Stosh

If the PL's are working with their patrols as they should be, and unless the SPL is running around interfering in everything, he should have plenty of time during the meeting to visit with the SM. Stosh

I wasn't offering any approval or disapproval, I was only commenting on the fact that as we make up things as we go along we may or may not have the blessing of BSA. If one goes and has a "class B" t-shirt made using BSA logo on it printed by an unauthorized vendor, one begins to get into some rather grey areas where one's footing becomes tenuous. I really don't care what other troops may or may not accept as "class B", but if the BSA doesn't have a "class B" it doesn't make much difference what that "uniform" consists of. But it does make sense to be aware of trademark and copyright infractions. If my boys take their uniform off at a scouting activity, i.e. to cook or clean up camp, it is nice if they have a BSA t-shirt underneath, even if it's just like everyone else's in the troop. It's a troop t-shirt then, not a Boy Scout "class B" uniform. I would not be presumptuous to think or teach that BSA remotely officially approves of this practice in any form. When the BSA comes out with a "field uniform" and provides an inspection guide for it, then and only then, will BSA have a second, less formal, uniform. Stosh

The BSA offers one uniform. Anything other than that is not a BSA uniform. If one wishes to create their own uniform, it makes no difference what is chosen. Of one wishes to all wear pajamas with a neckerchief and call it their "class B" uniform, so be it. Why does one feel it necessary to get the approval of others for the rules one makes up on their own. Make up any "uniform" imaginable. Call it a "class B" uniform, but remember there is no such thing as a BSA "class B" uniform. If one needs to know what a BSA uniform looks like, refer to the literature of BSA. Next we're going to have to deal with "class B" hiking boots and "class B" underwear. And yes the Brown Shoe Company used to make uniform shoes for scouts in 4 different styles. If one is worried about having the boys all recognizable when not in uniform, may I suggest lime-green face paint. You'll know your boys from at least a quarter-mile away. :^) I think National is discussing an official BSA underwear, but they haven't decided on olive, tan or cammo. The briefs committee and the boxer committee is just beginning negotiations. Stosh

If one has 15 groups, there should be 15 activity stations. Shotgun start and every 10 minutes the bugler play a tune for everyone to advance to the next station. Otherwise there will be extra groups standing around each one waiting 10 minutes to start adding 10 minutes onto the total length of the activity. With 15 groups @ 10 minutes each gives one at least 150 minutes which is 2.5 hours. Adding on a group every 10 minutes would mean 3 groups add a half hour. Groups of 10 are large and expect some to stand around. 9 people helping start a fire is a free-for-all as would 9 people tending to a sprained ankle. With the theme Be Prepared, all a station would need is an adult to man it with instructions on what the scouts are supposed to do. If you can get 30 adults/scouts to run the stations you could cut your groups in half and double your stations. One would have 75 boys (5 boys per group) rotating in groups of 15 stations in two separate loops. Do the boys have ropes to tie knots? If not they can't pass the station. Shoe laces etc. problem solving would come into play. Fire starting? Do they have matches? Do they have neckerchiefs for first aid? etc. The station does not need to provide any of this equipment if one sticks strictly to the theme that has been chosen. Add stations that don't require equipment i.e. Explain the Buddy Sstem in light of the new requirements, Scout trivia, hiking knowledge, backpack packing, uniform inspection (Be Prepared, do they have a scout in full uniform?), etc. Stosh

Hmmm... And what's wrong with the official scout uniform for outdoor activities? I've always worn mine. It wears like iron, cleans up quickly and after 15 years I've had to resew a sleeve cuff that came undone and patched my pants on a cargo pocket. Other than that they look a little worn/faded but still look like scout pants. Half way through summer camp, the boys' shirts did look a little dingy so we stopped by a laundromat and tossed in all the boys' shirts. Came out looking nice, neat and ready to go. The patches for patrols, rank, size and POR made it a snap to identify each boy's shirt. I've never felt the need to substitute anything for the official uniform and still feel I'm dressed as a Scout. Used shirts are cheap on E-Bay and if one needs a "work/activity" uniform they can get a second shirt, put the minimum patches on it and you're ready to go. So to answer your question, the Official Scout Uniform is the ideal outdoor scout uniform. Stosh

