Stosh

I went back and reread the first posting and of course began to think about all the different possibilities of this 12 year-old's comment. 1) In some cultures he would be considered an adult. 2) Having been "affronted" by a label i.e. "Kid", he did not respond in like kind. 3) The comment was precise and accurate with no hidden agendas. The more I think about it with the polite, mature response considering the circumstances. I would tend to agree with him. I know a lot of "adults" that wouldn't react as well as he did. Stosh

Of course one can also interpret the requirement as practicing for 30 days doesn't mean those 30 days of practice are consecutive. If he misses a day, he just doesn't count it but completes the requirement when he has his 30th day of practice done. It's kinda like 20 days of camping for the MB. If a boy only wants to exercise once a week he can knock out this requirement in a mere 30 weeks, twice a week, 15 weeks, or once a day, 30 days. I'll almost bet my interpretation for the requirement is more appropriate than doing a sluff job on the intial test, sitting around for 30 days and then doing one more sit-up, one more pull-up, one more push-up, and then running the course instead of just jogging. Why is it that every time there's a discussion on interpretation of requirements, I get the feeling that someone's somehow trying to twist thing around so that some boy can just squeak by with the most minimal amount of effort and still get credit for something. Stosh

I've always applied the Golden Rule principle in this situation. They refer to me as Mr. B______ and I refer to them as Mr. A______. That way when they do something especially mature or adult like, I refer to them by their first name as one would do on a more familial level as adults. Even with my calling them by their first names occasionally, they have never referred to me by my first name. Respect passes both ways. Stosh

I spend a little time explaining the requirements to the boys so they understand their importance. I always use the illustration of preparing to go to Philmont or BWCA with this advancement. Unless one applies themselves to a routine before going on a major outing they will in fact enjoy the event less. At age 50 I went on the toughest trek of Philmont and even with 9 month's prep, I wasn't ready for it, but I made it through. I would not have made it had I not done daily conditioning for it. There is nothing in the Scout literature that forbids anyone of explaining to the boys why certain requirements are chosen for the book and why they are important to know. Stosh

Just because I put in 30 years of Boy Scouting and 10 years as Venturing Advisor doesn't mean I have 40 years in Scouting. If a boy needs to fulfill his POR responsibility and is running short on time, use the alternative project requirement and be honest about it rather than fudging the numbers. Maybe we ought to teach our boys to be proactive with their advancement instead of waiting around to the last minute and having everyone run around trying to find their way around rules so that some boy who has not been paying attention for the past 7 years can get his Eagle. Somehow I find a degree of questionable honesty in some of these approaches to bending the "rules". Stosh

"So Stosh, you would give a Scout advancement credit for his POR, regardless of how well (or how poorly) he did it? Where's the learning or leadership in that?" Yes, I would. If the boy held the POR it's all that is required by the rank advancement. He does not need to succeed at it, just hold it. To give dual and then not give credit is the same thing as holding a position and then putting extra expectations on the requirement that is not spelled out in the book. Now if after 2 months it isn't working for him, I may drop him out of that position or put him somewhere else, but he still held the position and will get full credit for it for the time he held the position. Learning? A boy can learn that this job just isn't his thing. How is he to know that without trying it? Leadership? Would it be better to have the boy hold a POR with no duties to it just so he can advance? Where's the leadership in that and name me a troop that hasn't done just that. I have a boy with a learning disability that denies him the possibility to doing a POR. So, I'm taking the alternative track and he's doing a couple of special projects instead. I'm not expecting him to take 6 months to do the projects, but I'm expecting him to fulfill his expectations. It sure is more honest than giving him a POR patch with no expectations just to pass him through the ranks. Stosh

In the early literature of BSA a parlor scout was one who spent all his time in camp using his skills for such activities, but never being able to develop them for real life. If a boy only plans on doing scout activities while being a scout he will always be a parlor scout. If he uses his scout learned skills for other activities outside of scouting then he isn't a parlor scout. The term was somewhat derrogatory. It would be comparable to book learning and then never applying what one learned outside the classroom walls. It's like having a 4.0 GPA and can't figure out how to balance a checkbook. Stosh

I am IH and CA of my venturing crew. My CC used to be IH a few years back. Stosh

I have often thought of leadership training as trying out a task to see how well it fits. Kinda like MB's. First Aid doesn't make one an EMT, but it does give a boy some insight into the nature of the beast. Why is it different with POR's? Can't a boy give it a try? If he doesn't meet expectations, were they spelled out for him? Was he supported by the adults in his efforts? What was going on with the situation? Gotta love all this failure conversation. With a POR it's all about doing the job or not doing the job. There's no succeed/fail about it. If we as adults were judged on success/failure we'd all be out of a job eventually. I have always viewed my POR's as functioning positions. Does the boy function as expected in that position? If he's not functioning well or at all, there's a reason other than failure for it. Maybe a SM conference is in order to clarify the differences in expectations. Tell him what's expected, let him give it a try and coach and support him in his efforts. What's so complicated about that? Stosh

