annoying at best. Stosh

Eamonn does bring up an important issue with the Boatswain/SPL. If one is using the troop method, numbers of 20+ boys is difficult for even adults to handle. It would be rather counter productive to dump on the leadership this way. With the patrol method, each PL has 6-7 boys he is responsible for. Any leader in training can handle that many. The SPL is not part of the patrol and doesn't need to know what's going on, the PL should. When the boys come to the SM and ask questions, it means one of two things. 1) The PL isn't doing his job or 2) everyone in the troop still looks to the adults for leadership direction. Neither of which are indicative of a patrol method program. If a scout has a question and has to go to others for help, there's something wrong with the leadership training. If delegation always comes from the SM -> SPL -> PL -> scout, then if there's a problem, just go to the source of authority for one's answer. If not like Eamonn says, pass the buck down the line. If the delegation is PL -> scout, he has only one resource for the answer to his question, the PL. If the PL can't answer, he goes to the SPL for assistance. If the SPL can't answer he goes to the SM for assistance. The authority stays with the PL. Stosh

If the core question is "Why" use the uniform Method then what relationship does "ranking" have to "why". >>> Unless one is asking why is it ranked and if so why is it not equal with the other methods. What relationship does being dressed snappier to the unit next door have to the uniform Method? >>> It may be an indicator of unit pride in oneself, adding confidence and esprit-de-corps. What relationship does wearing a neckerchief have to the uniform Method. >>> It adds unit identity, like different units in the military use identifiers in their uniforms to do that. What relationship does picking apart uniform accuracy have to the uniform Method? >>> Inspection sheets are good to insure the boys all know what is expected and what goal there is to shoot for. How can you determine the importance and the use of the Method if the things you are talking about are not related to the Method? >>> Just because one doesn't think they apply doesn't mean they don't. Before you can discuss the topic would it first not be beneficial to make sure there was a general understanding of what the Method is? For instance; Can the use of a uniform help reduce social barriers between scouts? Is that a good thing, If it does that, and it is a good thing, then the Uniform Method serves it's purose. >>> Except the uniform isn't required and those boys that can't afford them are singled out immediately. Major social/economic identifier in their face immediately. Maybe they can afford a shirt but not belt and pants. Can the uniform give a youth a sense of belonging to a group or community. If so, and you see that as a good thing, then the Uniform Method serves it's purpose. >>> And how they wear it, why they wear it, and how unique to their unit does give them such feelings. Do others who see a person in uniform recognize and associate specific characteristics and values with that person? If so and you see that as a good thing, then the Uniform Method serves its purpose. >>> For good or bad, the uniform puts the world around that this is a scout. Same way a police uniform, military uniform, doctor's coat, clergy shirt, all identify people and what one can assume to expect from them. >>> Do the Scouts and Scout leaders know and understand that while in uniform others are making determinations of their abilities and values based on the uniform, if so and you see that as a way to reinforce positive traits, then the Uniform METHOD serves its purpose. >>> I do believe most units do. The Method of using a uniform is to accomplish the Aims of Scouting, not to look better than the unit next door. And there are a huge variety of uniforms in the BSA, (not all use neckerchiefs). And their use has nothing to do with where you might rank the Method in importance. Each method of a Scouting Program (and there are three different sets of Methods), effect one or more of the AIMS of Scouting, and that is their only purpose. The Uniform Method has nothing to do with judging success. >>> But alas, it surely does. But as it's been pointed out in an earlier post, it isn't always all that measurable. I like the uniform method it is a classy way of teaching boys something about themselves that one can't get by reading a book or listening to a lecture. But then again, all the methods seem to work equally in that way. Stosh

Not everyone musters up to everyone else's expectations, but my earlier post addressed the issue of why use the uniform method. I believe that was the initiator's question. Obviously ranking it's importance was clearly not a how? question or what? question or a Who? question. I believe I answered why one would wear a uniform, but obviously that wasn't so according to the opinion of a few. Strange, I actually used the word WHY in my comment. Yes, uniform wearing can be compared to business suit wearing at an interview because it answers the question of why. My momma taught me that my opinions are just as important as anyone else's and they can stand on their own merit, I don't have to run down others to try and make mine look more important. I often wonder whether there are those who post who actually read and understand posts they are reacting to. It would help to at least give some credit for those who do make honest comments. Blowing off people really doesn't advance the discussion effectively. Stosh

If people are coming to the SM for directions, it must be adult led. It's good to delegate to the boys. However, if one delegates to the SPL, it must mean the method being used is the troop method. I would suggest the questions be sent to the PL because that's where the leadership lies within the patrol method. If everyone is avoiding their PL's then their authority is being usurped by the SPL. Maybe the SPL should be taught the phrase, "You need to be discussing this with your PL". This way the PL's actually lead their patrols as they are supposed to be doing rather than having to turn everything over to the SPL to do. If the PL's are running their patrols correctly, the SPL and other troop officers can be available to assist them in making sure things as a combined whole are running properly according to the way the PL's have planned it. If not, then just have the SPL do it all the way a SM does it in an adult led troop method unit. A boy led troop method should be no different. However if the unit is patrol method, then the PL's should be running their patrols. If communication and delegation are important, it is probably a good idea to design the structure/chain of leadership according to the design of the unit.

