Stosh

I was kind of surprised at the last roundtable I attended. When I suggested the patrols compete at the camporee, it was unanimous that because the camporees are so poorly attended, the troops just provide one combined "patrol" for the competitions because no one patrol can get enough people to show up. This practice didn't really surprise me, it was attitude of general acceptance as being normal to scouting that bothered me more. How much patrol method scouting can be created when the boys show up, grab the first flag they come to out of the trailer and that's who they're going to be for the weekend? Stosh

As little as possible..... I have degrees in Computer Science, Business Administration, Music, Psychology and Ministry (yes, I am ordained). I have held EMT certification in two states and nationally. I am currently working for a international Fortune 500 business as an "administrative assistant", i.e. secretary. I earn just enough money to pay the bills and work just enough to keep my weekends from running together. I have had 8 years of scouting experience as a youth, 2 as a professional and 19 as an adult leader in all aspects of scouting except Tigers. I am currently a Crew Advisor and a Scoutmaster. I am also a adult leader of my church youth group as well as president/captain of a Civil War reenacting group. Stosh

Are you ready to take the reins? The leadership that is there now might be willing to hand it over to you. At least you can actually see what's going on and may have a better chance of fixing things. Stosh

I'm with Kudu and Hops, I prefer the patrol cooking in campsite. It fulfills FC #4 requirement for 5 boys in each patrol, builds teamwork, and the boys can never complain about the food. The camp gives $50 discount and then doesn't provide any food. This way our site can always have PBJ's ready, coffee pot on 24/7 and all the amenities of life right when you need it. I have found out over the years that it is pretty much a crap-shoot when it comes to the food. Sometimes it's ok, sometime's it's great and sometimes I just go without. It all just depends on whether or not the camp hires a cook or just has staff re-heating up institutional foods. Having worked for an institutional food outfit, I can tell by Sunday night whether or not we're going to be eating well or not for the week. If the boys plan their own menus, prep and cook their own meals, I know well in advance what the food's going to be like. I find there is a lot less waste of food if the boys are the one's making the plans/menus, cooking and calling the shots. Stosh

I've had my uniform shirt and pants now for 15 years. A few patches, re-sews along the way, but still in pretty good shape. I figure when I need a new one, I'll just get a USA made one off of E-Bay. In another 15 years, I'm going to be too old to worry too much about it anymore. Stosh

Our council requires an advancement report to get patches and I've never heard of anyone here complaining about it. The instant recognition thingy seems to have been left behind in the Cubbing years for the most part in our neck of the woods. My boys earn their rank and then receive it and card at the next Court of Honor. The COH's are indicated well in advance, are coordinated with major rank inititives i.e. summer camp, and if the boys have to wait a few weeks, it's not that big of a deal. Even after they get the badge, it may take a week or two, or three or four to get them sewn on. We do not overly emphasize rank advancement as a whole in our troop so it doesn't influence much of the other parts of our program. I presently have 3 boys PL's of three patrols and one is Scout, one is First Class and one is Life. They all happen to all be within 1 year of each other in age. Rank is personal accomplishment, POR is patrol/troop functionality, our boys know the difference. Rank can wait to be recognized, POR cannot. Stosh

I guess we didn't go to such great lengths to try and maintain our menu items. If they would get hurt by freezing, i.e. raw eggs, we just didn't take them. As far as fuel goes, the winter program at Spearhead in Wisconsin... no hot food until supper and then it's a can of Dinty Moore heated up in boiling water which boils for at least a hour before it's hot enough to serve and nothing ever gets eaten hot anyway no matter what one has for eating utinsels. I usually take a plastic thermal cup along that I don't bother to clean because I don't plan on a second meal in it, otherwise a tin cup serves as cooking and eating and cleans up quickly and safely. As far as cold weather cooking, the amounts of fuel used to heat big items is a problem as you have said. But cooking in a messkit requires far less fuel than trying to maintain a #12 Dutch oven. Cooking small quantities separately doesn't take as much fuel nor time as cooking one big large item. And as you have indicated, if other activities are a higher priority than eating well, then that's important as well. Everyone has priorities and everyone has to make choices. I for one don't always have the opportunity to eat prize winning meals on every outing, but I have figured out eating well even if circumstances are against me. There's always a better mousetrap out there, I just haven't found it yet. :^) Stosh