It's rather unfortunate that the younger generation has no idea how to do these older traditions. At the Blue Gold last week, one of the boys was trying to make a paper airplane out of the place mat. He was struggling and I asked him if he needed some assistance from an expert on the subject. The other boys began making airplanes to prove who the real expert was. A wide variety of planes were produced and unfortunate for them my design was from a Asian origami expert and my plane out flew all the rest. The rest of the time was spent in me showing all the boys how to make the perfect paper airplane. Was this in any modern BSA program? Heck no! But we had a ton of fun. I sure am glad I never grew up. Before I left I made the traditional paper swan and put it in the middle of the table. Always leave them begging for more. :^) Same holds true for knots, flags, etc. Anything that was once made by hand and now can't be mass produced or electronic is fair game for a lot of patrol fun. The next challenge? 6 rubber bands, fire them off one at a time accurately with two hands the fastest. Gotta get down in the 2 second category to even come close to making a good challenge. :^) Stosh

The use of servant leadership in the BSA is not an attempt to replace anything in the scout program up to that point. What Greenleaf identified was not oriented to any one field of leadership, i.e. business. He has chapters in his book that deal with religious, trusteeships, military, and youth organizations. The business world jumped on the bandwagon only after they began to see the merits of this type of leadership. BP would not have had a problem with any of it. As a matter of fact his vision for Scouting was based on it. All the dynamics of duty to God and Country, helping others at all times, etc. all fit into the legitimate dynamics of servant leadership with no problem at all. As a matter of fact they function better under it. On the other hand, heavy handed, top-down leadership styles of delegation, directive, orders, etc. all are counterproductive and often times disruptive to the goals of the scouting program. Teams that have a dictator for a leader seldom win games and the participants seldom have fun. I used the business model only because most people recognize its references better than say another organization. I think Padilan's problem lies in the dynamics of a leadership model that does not allow for the validity of the individual's leadership unless he has a patch on his shirt. All the authority lies in the hands of a few "running the show" rather than in the work of the team on the working level of the unit i.e. all those that don't have patches. Padilan was hoping for a "promotion" into a troop level leadership position and was disappointed when he didn't get it. My scouts would be disappointed more with not being reelected a PL. That's where the leadership is focused and that's where the boy can really show what he's capable of. Each member of his patrol, properly developing the dynamics of servant leadership themselves, allows them the expertise of eventually legitimately lead a patrol of their own. Serving others and being served at the same time by others around oneself is what teamwork is really all about. Any time one sees a boy needing help and another scout "coming to help him" is demonstrating servant leadership. (Help other people at all times) While BP always referred to Scouting as a Game, didn't mean that everything has to be fun, exciting, or even interesting. To know what to do in an emergency and save someone's life is not fun, not exciting and emotionally disruptive to one's own life. Yet, BP would be the first to say that's what a scout is getting prepared for. Helping other people at all times isn't always a game, it can be difficult, demanding, and just plain hard work. Boys who have mastered the concept of servant leadership then can take on the support/serving roles of troop officers. They assist the PL's and their team members as they lead by example what service to the patrol means and help to coordinate the patrols and combine their talents to tackle bigger processes by working/serving together with multiple patrols. And Kudu, just remember, who holds the real power when it comes time to telephone call the Senior Vice-President and CEO of a multi-billion dollar international corporation and see how long it takes you to get by his secretary. :^) Stosh

I do believe that as of Pope John XXIII's tenure that Vatican II indicates that Catholics are encouraged to attend any and all ecumenical worship services to show solidarity in the Christian faith. If I remember back far enough that happened some time in the early to mid-1960's. With that being said with the Catholic Mass being celebrated every day some place or another, i.e. whereever there is a priest, one can fulfill their obligation any day of the week if it's really that important to them, which it should be. I do realize there are regional variances in the teachings of the church, but one must be sensitive to the needs of their unit members. Like the LDS churches maybe there should be "just-for-Catholics" units so they too can leave Saturday night and be able to catch Sunday services at home. Of course that means the boys will never be able to attend Philmont because all treks are over 7 days and unless one's unit leader is a priest, it isn't going to work out very well. Those units that have the luxury of being all one faith, there is no problem with making the appropriate adjustments. However, if the unit is a religious mixed-bag, then the process become a little more difficult. I'm sure that the 7th Day Adventists will feel left out if everyone heads home on Saturday night or Sunday morning, and they have no one to camp with when they show up on their weekend day that's open. A little sensitivity and tolerance goes a long way to show the boys that such diversity does not mean division and with proper understanding from the local clergy I'm sure things could be worked out for the benefit of the boys. At camporees and other outings, the normal push is to get back as soon as they can on Sunday anyway. Unless it's a small parish, they usually have a late morning service within a few miles the boys could all attend before heading home. It might mean getting up and going earlier in the morning and adding an hour on the trip time home, but I'm sure none of the parents would complain because the boys all stopped to go to church. Stosh

