Stosh

Just because a boy earns his AOL doesn't mean he's done with Cub Scouts any more than a boy earning his Eagle is done with Boy Scouting. This kind of thinking really doesn't do much for the Scouting program. I got all my Webelos I's their AOL at the end of their first year. That left the second year for any boy that wanted to work on extra pins and a whole lot of fun activities. We went camping, canoeing, swimming, pinewood, etc. just for fun, the pressure was off. The boys got to show up at all the Pack meetings with their AOL's on their shirt for others to see for a change. At the end of the second summer the boys began talking about crossing over because all the good summer weather was done and they had pretty much seen it all and done it all and were antsy to get into Boy Scouts. It was at that point we all knew it was time to cross over. Stosh

If a Boy Scout wishes to join my Venturing Crew, I EXPECT him to dual register with is Troop and my Crew. I also EXPECT him to continue working on Boy Scout rank and attain his Eagle. Thus far I have had 6 Scouts Eagle in my Crew. And yes, I have had 2 of these boys registered in a second Crew besides mine. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I totally own my home. I have no credit cards, I owe no one anything, and my credit rating really sucks. Anyone that wants it can have it. I couldn't get a loan on it if I tried, but if they want to give it a try, go for it. By the way, I do teach Personal Finance MB! Stosh

Whether it's teaching Sunday School, acolyting in protestant churches, altar boy in Catholic churches, painting a room, ushering, assisting with communion, doing readings during worship all count the same. The boy is expected to show up, do his job and do it right. If we are going to judge the difficulty into doing that job, then 2 minutes of reading a lesson doesn't count as much as for the for the fact that the boy had to stay for 1 hour to do that, same for the ushers and acolytes. It may take only one minute to light the candles and 1 minute to extinguish them, the reader does is two minutes near the front of the service and then can leave, the acolyte has to stay for the whole service. If his Sunday School class makes tray decorations for the nursing home residents at Christmas time, does that count as a service project? If he is teaching the class and the kids make the decorations does he get credit for it? Etc. etc. etc. Every time we start picking this stuff apart we get into trouble. Maybe this is why BSA gives a wide latitude to such activities.

It never ceases to amaze me why SM's don't teach their boys Parlimentary Procedure. It is basic to citizenship in this country. If one doesn't know the process, they can't effectively participate and control any meeting they are expected to chair. Have the PLC adopt PP. Then have the SPL offer the floor to only those he chooses to have speak at the meeting. Visitors are just that, visitors. If they can not refrain from disrupting the meeting they are to be removed from the procedings. Basic Civics! For those who choose not to use PP, then it's a crap shoot as to what they get for their boys in their attempt to lead. For Citizenship MB's we have the boys attend civic meetings and unless they know basic PP I'm sure it's a reach as to understanding how the process is working right there in front of them. If they ever aspire to be on one of these boards they had better learn this process and what better place than in a scout troop. If one is going to teach leadership at least teach them the tools to do it with. Stosh

I remember the days when SS# was your driver's license number. There's a simple way to get around all the hassle. For those who are afraid of getting their identity stolen, get insurance. I don't drive my car without insurance. I don't have my fiances secure for my family without insurance, I have my home and possessions protected with insurance, as well as my health, so why not one's identify. Then every time you use your credit card, you expose yourself to theft. Lose your wallet? Routing # and account # on your check? Yep! If one thinks that giving one's SS# to the scout office is dangerous, look around, it would be like standing in the middle of a croc infested swamp of quick sand worrying about whether or not a hang nail is going to get infected. Stosh

The way I read this is that BSA is going back and doing background checks on the scouters are now in place that haven't had one yet. And yes, when I moved from ASM to SM of a different troop my 15 years as an ASM and 10 years as a CA didn't count for anything, I had to have a background check. They are taking this seriously and have for a number of years. I'm a counselor for my church youth group and I needed a background check for that this year as well. And yes, they did that one too. What this sounds like is that even if you've been in Scouting for 30 years and are in the same position, you are no longer grandfathered into the program and a background check will be done. Stosh

Ok, that clears that up with the exception that I don't ever recall seeing any adult wearing the youth religious knot. I can't imagine they all have earned the award as an adult. Stosh

I do think that in the example of the religious knot, if the boy earns the knot as a Cub Scout he wears the purple backed silver cord knot with the Cub Scout device on it. If he earns a second medal as a Boy Scout he adds the Boy Scout device to it. He may also earn the award as a Venturer and would then attach a Venturing device. When he turns 18 he changes the knot to an adult knot, silver with purple cord knot, but retains the devices to show that the knot was awarded as a youth. Those who have no devices on the religious knot are those who have had the award given as an adult. Obviously the adult knot with no devices show that the honor carries a different meaning than those who were awarded the honor as a Cub Scout. Those that have been awarded the scoutmaster award of merit wear their tan backed knot with white cord, the crew adviser award of merit wears the same knot with the Venturing device on it. The same holds true for the training and key knots. With that being said, if the scouter has earned the Boy Scout training award which is the knot with no device and the Venturing training award, same knot with the device, does he wear a second knot with the device to show the different award? Same for key knot and maybe the merit award? Or does the scouter use one knot and apply two devices? Stosh