I'm sure a lot of this dual role activity depends on the individual and the amount of time they have to devote themselves to the task at hand. I haven't found being a SM for a troop, a CA for a venturing crew and a chaperone/counselor for my local church youth group to be a problem. This summer I'll be spending the full week at camp with the troop, attending a national event out east with the crew and a week long mission trip to Kansas City with the church kids. And how long has this been going on? Hmmm, over 10 years now. Maybe I ought to burn out some day, but until then I seem to be having way too much fun. How do others feel about my multiple roles? District Award of Merit, Crew Advisor Award of Merit and Crew Advisor Key all this year. I wouldn't recommend it to just anyone, but it is possible to do a good job in multiple roles. Stosh

This is an interesting discussion in light of our council's activity schedule which has, in the past, scheduled a Cub Scout 2 day event running parallel with a Boy Scout camporee at the same place at the same time with the emphasis being an opportunity for the Webelos boys to "interact" with the Boy Scouts throughout the weekend. When the Boy Scouts go off for their activity competitions, the Cub Scouts go off and do their activities, but for the most part they camp and eat together with the Boy Scout troops hosting their potential crossover boys from the pack. Stosh

How much is this going to cost us? Stosh

If he's good at it, there's nothing to say he can't serve 3-4 years as a DC! After his first year if he earns the award, then he wears the award cord too. Stosh

In my troop I have only one senior boy with the maturity and experience to handle multiple jobs. I have 3 PL's of experienced scouts and they have their hands full with their work. The 4th boy has TG on his sleeve, but "doubles" as a QM, Scribe, SPL, and whatever else is needed by the PL's to function with their boys. I don't think there's enough material on his uniform sleeve to handle all the jobs he does for the patrols. Stosh

I may not think like many of the rest of those on the forum, so be it. Either I'm an idiot or a enlightened ray of hope. I really don't care which way I'm taken. But with that being said, I have moderated forums on the internet for over 10 years now and they all basically follow the same patterns of discussion with the same styles of personalities regardless of the subject of forums. What makes it a valuable resource is that no one really thinks alike and for that reason one can glean out information that can sometimes push one's ideas off of square #1. I don't have all the answers except for those that pertain to me. I don't have an axe to grind, nor do I serve any purpose. I can't solve your problem because I'm busy dealing with my own. But if I do offer up some little gem of insight along the way, what bothers me the most is that some will view this in a positive manner and either accept the idea or politely ignore it. On the other hand there are always those that find it necessary to debate every point being made and often times distort what I said to the point where even I don't agree with what I said. As far as what others do, It's basically none of my business and what I do is basically none of theirs. But when we share ideas, we share new insight that others can adopt as their own and make it their business. You have a small adult led troop? If it works for you, great. You have a large adult led troop? If it works for you, great! etc. However, if you have a situation where you are not satisfied with what you have and wish to change it, here's where the forums come in handy. There are others out there who are basically doing it differently than you and can offer you pros and cons as to what you may need to do to change. This is where real learning and change happens. If the first words out of one's mouth are judgmental and condescending, the person needing help is tuning it out and moving on to a post that offers some real help. I bet I'm missed a ton of good ideas because I quickly tune out and skip on to the next post when the poster get's on a rant. If everyone did it the same, this forum would vanish overnight. Viva la differance! I'm not expecting anyone to change to accomodate me, but, don't expect me to change to accomodate you. :^) I wonder what we will have missed out by all the good scouters that have become disenchanted with the forum and found other resources? One shouldn't have to wear a bullet-proof vest when visiting with friends. Stosh

Why would anyone need loaner leaders? What's wrong with PL's doing their job at summer camp? If one has a PL and an APL and 6 boys per patrol, there shouldn't be any need in a 2 patrol troop (15 members) to even need a SPL to do the work of the PL's. I'm planning a summer camp of 3 NSP's and 2-3 older boys mixed into the patrols. There is no SPL and the TG may or may not make it. So far my PL's have done a fantastic job organizing their patrols into working units and I don't forsee any problems at camp that the PL's can't handle. If there's a problem, the three of them should be able to sit down and work it out amongst themselves. To borrow an SPL to come in and interfere with this patrol process would do nothing more than announce to my PL's that I don't trust them to be able to handle it themselves. Train your leaders and then trust them. It's called mentoring, coaching, and giving them the opportunity to be the leaders you expect. They don't need safety nets, they need to be trusted. Stosh

My question would be: "Is there are better youth program out there for our kids than Boy Scouts and if so why?" I have found a few things out there that offer a limited range of interest that do better, but nothing as broad and encompassing as Scouting. Stosh