From Stosh:>> Simply doing the bidding of the adults isn't functional leadership. I find it difficult to try and explain myself any more clear than this. To have the adults directing, orchestrating, leading, delegating, etc. all of the functions of the troop will in fact remove any responsibility on the part of the youth to develop leadership of their own. If one wishes to have functional leadership on the part of the scouts, they have to be given the responsibility AND authority to decide, direct, orchestrate, lead, and delegate the activity of the patrols. If they don't or if someone else(like adults) does it, the potential leaders will have missed their opportunity to lead. My apologies to anyone who thinks that as childish philosophy, so be it. If it is offensive, one may wish to reconsider the approach they have towards their definition of adult vs. boy-led units. If one wishes to be helpful (i.e. refer to Scout Law) take on whatever support role they feel most comfortable with. If one ends up the troop "buffoon".

I do realize that there are some differences between Scouting and Venturing, but as a Civil War reenactor, I normally wear a real gun and sword when I am with my boys as a leader and when they are wearing the real gun and sword, I just carry my real military assault rifle with bayonet. :^) Paintball, lasers and Halo is for the whimps. And before anyone complains, it's all ok with National and the fact that I have mounted cavalry with swords and guns to back me up and if that's not enough firepower, I have scouts manning 6 and 12 lb. Napoleon cannon as well. When the boys do WW I and II we can toss in gregades, M-1 rifles, 45-Colt automatics, a couple of armored personnel carriers and Maxim machine guns. Never having to grow up is a great thing. As far as National approval is concerned, anything within the hobby's scope and safety is approved by them. Is it contrary to the PC image of Scouting? Maybe, but we get a lot of boys into scouting with a program like this. Yes, our unit, working with Scout Troops have had 6 Eagle Scouts pass through our ranks in the past 9 years. It took us over 2 years working with National to set up an standard for them that would allow scouts to participate in this type of hobby. We found them to be very easy to work with and understanding when it came to the specifics of how this was all done. Now after 9 years, I see that some of the specifics are now finding their way into the GTSS literature. Whereas the boys cannot own a large bore artillery piece, with national certification in safety, they can all fall in on the piece and operate it with the blessings of National. These are far more serious issues than whether or not one can aim a laser weapon at another person or play a war-video game. Once the Scouts get over their anti-military stance they adopted in the early 1970's following the Vietnam War, things may in fact return somewhat to the dyanmics of military leadership that the BSA program is based on in the first place, but isn't publicized as such. Stosh

As I have expressed in other posts, I do not promote a "top down" approach to leadership -- SM passes information to the SPL who passes to the PL who passes to the patrol members. To me this is adult led troop method. Instead the highest ranking officer in my troop is the PL. He runs his patrol independent of the others. He teaches, plans, and runs his program with his 6-7 boys. Below these PL's are the troop officers who support him in his patrol work. If he needs equipment for an outing, the QM is there to assist. If he needs to coordinate his program with that of another patrol, the SPL is the go-between. If he needs coaching in teaching, advancement, etc, he is supported by the TG. If any of the troop officers need guidance, support, assistance, they have the adult leadership under them for support. With the situation described by Padilan, I think he would do well thinking of himself as a person of support to others regardless of his "elected position". In an adult led troop method program these POR's are for show and not necessarily very functional anyway. Simply doing the bidding of the adults isn't functional leadership. If one wishes to be helpful (i.e. refer to Scout Law) take on whatever support role they feel most comfortable with. If one ends up the troop "buffoon" because they are always willing to do the dirty work that no one else wants to do, they'll never get elected to a POR, but they will learn servant leadership far better than anyone else in the group. When that person ages out of scouting, that troop will suffer a major hit in leadership because no one will want to fill the shoes of a "buffoon" and many of the necessary jobs of the troop will collapse. 90% of the work is done by 10% of the people and I'll guarantee those 10%ers are seldom shown on the leadership roster, but they are the true leaders. Don't allow oneself to be fooled into thinking the boys don't know what's really going on. Stosh