Legal and moral are two totally subjective issues. What is legal today might be illegal tomorrow and what is moral today might be immoral tomorrow. It all depends on the whims of human nature. To place personal judgment on certain ideas, activities or persons is discrimination only if it doesn't agree with your own personal set of morals and legalities. Thus people aggrigate towards people of similiar moral and legal values that they like and point fingers at those who don't agree with them and cry foul. Once those efforts become institutionalized it becomes a problem for a greater number of people. Does it mean that the individual changes just become others have made the situation change? Nope. It's just that they in turn become the ostricized. That's why Scouting has become a target, they adhere to a different standard as a group than others do. It's neither a moral or legal issue, it's just that scouting doesn't adhere to everyone's sense of morality equally. But then again, no group ever has. Stosh

The selection of menu items is important when contemplating the temperature and type of activity. Boiling water to make omelets in a bag at zero degrees will be interesting because by morning all your eggs will be rock solid anyway. A stove isn't needed for every scout to use a messkit, they can cook over a patrol fire. Second Class requirement #2g indicates that all scouts should be able to handle that. If it's zero degrees out, there should be plenty of snow to wipe out your messkit and a few minutes over the fire will sanitize it completely. I've been using that method of cleaning with my cast iron cookware for years and it comes up clean every time. It'll work for stainless steel and aluminum as well. I steer my kids away from plastic because food borne pathegens do so much better in the scratches of plastic. It usually doesn't take much brainstorming to come up with creative ideas on how to cook well in camp with least amount of trouble and the maximum amount of food safety. Okpik may not feel cooking and cleaning in harsh conditions is important and for the most part the boys probably won't starve to death on a weekend outing, but I teach my boys to cook and eat well in all kinds of weather conditions in a variety of different settings using many different kinds of purchased and homemade utinsils. This diversity of skills allows the boys to be self-sufficient in any and all situations. I have eaten at Dutchoven feasts and I have eaten the meager rations of a Philmont trek. Needless to say, the food offered at each of those activities varied quite a bit. So I'd agree with you, eggs in a paper bag won't do well at zero degrees, but hung over an open fire in a tin can would do just fine. When you're done, use your official jackknife to cut the bottom out, push in, flatten and pack out to be recycled with no cleanup necessary.

Why not do a do-it-yourself trip? Then it doesn't make any difference where one goes, it's all great territory. We have gone several times and found that it is way less expensive do do our own thing. The planning, organizing and such is just as much fun as the trip. Each time we have gone we have covered 50+ miles/8 days with plenty of portages and have always done our own planning, etc. Stosh

Hmmm, one has a pot of water, eggs, cheese, onions that kids don't like anyway and plastic bags. Toss the eggs in the water in the shell. Hard boil them, drag them out hand 1 or 2 to the kid along with some string cheese and he'll be happy. Not only that one doesn't have a stupid plastic bag to add to the landfill. Otherwise toss in a paper bag, do on the fire and burn the bag when done. Still no stupid plastic bag to add to the landfill. Toss in the mess kit having done up the bacon, make scrambled, add cheese, onions, etc. fry for about 5-10 minutes, stirring if one wishes, eat, wipe out the frypan, sterilize over the fire, cool off and ... yep, you got it, no stupid plastic bag to add to the landfill. With leave no trace, wouldn't it be rather productive to teach methods of cooking that don't add stuff to landfills? Can't afford a messkit? Take a tin can, poke holes, put on a bale handle fasten to backpack. With this little instrument one can make oatmeal, boiled eggs, coffee, hot chocolate, etc. for breakfast, minute-rice, veggies, potatoes for lunch, and a multitude of other things for supper. Different sized cans produce nested sets and a #10 can can hold the whole shebang and double as a stove besides. If the can gets wrecked, make a new one. Total cost of one's mess kit? $0 When one is done with the can, it can be recycled. Stosh

Just because 3rd grade aged students cannot sit in on 5th grade classes does not make it age discrimination. Just because men can't go into women's bathroom does not make it sex discrimination. People have the right to associate with like-minded people without the intereference of outside groups or individuals. If one does not wish to associate with a certain group, not a problem, but please don't dictate to the group what they can and cannot do and then call it discrimination. Instead, feel free to advertise oneself as intolerant of others who are like minded and wish to associate as such. Better yet, form groups of like-minded individuals and fill up one's free time with more productive efforts. I am tolerant of Catholic churches restricting their membership to Catholics only. LDS same thing. I find nothing wrong with groups wishing to use Scouting to promote the welfare of their youth. Scouting was never intended to be all things to all people. One does not have a right to join any group that has different views and goals for their members than what they want. For obvious reasons to me, I would not want my child to join a group of athiests, what aI can't figure out is why would they would want their children to join a group of a different belief system? If one really were to sit down and analyze the situations one could easily conclude the intolerance oft times is not on the part of the group, but of the outsider who sees value in that group but because of self-restrictions are unable to justify involvement. Thus it's better to force the group to change to meet their standards than to change oneself. Intolerance is a double-edged sword. Ever notice that the biggest promoters of "diversity" i.e. schools, are also the ones with the zero-tolerance policies? Go figure. If a CO makes a choice, the individual can do so as well. Stosh