Starting a Venturing crew is not solving a troop problem. All it may do is buy a little time for a handful of kids. First of all there is a 3 year span of ages between Webelos crossovers and Venturing. Unless the troop is fixed, these kids aren't going to wait around for 3 years before continuing their scoutiong experience. They will be long gone into other activities by then. Instead of finding a gimmick, i.e. easier to recruit HS than MS, adding girls, etc. Why not concentrate on putting together a good troop program. Kids recognize quality and will react appropriately. If the troop is a sinking ship and the program stinks, and the leaders don't care, the troop will fold. If one is going to simply wait around until some Webelos boys come along, why not shut down the troop, work on designing a decent program, train the leaders and be ready when the boy cross over rather than spend a lot of time running around developing another program, focusing attention away from the troop and sending any and all adult leaders/coordinators over to a Venturing Crew? Sounds like the very LAST thing a person would want to do to resurrect a troop in trouble. Stosh

And the real kicker is... if one can't form a new troop because the boys are all having too much fun at the established troop, what's the purpose of the new troop? So often we are so anti-megatroops that we forget that maybe if the boys are having fun the BSA/BP recommened sizes aren't the issue. Stosh

Naw, I thought socks right off the bat! :^) Stosh

If you are an adult leader of any youth group, I would suggest registering in the BSA and take the adult leadership training. If you are going to be with groups of kids that you expect to show maturity and knowledge of adult situations, the training will go a long way. I use my BSA training in other areas of my life where I am a leader in other non-scouting youth organizations. Stosh

"Is worded exactly correct, the leader GOT the boys the award. What the leader didn't do was teach these boys how a Boy Scout Troop is run. " Strange how one can make that conclusion not having been privy to the situation. As a matter of fact the boys were trained far better than most Boy Scouts at the 2nd Class level. After receiving their AOL the first year, the second year (Webelos II) they went out and had a blast doing the outings, camping, canoeing, trips, etc. all over the place, having been trained properly, it was a great year. As a matter of fact, 4 meetings and 1 outing every month is exactly what most troops do, so it was run more like a troop than a den anyway. The second year was devoted to deciding and planning the next monthly outing. Except for the color of the shirts, it looked remarkably like a troop. "Troops do not normally cover the 21 merit badges needed for Eagle on a weekly meeting cycle. "Come join OUR troop, attend meetings for 21 months and we will make you an Eagle!"" Contrary to one's conclusions here, MB's are not the same thing as a Webelos Pin. Gotta love the over-dramatization though. Keep it in mind that as I stated earlier, just because they earned their AOL they DID NOT cross over. They hung around the second year just for having fun. Like I said, just because one achieves the AOL or Eagle, their work in the Pack/Troop is not done! The comments only emphasize the need to correct this common error in thinking in most packs/troops. Like I tell all my boys both cubbing and scouting, just because a soldier makes the rank of general, it doesn't mean his career is over. "If the AOL is not important then why try to "give it" to the boy early?" I didn't "give" the boys anything other than the opportunity to earn it within a 12 month period, one week at a time. If the DL sets up the curriculum right, it is quite easy to do. 4 meetings for each pin? That's 12 pins right there. Add to that one pin for each of the outings, that's another 12 pins. Some of the pins didn't take any 4 meetings to accomplish and some of them like family life were done outside the meetings with their families. As a matter of fact, near the end of the year, there were some repeats so that some of the boys who had missed a session here or there the boys could spend time teaching them and getting them ready for the BG and the AOL ceremony coming up. "If it is important why not do it properly so the boy knows he has earned it according to the requirements established by BSA National?" The Pack leadership, the District, the council, nor the troop into which these boys crossed over ever questioned any of the process I followed and the troop was especially excited about receiving these boys, the majority of which eventually went on to Eagle in the troop. The point I was attempting to make and it was missed by some, was that just because one get's AOL at the BG banquet it is not mandatory for them to cross over! Wait a year and let the boys have some fun. All my boys crossed over AFTER HAVING WORN THEIR AOL for a year. Stosh

Emergency procedures should be taught BEFORE the accident rather than expecting them to miraculously know what to do naturally. Accidents draw looky-loos all the time. The boys are only acting like everyone else would have done without proper processes in place. Where were the PL's at this time? Why weren't they dealing with their patrols? Where was your SPL and ASPL? Maybe emergency preparation should be something more than just a MB class that the boys sit through to get credit for an Eagle requirement. In emergency situations, emotions run high and expectations are unjustly placed on the boys that haven't been properly taught. I wonder whether this is an issue of authority or an issue of the lack of emergency prep training? It doesn't sound like the boys were properly prepared to handle a true emergency. Obviously this in theory is what we are supposed to be teaching our boys. Maybe the first aid training we do should be understood as real training and not just requirement fulfillment. Stosh

It is very easy to get AOL in one year if one is having weekly den meetings. It allows for each pin to be presented in it's entirety once if not twice. This of course doesn't count the outings where more skills are added to the pot. Having earned the AOL the first year, it opens up all sorts of opportunities for catch up on the pins and/or more sophisticated outings. Stosh

Tell him he's needed to head up the plan for the big final outing of the den. The activity will be of his choice and he'll be the one deciding on all the fun stuff they will need to work into the activity. Without his help they might not be able to pull it off as well. Stosh