If a person says one can't do it this way and another says one can't do it that way, and still another says one can't do it their way or somebody else's way, they're pretty much putting the situation into a box. To repeatedly wail and gnash their teeth in anguish is unfortunate for them in their situation. So be it, but to me that way of thinking seems to merely box people in. If all one does is offer up what can't be done, then the only solution is to either think outside the box or stay at home. It wasn't meant as a put down, just an observation of reality. I guess I'm not too familiar with the described "boundary waters" of the example given, but as far as BWCA, if the site doesn't have a pit toilet AND a fire ring it is not an official site and can't be camped in. To think one needs to have a cookless menu in the BWCA is a rather weak argument because one can't camp there unless they have a fire ring. And yes after many trips up there the only cooking I do is still with wood. An aluminum Dutch oven is the BWCA's best friend. Yep, blueberry muffins for breakfast at least a couple of times during the week. Fresh breadsticks to go with the pan-fried walleye is great as well. And as far as us old foggies roughing it, 45 years of wisdom has resolved a lot of issues that very seldom do I actually suffer on an outing. Even with limited resources I eat better than most. I do own a backpack stove, surprisingly, but I use it only as a last resort, and it's been years since I've had need of it. And maybe woodburning might be banned in "many states", but our DNR explicitly wants us to dig out the underbrush and clear out areas around campsites of downed wood. Here the problems of forest fires are increased with woods full of dead undergrowth. The Forest Service thinks it's going to burn one way or the other and prefers the boys doing it in a campfire rather than going up in a forest fire. We have national forests that we camp in, we have state forests we camp in, we have state parks we camp in, we have county parks we camp in, we have bike trails throughout the state that have campsites in for camping, the DNR has campsites, people camp on beaches and sandbars in our rivers all the time. It's rather unfortunate that some boys around the country don't have the opportunities our boys do, but whereas my advice may not apply to their situation, those problems don't apply to us. Please feel free to ignore my comments if they don't apply to your situation, but remember, there are others out there that are not restricted by your particular limitations. After all, this thread is on Light & Lean vs. Car Camping. If it's a real problem, just stick with car camping, there are a lot of troops that feel this is the only way to go. I've done a ton of car camping, but I've done a ton of light and lean. Both offer good and bad options. Gunny, I have used the alcohol stove as well, but I found I was carrying more fuel to generate the same amount of heat than with the white-gas. My stove was also too open and if spilled would be a disaster. Maybe you have a better setup than mine. I find that a zip lock sandwitch bag with 6-8 briquettes is enough fuel for an individual meal using a mess kit. With a very sharp belt ax one can generate enough chips to keep a #10 stove going quite nicely out of a rather small piece of wood. As I mentioned before and as you have indicated, wood stoves don't need bonfire/campfire amounts of wood to cook a meal. My goal is to figure out how the Civil War soldier could build a fire and make a cup of coffee from scratch during their 5 minute march break. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I think that the devices one can earn is for a knot that applies to different programs. A scout can earn a religious knot as a cub, boy and venturing, if he does he needs to put a cub, scout and venturing device on the knot. If he receives the award then as an adult, he switches to the adult knot but retains all the devices. The award of merit can be earned by adults in the different programs as well. If they earn it as a CM, SM and as a CA, they put the different devices on the knots. Stosh

One's gotta love this in the box thinking. If there's a major ban on burning, plan your menu without heated foods. Leave the stove and fuel at home, enjoy the lighter packs and no one's going to starve to death in the process. If one can take stoves, fine, take the lightest option if one can get free fuel there, great, if not take something along with you. If you can do a campfire, leave the stoves at home and cook on wood. What everyone seems to forget is there are plenty of options out there that can be adapted to endless constraints placed on the boys. Let them do a little problem solving instead of trying to shoe-horn a solution into a complex problem. For every exception this forum poses, I can offer an alternative solution, and for every alternative solution I propose, the forum will dig until they find some obscure "rule" out there that will make the trip impossible. For those folks, stay home and cook on the gas grill in one of the member's back yards. For the rest of you, evaluate your situation, plan accordingly. And for those who are a little paunchy, try a bag of gorp and leave a few of those pounds along the trail. A person might be a little uncomfortable but at my AARP age, I can still keep up with boys that carry twice the gear. The best piece of equipment for backpacking is one's brain. Try backpacking with a wool blanket, canvas shelter half, leather shoes that have no padding or arch, wool uniform, a back pack that has no waist belt and 20# of leather equipment and a 10# weapon and your camp is 5 miles from the parking lot and it all has to be carried in one trip. If one thinks this is crazy, so be it, there will be 12,000 others with me just as crazy as I am. Those that fail to plan, plan to fail. It's as simple as that. Stosh Stosh

I realize there are a lot of AOL/Eagle mills out there but then they jam a lot of people through WB, OA and just about any other aspect of scouting. A FOS chairman that get's Silver Beaver may cheapen the award too. I still look up to the leaders that sacrifice a lot to make sure their boys have an opportunity for AOL and Eagle, mill or not. There are leaders out there that still work at having the boys earn the award. Stosh

