Stosh

Gotta love it BW! If your 14 year old daughter (Crew youth, freshman in high school) was hanging out with a 20 year old boy (Crew youth, sophomore in college) I'm sure the BSA rules will go right out the window! BSA doesn't operate in a vacuum. It operates in a world of different legal rules and when all is said and done and you're standing in front of a magistrate, the BSA rules sound rather foolish if not totally irrelevant. The speed limit in your area may mean one thing, but the only thing that really counts is who's writing the ticket. Supporting hypocracy works until your own ox gets gored. Stosh

None..... but I used to be a Beaver, a good ol' Beaver too. Stosh C-9W-93

"I take it from what yeh write that you don't have a troop in this program, you just have individual Boy Scouts from other troops who come and participate?" The Troop I serve is a regular BSA Troop. The Crew is an entity all of it's own and there is no connection whatsoever between my Troop and my Crew except me as leader of both. I have never had a boy from my present Troop or previous Troop join in with my Crew. "What do yeh do with regular "civilian" non-Boy Scout youth age 12 who want to participate?" Here's where the real rub comes. Do I have them "join" my Troop on paper and really just attend with the Crew or how far can I bend the rules to make it work. It would be nice to have the boy in the BSA program somewhere, somehow connected but what is done now is the boy's father joins the CO, takes out family membership and the boy falls in with the Crew. I also have the father sign on as a Crew CM so that any legal guardianship issues are covered too. Ugly situation huh? "One option that might keep everything "clean" and make da DE and SE happy is to have yeh charter a troop and get special dispensation to allow boys to dual register in your troop and their "home" troop. Adds another troop to the roles, clearly resolves the ambiguity. As a specialty troop, yeh'd have to be clear with "home" SM's what your role was (to supplement but not replace their program), but it could work really nicely." Or as I have stated, just have them join my troop to qualify as being in BSA, but they would never participate in the troop. One has to love all this ambiguity. Every time the DE or SE see me coming, they run. It's taken me a while, but now I have "permission" to recruit from anywhere in our arena of influence. We presently have Crew members from 3 different states and 5 different councils. Presently we have only one boy who hangs with us that isn't involved in scouting, but his father is a member of a similar organization to our CO. That may be all well and good, but one of the main reasons for our Crew is to offer a program to youth who's parents are NOT involved in the hobby, but the kids wish to be. As far as "home" troops for these boys? Them staying with their troop and Eagle has always been a solid factor when SM's feel we are stealing away their scouts. It takes away all their arguments. As I have stated, all but one boy has Eagled. As a matter of fact, we had one boy pulling D's and F's and he's now doing solid B work in school. Another boy according to his parent's rules, couldn't join until he pulled up his grades, finished a major report for school and went out for sports. His grades all went up one notch, he got A+ with honorable mention on his report, and as a freshman, made the HS varsity swim team. He's our newest member and his parents drive him 3 1/2 hours each way to our once a month, all-day meeting. Never underestimate the power of a good program. I'm just trying to figure out how to be able to make it available to more boys without having to hassle with insurance, registration, guardianship, etc. issues. Stosh

In my troop a scout is "unassigned" to a patrol until he sews his patch on. It usually only takes one week of missing out on the fun to get the patch on. As a matter of fact, the SM has needle and thread and will be happy to show the boy how to sew the patch on. It's either get with the program, miss out on some fun, or get a sewing lesson from the SM. Most opt for getting with the program. This concept also applies to POR patches as well as rank. :^) Stosh

Isn't trying to justify hypocracy fun? Being 18 means you are an adult, except in Venturing. Cubbing and Scouting yes, but not Venturing. Bunking 20 year olds with 14 year olds is ok, except in Scouting and Cubbing.... 18 year old Scouts can be the second adult in Scoutiong and Cubbing but not Venturing. Every time someone has to give an exception to a rule it means there's something wrong with the rule in the first place. I'm thinking BSA has done this to make sure everyone is totally confused. :^) Stosh

I believe that is the point I made in an earlier post: "SM conference for an AOL candidate? I just saw 19 boys cross-over having earned their AOL and 17 joined my troop. None of them did a SM conference prior to this. They all visited my troop, but no conferences were requested. It's just what the Pack leaders decide is necessary to walk away with the AOL. Stosh "