On the other hand I am lead to believe that the internet forum of Scouting IS the place to discuss any and all 12 points of the Scout Law, not just the ones we feel most comfortable with. We have a POR in each troop who is the Chaplain's Aide. This person could very easily put together a 15-20 minute time on Sunday AM to direct everyone's personal attention to their God. It could be through scripture readings, Old Testament if there are any Hebrew scouts in attendence, silence, meditation, or comments from the heart. A time for any specific Scout's worship could also be addressed at this time. As for the 7th Day Adventists/Baptist, Hebrews and Muslims, this could be done on Saturday AM as well. A scout will never be harmed by too much of the 12th point of the Scout Law. If nothing else, this is a good place to start a Scout's education on tolerance of others rather than making up stupid zero-tolerance rules. A Scout is Reverent is just as important as a Scout is Clean. If one is going to march the boys off to the showers at summer camp, they had better be prepared (pun intended) to march them off to a time of reverence as well. Stosh

Hmmm, I wonder why the Scout leader who doesn't go strictly by the book shouldn't get kicked out by the training police. Maybe we ought to do that with boys when they break any of the Scout Laws. After all these laws aren't guidelines and no variance should be tolerated. It's gonna get lonely by the campfire. Stosh

Tough call Padilan but having a POR patch on a shirt does not make one a leader and not having a POR patch doesn't mean one isn't. When I need someone to function in a leadership role, I seldom look for patches, I look for the scouts I can count on. Is that fair? Probably not, but if one wants to lead they are motivated by factors other than patches or credit for advancement. Eventually those around will figure this out and the votes will probably fall differently next time. If not, don't let others deprive one of an opportunity to lead even when things don't go well for them. If one continues to lead through the tough times, it will be a piece of cake to get through the easy times. Making others look good, makes oneself look good as well. Stosh

It take but 5 minutes, 2-3 pins, 1 needle, a scissor and a spool of thread to teach a kid to sew his own patches on. One of the highest compliments I give to my boys when they do a good job of sewing the patch on is: "You sew like a girl!" It works for me, and they all get their patches on well before "mom has time to do it". Stosh

Sea Scouts are not the only scouts authorized to wear military uniforms. Many reenacting crews do as well. There are enough of them to make reference to the crews involved with artillery pieces to necessitate the documentation of guidelines for these groups. Stosh

So, if the methods are not required, the boy has only a uniform shirt, and his troop was adult led troop method, does that mean he doesn't get his Eagle?

I have three simple rules for Scouting, 1) Safety First, 2) Look and act like a Scout, and 3) Have fun! When I see a boy breaking rule #3 I have a chat about it and it makes for a good excuse to sit and visit about why things don't seem to be going well for the boy. It makes a good excuse for intervention early in the process. Stosh

It'll never happen. First of all it's difficult enough to get volunteers and if we have them jumping through hoops will mean less leaders and thus less units and less opportunities for the boys. BSA national will never allow the drop in adult leadership by making training mandatory. Also from the reaction I have received on the forum, it is obvious that even with all the training I have had from Cubbing through Venturing, Masters of Scouting University through Woodbadge, that such training doesn't guarantee a quality leader. :^) Training assists the leader, it doesn't make the leader. Stosh

This is exactly right, but then it begs the question of who draws the line on the definition. If the definition, intent, purpose of bullying is vague at best, and the BSA sets a policy, where does it draw the line. Like the zero-tolerance policies so in vogue today, I would hate to see a boy drummed out of scouting in the same way a kindergarten kid gets a 3 day suspension in school because his mom put a table knife in with his birthday cake treat so the teacher could cut the pieces. If this sounds ridiculous to anyone, maybe a sense of caution be used before setting down policies that can in fact turn more kids away from scouting than it attracts. After all if we are supposed to be tolerant of others, how does one justify zero-tolerant policies. A "Each case needs to be looked at looked at on its own." will not fly with a written-in-stone policy of any sort. Tough issue to deal with and bring fairness and justice to the table. Stosh