Secretary, like in sitting at a desk typing things. Stosh

Exactly, why did they wear suits when they went to an interview for a job that allowed them to wear jeans and a t-shirt? There's a message here that has absolutely nothing to do with productivity, it's attitude, pure attitude. Stosh

OBSOLETE????? My boys love it. I take it you never had a Captain Midnight decoder ring as a kid? Kids love code and signaling. Stosh

I'll wade in on this one. When one goes to church all gussied up in their "Sunday-go-ta-meetin'" clothes they "feel" different than they do for the rest of the week. When people at work wear business casual or have a jeans day, they "feel" different than they do normally. There's something about clothing that directly affects our perceptions of ourselves and how we imagine people's perception of us. If a scout puts his uniform on and emotionally reacts to it, it says something about the next time he wears it. Because of the short time period between when I get off work and when the scout meeting so my g-friend and I always go out to dinner. I wear my uniform because of the time constraint. Over the past 15 years, I have had a number of people come up and thank me. The first time I thought it was because they thought I was military, but one lady just smiled and said she could read the BSA over my pocket. I always wear the full uniform, with one exception. When I took my swim test for camp, I did put on a swimsuit for the occasion. 3 of my boys commented that it was the first time they had ever seen me in something other than full uniform. I did wear a BSA t-shirt at Philmont but had my uniform shirt and necker along so I could dress for dinner every evening. With that being said, I hear of scouters who don't wear neckers, don't wear full uniform, don't wear uniform at events were alcohol might be served, don't wear uniform.... (fill in the blank). Is it any wonder we have difficulty getting our boys to wear the uniform when we are too embarrassed to wear it ourselves. As adult leaders I had always assumed we were to lead. Maybe we ought to reevaluate where we are leading our boys with the uniform method of scouting. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Denial is not really denial.... On my first national reenacting event I attended it was August the temps were 90+ and we were all in wool uniforms for three days and that meant we were all pretty ripe. I didn't really notice it too much, but kept my mouth shut. Back at the hotel aftewards on the way back home, we were trying to decide who got the shower first. I "won"!!! When I came out of the bathroom, I quickly realized that I really hadn't. Once I got cleaned up the rest of the guys were TERRIBLE. But the real winner was the guy that got to the showers LAST. As stinky as that boy smells, he does not realize it! He will truthfully deny it all day long. Work a deal with the boy. After the next really heavy workout day when all the boys are extra "savory". Have that boy clean up first and explain to him the dynamics of the situation. If he realizes how it works, he may come to terms with his problem. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Full uniform expectation is an acceptable goal in Scouting. It doesn't mean that if a boy doesn't have a uniform or only half a uniform that he can't participate in the program. I only expect full uniform and well presented uniform as much as one might have, i.e. if you have a shirt it should have a council patch and numerals. I find that every boy if he wants a full uniform can afford one if he puts it on his b-day list and Christmas list, goes out and rakes lawns and shovels walks, etc. It's an issue of priorities. But if the expectation is full uniform, peer pressure does go a long way to helping it along. Stosh

I guess I'm doing it all wrong. But then again so's the council camp where I'm heading to this summer. They have the new scout program that works on T-FC while at the same time the boys earn Swimming and First Aid. Go figure. I then corral a MB council of the boys' choice and do a "fun" MB as well. Stosh

Beavah, One has to remember from your unfortunate experience, one must offer one's seat to a LADY. With a verbal exchange you received, it was obvious courtesy and lady-like manners were not part of her makeup. Courteous people give and take courtesy graciously. At an age where AARP is hounding my steps, I still offer my seat to ladies and the elderly. If people have a problem with that, well, they have the problem, not me. Stosh

WB does not hold any patent on Turk's Head knots. Anyone can have a TH knot made of any material of any color they wish. 4 strand TH knot is the basis for the BSA generic metal slide. TH woggles are pretty nice and yes, if one wishes to weave a 2nd or 3rd color (Red, White, & Blue) into a 3 strand TH they look great. I use Parachute cord and if one gets white, it can be dyed with a nylon dye to any color. Parachute cord also fuses off very nicely and the ends of the knot can be sewn together inside and out of sight. For those who don't want to mess with the multiple weaving of the threads, make a 2-3' thread of each color, sew together at one end and then tie the knot once. The nice thing about the TH knot is that it can be worn horizontal and vertical. Vertical with a square knot in the ends of the necker make it impossible to lose the woggle. Stosh

I wonder why a 3-star general with dignitaries in his office doesn't wear the same uniform that a PFC does in the field? I'm also thinking the blazer and dress pants might in fact cost more than uniform pants and a tan shirt. I do believe that the uniform for SM's and adults has/was traditionally been different than that of the boys. Stosh