I'm another of those scouts in the 60's and adult youth leader since. But I'm one of the "unimaginative, uneducated morons without a clue about the needs and desires of todays youth" who doesn't follow scout program policies very well, spends too much time being a kid and yet runs a growing and successful Troop AND Crew at the same time. Am I trained? Yep from Cubbing up to Venturing and toss in WB and Univerity as well. Have I taught training on most of those levels? Yep! Does training make a difference? Yes, but only a little, far less than some on the forum seem to indicate. Does training insure a good program NO! Does following the scout program insure a successful pack/troop/crew? NO! All training does is give one an opportunity to wear a "TRAINED" patch on their sleeve and keeping the DE from bugging them about getting trained. Nothing more nothing less. Over the years I have found out that my best training comes from the kids, not the BSA program. The BSA program does not nor will it ever be able to insure every pack/troop/crew will be successful. Those that expouse such ideals have no idea what the potential may mean for their boys. Ever have a boy call you up crying because he couldn't make it to the meeting that night? What does training do for you at that point? Ever have a boy go before a judge to have the custody arrangement adjusted so he could go with his fellow scouts to summer camp? What does training say about that? Ever have boys hanging around as adult leaders 4 and 5 years later because they don't want to leave? Where's it written in Scout literature that promotes that? The Scouting program with all it's literature, rules and recommendations is only the first step in a long journey. At best it points one in the right direction. What the individual does with that first step determins the course of his/her own journey. Scouting is an issue of the heart, not the mind. One can train the mind, but the heart is where it all happens. Stosh

My unique situation is Civil War Reenacting Crew. I have boys interested in the hobby that are too young to be in the Crew but qualify to take the field in reenacting. I have two registered Boy Scouts that are musicians who function in their position but are only 11 and 12 years old. They are full members of reenacting units. I have other Boy Scouts that come to our events to learn the hobby that are 13. We are very strict in following BSA policy for activity appropriate situations. It usually takes a year's worth of training to get the boys up to speed and this extra year when they are 13 allows them to take the field trained and experienced once they turn 14. We have alternative solutions to situations where the event dictates that no one under 16 can take the field with a weapon but with their permission our boys take the field, but without powder. Over the years all of these events have dropped that requirement for our boys because of the level of training they have shown, they are better on the field than most adult units. We have artillery boys associated with our Crew as well that have to be 16 in order to get the proper national certification of the hobby to man the gun. This year the president of the crew will be taking the field as a regimental adjutant (lieutenant) at a national event at Gettysburg. I normally take that position, but chose to remain with the boys on the field as their company commander. I am the captain of the chartering organization and both the CO and Crew will take the field together under my command. The adjutant will be with the CC of the Crew who is the lt. colonel of the regiment. After 10 years of work, we'll have our first Crew member taking the field in a commissioned officer role. I haven't heard yet whether or not the 12 year old Boy Scout has been chosen as the regimental bugler or not. This unique situation is why we can honestly say we don't follow much of the BSA program for Venturing. We have no one ever in 10 years of the crew speak of the Ranger Award or any other Venturing advancement/award. However, if the boy is a Boy Scout when he joins, i.e. 12 year old bugler, he is expected to remain dual registered with his Troop and attain the rank of Eagle. To-date, only one boy did not fulfill that expectation. We have had about 8 boys in our Crew Eagle in their home Troops. We have a retention rate of about 80% with some of our adult leaders now having been youth charter members of the Crew 10 years ago. Stosh

Certain council/district wide events have a mixed bag of scouts attending all covered by BSA insurance/sanctions. But what about unit events? If Boy Scouts regularly attend Crew events, does this still cover the Boy Scouts with insurance, etc.? I have Boy Scouts that attend regularly with my Crew because of it's unique situation, so would they be covered as a Scout activity? Stosh

Yep, one less than the minimum number to get by doesn't meet the requirements. And one more than required is no longer the minimum to get by. :^) Stosh

I view trust a little different than having to be earned. Trust is given and remains in tact until the individual provides evidence that he/she is not to be trusted. If every scout and scouter promises to live by the Scout Laws, surely trustworthy leads the list and the benefit of the doubt is given until proven otherwise. To assume differently may mean a breech of the Scout Law itself. From the subject line of this thread it implies that there is a possibility that those around us aren't trying to live up to the Scout Law. I'm kinda troubled by that implication. Maybe it's the root cause as to why adults can't trust the boys to run their own program too, or trust them with diligent use of ax and knife, etc. etc. etc. There's a problem with having to earn trust, it implies the other person must earn something before given an opportunity. On the other hand, I give opportunities and then trust the boys to follow through. This works just as well with other adults. I've been following this pattern now for about 30 years of youth work and I haven't been disappointed very often. Maybe that's why Trustworthy leads the list of Scout Laws. Stosh