I have always viewed Scouting as a global movement, not just a BSA program. Who's to say that some of those Chinese shirts weren't made by former Scouts? Would that make a difference? It's getting to the point where one doesn't know the players anymore. Who'da thunk that a Toyota would be American made? and my Ford truck was Canadian? The world has changed. If one must have American made only, they're going to do a lot of walking. (Be careful where one buys the hiking boots though, you may end up walking barefoot.) :^) Stosh

You are absolutely correct, I was only pointing out some of the problems with so many exceptions to the rule that the rule doesn't make much sense. The number of adults should be kept to a minimum, parents tagging along to be with their boy(s)isn't necessary in a boy-led patrol method troop. Maybe one adult eating with each patrol should be sufficient. Those adults should "rotate" among the patrols so the SM can visit with each patrol over the course of an outing. Adults should of course tent off by themselves, but close enough for assisting any troop or PL's requesting assistance. If operating well, a boy-led patrol method troop doesn't need enough adults to have an adult patrol. The adults who are extras, usually find themselves with idle hands and a tendency to mess with the operation of the patrols. If they wish to come along, sit in a chair, drink coffee and observe the patrols do their own thing. Fine. If not, stay home. Stosh

The first question one must ask is: For whom is scouting being done? If it's for oneself, then it may not be so bad that they bow out. If it's for their own son, then maybe they could bow out too, but if it's for all the boys that cross one's path, then does it really make any difference which boys they are? I "followed" my own boy from Tiger through Star and one day he decided he was done. That was 12 years ago and it hasn't made much difference for me whether he was there or not. It would have been nice to see him Eagle, but it wasn't in the cards for him. I'm no longer even with his original troop and I still have a handful of young boys that need scouting and what it stands for. The council/district have asked me to take on a bigger role with them, but I regularly turn them down. I want to be with the boys. I want to enjoy their company, I want to watch them grow into adults and as a few have shown, work with them in continuing the units I work with. 10 years ago I started a Venturing Crew and now have charter members that are on my committee and serve as AA's. Find what you do best and stay there. Don't sweat the small stuff because it's mostly small stuff. After 20+ years of scouting, I still get excited about going to scout meetings! Step back, look at all the options, and simply do one little thing that would make you excited about it. Don't worry about anything or anyone except those who will benefit from your efforts. If they appreciate your time, your talent and interest, you're onto something good. Unless you gain something of value, you'll not have anything of value to pass onto the boys. If you get excited, the boys will too. Be yourself, find a troop that is struggling and would totally appreciate having you help them. Let the boys bring you healing and comfort. They have a way of doing that when you least expect it and you'll never find it if you're not with them. Stosh

I have taken boys on whitewater canoeing rivers for 15 years, but I also have stored away in the back of my mind when I was an Emergency Rescue Technician, pulling an unfortunate canoiest out of the river and hauling down to the morgue. Not an activity I wish to ever repeat, especially not with a boy that has placed his trust in my judgment to keep him safe. Stosh.

Suppose a patrol wishes to have the SM come over and have supper with them because they're trying out a new recipe? Sorry, he can't he's on the roster for the adult patrol and he's cooking over there. Supposed a patrol wishes to have an ASM come over and have supper with them because they're trying out his new recipe? Nope, can't do that either. Suppose a patrol wishes to have the chaperone parents of their members come over and have.... Nope! This is patrol-method boy led and no adult is allowed to "interfere". Hmmmm, but "Suppose a patrol wishes..." Nope. I have gone one plenty of outings where the adults mess up as needed or cooked individually. I do not have the boys make the SM's coffee under any circumstances, and I have demonstrated a new recipe on occasion when a patrol has asked for such assistance. Patrols operate independently, but they don't need to ask permission to have adults involved. Does this mean that when at summer camp with the mess hall there are no adult patrols? Stosh