I have been toying with the idea of going with a parlimentary type of elections. So often we elect/appoint boys to a position and then they sit around doing nothing for the next 6 months to a year. This sometimes occurs in the NSP that has boys that may not really know each other and who may get elected only by popularity. I have a troop of 80% new scouts so it would be easy to make a shift in "tradition" at this point. What it would mean would be that any boy can call for a vote of confidence in their leadership and if they aren't doing the job, they can be replaced (by vote) with someone who will do the job. It promotes responsibility, accountability, functionality, and no lame-duck leaders depriving others of leadership opportunities. I really don't see any intrinsic value in assigning a 6-mo or 1-yr term when the possibility of having a non-functioning leader hanging around collecting his POR requirement on paper. I remember in other organizations (i.e. band) where anyone in the section can challenge the next higher ranked musician and move up towards first chair anytime you wished to challenge and take it before the jury. Well, if there's a boy who really wants to be PL and the existing PL is just taking up space waiting for his POR tenure to complete so he can advance, I say, let the other boy challenge the system that allows for incompetency. If this seems like a disruption in a stable system, just imagine the disruption of a do-nothing SPL for a whole year! Stosh

Oh lighten up! LOL! I know what Knight meant and I think it was great that he had such a positive response from one of the new kids. The really nice thing about it at that age they really mean what they say! Last week we had Webelos visit from a Pack not expecting to join up with us. One boy came up and said he had a good time and would like to join up. I gave him a registration form and figured when he got home he would probably just change his mind and go to another troop with his buddies. Nope. He came back with his older brother and both of them are joining. If I wasn't a SM I'd be a Webelos DL! That age is great to work with. By the way, Knight, when things get tough and you get frustrated and things aren't going your way and the parents are **** ing about everything, just remember the impact you really make on the boys. You are correct, it is just these kinds of things that make it worthwhile. Stosh

Old course '93 Don't remember much about the course - 3 I'm the only one of my patrol left in scouting - 0 Got my beads in the mail - 0 Working my ticket was two great years in scouting, had so much fun I repeated it. - 10 Stosh

My favorite grace is: Good gravy, good meat, Good God, let's eat. Amen. Stosh

Gee Knight, with this being his only weekend he'd been on, what was he comparing it to? :^) Stosh

Sephrina, Your point is well taken. If one knows there's going to be some expense coming up, it would be rather "TRIFTY" and prudent to make plans and save up for it. You are obviously seting a pretty good example for your son, he will gain an extremely valuable lesson. I have gone out on a limb and said the cost for E-Bay pants are $15. If I have to bid over to get the size, condition I need for a boy, it's just the cost of doing business. And I spend just as much now on scouting as I did when I had a boy in the pack/troop. I am aware that we don't live in a cheap world, but I make plans ahead of time to accommodate the unexpected. I have also found that the more value one invests in something the more it is worth to them in the long run. Keep it in mind that for the cost of an X-Box and a couple of games I can outfit more than half my troop! :^) Stosh

The "can't afford a uniform" argument is bogus. A savvy QM with a little scrounging can put together a uniform where the most expensive part is the patches. I'm sitting right now with a pile of pants next to my computer that cost me $3/each. Ok, ok, that's less than a pack of cigarettes, but hey! that might be a tad more than a single tap too. Generally I pay $10-$15 for pants, $5 for belt, and $5-$10 for shirt INCLUDING SHIPPING on E-Bay. Yes, it takes some time, some diligence, and a little luck, but it can happen. With patches, I can generally get a boy completely outfitted for what most people pay for shirt alone at the Scout Shop. If one doesn't want to go through all the hassle of E-Bay, just call up the parents of the scout that just quit and ask if the uniform is for sale. Most of these uniforms have the patches and are stored away for whatever reason in some closet going to waste. If the boy quits, surely these items don't make much of a treasured memory keepsake. This is especially true for the Webelos boys that buys the tan shirt and then never cross over. The parents can put the old blue uniform together as a momento and sell you the tan. A Scout is Thrifty. Stosh

1961 Printing, Copyright 1940: To earn the Merit Badge for Signaling*: you must: 1) Make an electric buzzer outfit, wireless, blinker, or other signaling device. 2) Send and receive in the International Morse Code, by buzzer or other sound device, a complete message of not less than 35 words, at a rate of not less than 35 letters per minute. 3) Demonstrate an ability to send and receive a message in the International Morse Code by wigwag and by blinker or other light signaling device at a rate of not less than 20 letters per minute. 4) Send and receive by Semaphore Code at the rate of not less than 30 letters per minute. 5) Know the proper application of the International Morse Code and Semaphore Codes; when, where, and how they can be used to best advantage. 6) Discuss briefly various other codes and methods of signaling which are in common use. * A Second Class Scout must first qualify for First Class Scoutcraft requirement 6. Stosh

I think it's time for everyone, CO, CO Rep, CC, SM, Committee, Leadership, and parents all in the same room. Have an outside party (maybe the UC) "chair" the proceedings and let everyone have a chance to express their concerns about the situation. Keep the proceedings focused on the welfare of the troop and not on personalities. Let someone with good group dynamic skills and conflict management skills referee. Good luck! Stosh