A scout hat is part of the uniform indoors or outdoors. If it is not worn the scout is out of uniform. To illustrate the lack of understanding on this, my boys at summer camp were asked by camp staff specifically to remove their hats at the outdoor flag ceremony. They were the BSA Expedition hats and they refused to remove them because it was conveyed to the camp staff that wearing BSA hats was required if it's part of a troop's uniform. The staff researched it and publically apologized to the boys and noted to the rest of the campers that if it's part of a troop uniform the boys are expecteded to wear it to be in full uniform. Stosh

And how does one explain to the EBOR why the scout has only the minimum number of nights camping to just get by for the award? I do believe that the first camping MB required 50 nights of camping not 20. No one's going to the state parks anymore, and yet how does one explain the large numbers of people flocking to such places as the BWCA? Surely one can't take their RV and mega-hp fishing boat there to have their fun. The face of camping has changed and with the high cost of energy, it will change again. Let's hope the drop in camping is due to the price of gas with a major RV burning it at a rate of 5-8 mpg, and not due to a disinterest in the outdoors. So far I haven't experienced a distraction to the outdoor program with my boys and I don't expect to experience it. One might also consider that during Webelos outdoor training many of the participants I taught stopped by Walmart/K-Mart to pick up a tent and sleeping bag for the event. I think the major problem with scouting outdoors is many of the leaders, trained or not just don't like bugs and the inconvenience of such activities. And sleeping out under the stars at -10 degrees is inconvenient for even the most hardened outdoorsman. I bet without too much difficulty I can find a handful of trained Cub leaders who won't take on Webelos or Scouting because of the outdoors nature of the program. This aversion is easily translated to the boys they are in charge of. One can endure the training of the BSA program without ever encouraging it with the boys and still be called a BSA trained leader. Stosh

On the contrary, if one reads the requirements, doesn't add anything to them, nor detract, it spells it out quite clearly. "With your Webelos den, visit at least one Boy Scout troop meeting" If it's a Cub Scout award that has nothing to do with Boy Scouts, I find the wording here quite confusing. "one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity." I guess one could do a Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity without actually doing a Boy Scout outdoor activity. I'm sure the "-oriented" could leave it open to not needing any Boy Scouts around. I could see that being interpreted that way. "(If you have already done this when you earned your Outdoorsman activity badge, you may not use it to fulfill requirements for your Arrow of Light Award.) Participate in a Webelos overnight campout or day hike. (If you have already done this when you earned your Outdoorsman activity badge, you may not use it to fulfill requirements for your Arrow of Light Award requirements.) After you have completed all five of the above requirements, and after a talk with your Webelos den leader, arrange to visit, with your parent or guardian, a meeting of a Boy Scout troop you think you might like to join. Have a conference with the Scoutmaster." Hmmm, if it's a Cub Scout only award that has nothing to do with Boy Scouts, why would the requirements spell out explicitly having a conference with the Scoutmaster of the troop being visited. Surely the Cub Scout program has Cub Scout Scoutmasters registered with them so that Boy Scout Scoutmasters wouldn't be involved in the Cub AOL award process. "The AOL is a CUB SCOUT award. If you are a Scoutmaster then what happens in the Pack has nothing to do with you does it? If the Scout joins the troop he needs to earn the Scout Badge. The Scout Badge requires a SM Conference, if you did not get to do one with Scout yet, then do one now that he is in the troop. I do not see the issue here." Then it would seem that one isn't looking at the AOL requirements because there seems to be at least 3 issues directly related to interaction with Boy Scouts in order to qualify for the award, so, no, it isn't an issue that is reserved only for the pack, but requires some interaction between pack and troop along with the SM. I do believe this is done to encourage the process of transition between the two scouting programs. From what I see in the requirements, the boy does a AOL SM conference and a BS Scout SM conference. Kinda like he has to tie a square knot for AOL and another for Scout. Stosh

"BSA's membership numbers have dropped since the 60s. Why? One arguement is that there is much more pulling at the kids today than there used to be." I do believe that the BSA made major program changes in the 70's that made an impact on the goals program as well. It was working well back then and it doesn't seem to be now. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" may have applications here. Stosh

Kids hang out with their friends. Kids hang out at the mall. Kids hang out at the arcade. Kids hang out at their buddies' homes. Kids hang out at .... How many kids hang out at a campsite? Why do we always need activities to keep kids entertained all the time in scouting? Why can't they just hang out at the campsite and jaw-jack about anything they want? I have been camping since the early 50's when I had a floorless pup tent with no front flaps. There was "nothing to do" for the most part, but I still yearn for those early years. Staring into a campfire for hours, telling jokes, whittling, cooking and well, yeah, just hanging out. Stosh