The boys and I were discussing how to incorporate all the new boys into 3 NSP's now that B/G's are over. The discussion ran the full range of ideas, but the boys were specific in not using certain techniques. No choosing sides for example because someone always gets picked last, etc. What they came up with was all the boys could pick a buddy so that no matter what happened they would always be with their biggest buddy. Then the duo's would draw out of a hat the numbers 1, 2, or 3 and that's the patrol they would be in. We have 3 groups all of which are odd numbered and of different sizes. The boys decided that after everyone paired, the three "leftovers" would in similar process havae a separate drawing of a 1, 2 or 3. Their "buddy" would be the PL and he would be the first APL in the rotation of the boys through leadership training the first year. The boys felt that would ease some of the downer feeling of not having a buddy to pick. I think that boys of that age are aware of the emotional needs of each other and if given the opportunity to address them, they can come up with some pretty creative ideas. Stosh

Why does this boy have to advance? Why can't he just try to tie knots when the other boys tie theirs. Why can't he play in the shallow end of the pool with a lifejacket on? Why can't he still go on a hike when the other boys are going to get hiking merit badge. Why can't he tie up a bandage when the other boys do First Aid? What I'm hearing is a lot of adults wanting/needing this boy to advance to be successful. Maybe him just having fun with his friends is enough. He gets to wear the uniform, he gets to eat with the boys, he gets to participate as he is able in any and all activities. And by the way, when he does learn to tie his shoes, check it out, it may in fact be a double-slip square knot he has tied. Double-slip or not, it's still a square knot. That gets him the Scouter rank and you're on your way. Be patient, this kid will lead adults into a whole new world of understanding if they will only follow. Stosh

Gee Eamonn, with that being said, where do those boys learn such bullying tactics? From their parents who are always saying, "Do it my way OR ELSE..." I don't always see giving directions even in an intimidating manner is bullying. Eagle732's son expressed it the best when he indicates there's a tone of meanness to the demand. And yet there is not one SM on this forum that would think nothing of using extreme intimidation at certain times. i.e. safety precaution for the welfare of another individual. This is ok because it does not have what Eagle732's son indicates - meanness. Stosh

My boys know that full uniform is "expected". I stated it on day one and then offer to help buy pants on E-bay, etc. We had a Blue/Gold banquet to welcome new Webelos yesterday. I had no idea what the boys would be wearing. What I got was: Boy #1: Six months ago Shirt, no necker. Yesterday, full-uniform! Boy #2: Six months ago lost shirt and necker had no idea where it was. Yesterday, Shirt and necker. Boy #3: Six months ago didn't own a uniform. Yesterday, still doesn't own a uniform, but showed up with borrowed shirt and necker for the banquet. Boy #4: couldn't make the BG, six months ago shirt, belt and necker, as of last week, full uniform. Boy #5: couldn't make the BG, six months ago shirt, lost necker, as of last week, full uniform Boy #6: couldn't make the BG, six months ago no uniform, as of 2 months ago, full uniform 3 boys from the Webelos cross-over had their waist/inseam measurements and asked me to bid on E-bay for them. Somehow they had heard that we were a full-uniform troop and wanted to be sure they were ready as soon as possible. Next week we have another Blue/Gold and the Webelos from this week were worried they wouldn't be ready for next week's program. I assured them they would look fine just the way they are until we can work out the details. It's kinda nice to have the boys actually excited about getting the full uniform. By the way, all the Webelos that crossed over were all in tan. Stosh

A hammer doesn't work on all nails. Sometimes special needs need something more than by the book BSA. The program doesn't work for everyone. Patches are a staple of the BSA program, but where in BSA literature do we find any where where sewing is taught? It's nice to think that if we follow the instructions everyone will be successful in the program, but for some reason I have always felt that one-size-fits-all kind of scouting isn't all that productive. Stosh