"BSA Safety Afloat #3. You must be classified as a "swimmer" to participate in Scout activity afloat. (A Scout who has not passed the swimmer test may ride as a passenger in a rowboat or motorboat with an adult classified as a swimmer, or in a canoe, raft, or sailboat with an adult certified as a lifeguard or lifesaver by a recognized agency.)" If one plans on anything other than lake canoeing, they need to be prepared to canoe BEFORE they take to the river. Rivers are NOT the place to learn canoeing merit badges. Lifejackets are expected to be worn all the time, each canoe has an extra paddle and throwable vest/cushion with rope. Things to watch out for - wingdams, partially submerged rocks that can turn a canoe in the rapids, low hanging trees and limbs. A boy wedged between a low branch and canoe can be crushed if the current is strong enough. I have experienced canoes jammed on rocks and under trees that it has taken 3-4 adults to wrestle free. I have also seen canoes wrapped around trees never to be used again. If the boys sense a tipping, jump upstream, never downstream where the canoe can go over them, or capsize and trap. A river's current is the most dangerous thing and it is with you the whole trip. Add to it rocks, trees, etc. it doubles the danger. Whitewater canoeing is not for the faint-hearted, nor inexperienced. If one must use a certain river where there are fast moving waters, it is best to portage the inexperienced boys around those spots. An adult at the beginning and a second one at the end of every rapids in case the boys have difficulty. The best canoeist at the beginning and the strongest swimmer on the end. Make sure everything is tied in and waterproofed if needed. If one is kayaking, it would be wise to also wear a helmet. From your comments: "So yeahwere going canoeingany tips? Basic plan of action: Rent canoe, Canoe on river, And have fun! " It sounds like a recipe for disaster. It might be ok for adults, but not for boys. Basic plan of action: Get a rope Find a rock cliff, and have fun! Sorry, but if you don't have at least 3/4th of your crew seriously trained in canoeing, I wouldn't be taking a bunch a boys out on the river. That's just my opinion, but it's expressed after 15 years of whitewater canoeing. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

It's always easier to follow than it is to lead. Surely the boys would prefer sitting back and having someone else do all the leadership and they just jump in and grab the fun. For the most part only BSA actually expects and teaches leadership. Everything else is pretty much follow along. Stosh

Rent a 15 passenger van with a trailer hitch. Rent a trailer. Take 2 adults and maximize the number of boys on the trek. It's not a big deal. Check out Amtrack. Go by train. It's never a problem with rides/gear that way. Train stops right in Cimmeron and Philmont shuttles you to base camp. Again. 2 adults, rest boys. It's not a big deal. Making plans to have more than 2 adults in the group thereby making youth stay home? Now THAT IS a big deal. There's no excuse available to justify having boys stay home so that adults can go. Philmont is for BOYS, the 2 adults along are only for G2SS requirements! It's time for the SM to have his priorities adjusted by the DE and/or CE. It sounds like the good-old-boys are making plans for their father/son vacation at the expense of the troop. Stosh

You do not have to be nuts to take that job, but it does help. Stosh

MarkS, I don't think one can put the blame on the program or presentation of the program just because kids learn at differing speeds. What about an excellent program where the boy takes the season of football off from scouting? Or elects to be on the swim team sometime during that year. Taking off large chuncks of time will in fact have the scout not be successful in accomplishing FC in the first year and it has nothing to do with the speed of the scouts learning, nor the quality of the program being offered. There are many "what-if's" that play out during the course of the year that the boy, the troop, the family, don't always know about that play themselves out. For this reason, one has a PL and APL who keeps tabs on these lapses and makes arrangements for the patrol members to keep up with the program as best they can, and do follow up when things go awry. Problem-solving on the PL's part plays a big part in his leadership development. Stosh

Our troop uses Yahoo Groups. It sets up in seconds, has calendar, security, announcment sections, restrictive memberships, etc. Anyone can maintain the page with a minimum amount of tech savvy. Stosh

Vickie :^) I do Civil War reenacting with a Venturing Crew and all we carry is a cup and a canteen half to use as a fry pan for "roasting", and I didn't think that grinding the beans with the rifle butt would be appropriate on a BSA forum. We don't have flashlights and I think trying to grind with a candle might not work out too well. All in all, some of these historic reenactor people can put together a terrific cup of camp coffee! Some of the egg-coffee ladies have a pot on all weekend long and it's worth the long hike from military to civilian camp and back just for a cup! Stosh

Our adults eat with the troop officers. Duties are rotated in the group, sometimes an adult cooks, sometimes a boy does. Stosh