Solution to the national forest problem, don't camp in national forests. There are plenty of places that don't require the use of fossil fuel to cook on. A #10 can makes a great stove that will still work on natural fuels rather than carrying flamable liquids into the forests. A #10 stove can burn wood, charcoal and wax. I'm not talking campfires here, I'm talking cooking fires/stoves, limited, and confined. A wood cook fire can be done on a picnic table top and not leave a mark. It's just an issue of education and conservation. Everyone having a personal white gas stove is not conservation in my book, at times it's a necessity, but not conservation. Sometimes we think the latest and greatest is the best, but sometimes the tried and true works just as good and sometimes a lot more fun. As far as the website that Gunny posted, it sure looks like an expensive #10 can with a tuna can burner to me! It's interesting how the gentleman "invented" something that is nothing more than a fancy schmancy stove I have used for years and got for free. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

AOL badges on their den member's shirts and Eagle on their troop member's shirts. Their own shirt doesn't need anything but council strip, a couple of numbers and red epilets.

There are of course special circumstances, like when all the new scouts already are bonded together, but even then, they need to eventually learn to work with and under others. ?? I'm confused here, does this mean we are to break up the teamwork of the patrol and replace it with one guy rules all? Working "under" others does not strike me as a team approach, nor does it give any indication of a service style of leadership promoted by the servant leadership team approach of BSA. Stosh

I know I'm out of line here, but with all the $$$$'s going towards fuel, stoves, gear, etc. whatever happened to cooking using a $5 messkit and free wood in the woods? I've camped an entire weekend this way and had great meals. If the messkit get's wrecked, another $5 gets you back in action. Stosh

If adults are afraid to let their kids be independent, they will train their children to do the same to their grandchildren. Some of my best non-scouting camping was hanging out with my buddies around a campfire with no adults in a park less than 5 miles from home. There were other people around, we didn't choose to go off in the total wilderness and make it a worse-case scenenrio for our parents. They could have gotten in touch with us in about 10 minutes if need be. After we got licenses and keys, we extended the distances to maybe 20-30 miles away, depending on whose parents didn't need their car. With cell phones, I can't imagine any parent not allowing their kids to learn this valuable lesson, unless they themselves are too afraid and can't trust their kids to be able to take care of themselves. Ever wonder why so many kids go off the deep end when they get a chance to move away from home? I don't. Stosh

I'm with Beavah on this one. The boys decide who's in their patrol, adults stay out of it. If the NSP get's cherry picked, so be it, but remember the legacy patrol members can also leave and form up their own patrols as well. Maybe the NSP members want to hang together and don't want to go into the legacy patrols. A lot of dynamics here that if left alone will resolve themselves. The only expecation in my troop is that patrols are no bigger than 8 members. If there's no room for your buddy, one can always leave the patrol to be with him. What happens when only 2 boys want to be in a patrol? They'll figure it out on the first campout when between the two of them they have to do all the work for their "patrol". They'll herd up for protection sooner or later. Stosh

Check with your council, some councils don't require a tour permit unless one goes out of council. Stosh

A Scout patrol is optimally 8 people, 2 DC's could assist very nicely, 3 would make life even that much easier. But, these DC's are not to replace the DL. Break the group down into smaller groups, and everyone works on the same project at the same time. Knots? same knot all groups, Readyman, same requirement all groups, etc. This way the den is broken down into a manageable size groupings. Every good DC should be able to work easily with 6-8 boys with DL supervision. Also the DC's could break off a few boys that have gotten behind the rest of the group and need extra 1 on 1 assistance without disrupting the rest of the den. Same for boys that lose focus and start acting up. Never underestimate a good DC, which I often found more helpful and involved than some ADLs. Stosh

When I was a scout we weren't allowed to go on unsupervised trips. However, that didn't stop us from camping without scout sanctions which we did all the time. By the time I turned 18 I had more camping experience than most people get in a lifetime. The only time I got grief from my parents is when we'd go and not invite my dad along. Stosh

Another option for the huge den is 2 DC's from the Boy Scout troop they will be going into. If the Pack isn't going to support you, possibly the Troop will.

One of the problems with making up the rules as one goes along is trying to remember them all. If this is the treatment the boy is getting, it's time to get the SE involved. I have had a number of boys Eagle in my Crew, but I always had them retain their membership in a troop to avoid situations like this. I haven't had a boy yet want to Eagle that hasn't stayed with this troop. I do believe there is something about a boy needing to be a FC scout before they join a Crew/Ship in order to go on for Eagle. If this be the case, we have found it easier for the boy to remain dual registered with his troop and work on his Eagle through the Boy Scout program. We don't do much for our Eagles except help with manpower on his project and hold his feet to the fire to keep him on track. Stosh

One must remember that rules apply for safety reasons, and of course insurance reasons. Cub Scouts can only shoot BB guns, Boy Scouts can shoot shotguns and rifles at a range, Venturing Scouts can shoot handguns and do open hunts. And yet none of the boys can do paint-ball because it is too "war like". One the other hand Venturing Crews that do historical reenacting can in fact participate in war games and all the trappings involved in military activities. Go figure. Stosh