Scouting is a revolving door.... A boy should stay 7 years. If a troop takes on 3 boys every year they ought to maintain 21 members. However the problem is not so much getting boys, it's keeping them. We let boys leave more often than we keep them. Gee, we lost 3 boys to sports. Does that mean they are now playing year round sports? or did the boys have to choose between sports or scouts? Recruiting is an everyday process. Recruit your new members and recruit your current members. Retention is the key to a sustained program. Your troop has to be appealing to the new boys, the middle aged boys and the older boys. We often do well with the new boys with all the newness and T-FC program running very well, but then we seem to drop the ball and by the time the boys are getting older, they have most likely found other interests. Boys vote on the program with their feet. Reevaluate your program. If there's a program that follows through from start to finish the boys will stay and your troop will grow both in numbers, but also in quality of program. If older boy program is something the boys look forward to, they'll stick around and check it out. It's a lot easier to keep a scout than find one. Stosh

SM conference for an AOL candidate? I just saw 19 boys cross-over having earned their AOL and 17 joined my troop. None of them did a SM conference prior to this. They all visited my troop, but no conferences were requested. It's just what the Pack leaders decide is necessary to walk away with the AOL. Stosh

Maybe having 8 in a patrol is meant for a reason. I simply can't figure out why with 8 boys they need more than one patrol. They merge them together every chance they get anyway. Maybe it's just so some scouts can get their POR in rather than actually function as a patrol. I have 23 boys and 3 patrols. Works really nice. Stosh

If a young couple is involved with a Crew and the wife is 20 years old and the husband is 21, they cannot bunk up. She would need to register as a youth and the husband as an adult. Go figure. Stosh

I just went around with our council on this issue. Our crew is heading out east for a big event and with hotel room cheaper if everyone bunks up, our council has informed us that it is not proper for 18-20 year-olds to be bunking with adults, they are to bunk with the under 18 year-olds. 20 year-old Venturing members are considered youth for youth protection purposes, they bunk with the 14 year-olds. Stosh Advisor, VC-2

The knots mean only what one thinks they mean. Ask the boys what those knots mean and most of them won't have the foggiest idea. The best judge of the quality of your contribution to scouting comes from the boys, not from other adults handing out knots. Stosh

My momma always used to say, "Go outside and blow some stink off." She didn't care what we did as long as it was on the other side of the door. We figured it out, a lot of mom's had the same idea. By the time I was scout age, it became more and more difficult to get me back in the house for supper and/or darkness. :^) Stosh

And what about the boys who get AOL and never register in a troop? Have they in fact earned the AOL? I have seen many AOL Webelos cross over to nothing, they just go back and sit with their parents after they cross the bridge rather than be welcomed into a troop. It sure is strange how these boys can "earn" the award without ever attending the Boy Scout outing nor having a SM conference as the requirements state. If such practices become common place, the value of the award will surely diminish. Stosh

Of course, one can also use the Scout rank requirements to serve as a learning opportunity for the various parts of the troop. This requires the PL's to develop a curricula for planning out their meeting, working with each boy, doing followup on the pamphlet, etc. How well the PL does will give an indication of how serious he will be taking the T-1C requirements. If he just "blows through" them because the scout already knows the stuff, then the president is set to "blow through" the rest. I told my PL's that I would be doing a complete and serious SM conference with each boy, not to check to see if he learned the stuff, but I wanted to know how well the PL was teaching. Last night we had our first patrol ready for a serious BOR for Scout rank. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know ya can't add requirements to the rank. But I can give learning opportunities to the new boys so they get their feet wet in a BOR that "doesn't count" but when it does, they'll be prepared. The adults were new (took on a bunch of new CM's this year and they too needed the experience of doing a few freebie BOR's.) I figured I'd get some feedback from the CC and BOR members because then I wasn't going to judge my PL's effectiveness based just on my own perceptions. The CC came to me after the meeting and was very impressed. He said that all the boys did their BOR's at a maturity and articulation level normally seen in 2nd Class or 1st Class BOR's. Does that mean I can relax a little with my PL's knowing they're doing a better than average job? Probably not, but I know I don't have to worry so much about the boys "blowing through" the next level of requirements. I find that the Scout requirements/process is a great teaching tool for the new scouts, the older instructors/PL's, the SM to get to know the boys and the CM's doing some great orientation BOR's. Maybe one ought to take the opportunity seriously. Stosh