Stosh

I'm from small troops and it is our interpretation from the requirements vs. POR tenure that 1) The POR does not need to be all the same position. 2) The 6 months do not need to be consecutive A boy starts out as QM in the summer, wants to do football. QM Jun-Aug (3 months), Football Sep-Oct, then comes back as PL (Nov-Jan) of his patrol because the former PL took off for a school's theater production. I can cite one example of where @David CO system and philosophy would prepare the boys for the real world. The Military. If one drops out before their term expires they are arrested and incarcerated. Other than that, people are free to take on employment, volunteer work, and other activities for however they want, not some arbitrary number tossed out there for some requirements. For example, I got called out last night for a 37-unit apartment fire for the Red Cross response team. I wasn't on call..... but I went anyway. They have limits in the requirements for a reason. As far as the lessons on commitment are concerned. I have 5 boys, all doing POR's that have nothing to do with advancement. They are all under FC rank. Some have served well over a year in a position they like and the others like them there doing it. One doesn't need added adult rules to teach the boys commitment and responsibility with POR enlistment terms.

Hmmm.... let's see how that shakes out. 6 nights of camping for 1 week of summer camp. That comes to 42 nights of camping for the 7 years one is in Boy Scouts. That means they don't even do plop camping, they don't stray from the reservation, they still have flush toilets and nice showers and they can rack up maybe 30-35 MB's sitting at a picnic table. So, does this sound like the adventure promised in the brochure?

So much for team building on the patrol level..... It's strange how ingrained our efforts are to work against the patrol method in scouting.

Boys that have quit my troops generally have their mind made up, or have their mind made up for them by their parents, so no one-liner is going to work. It's not that we try, but we've had zero percent success with keeping boy in the group that don't want to be there.

I guess this would mean that either that year entails 2 rank advancements or it takes a scout 3 years to do Star ->Eagle? I have a small troop and our boys cover multiple POR's and they are all under First Class. They may be able to serve their 6 months in one position, but if that boy isn't doing his job, say PL, then he is replaced once the patrol decides on a PL that will do the job. That means he put in 2 months as PL and 4 months as QM. It doesn't say it has to be in all one POR. Requiring a boy to function for 12 months instead of the requisite 4 or 6 is adding to the requirements and holds the boys back on their advancement, unless the boy exactly times his rank advancement just right. That's not part of the requirements.

I have often approached the "guidelines" like I do YPT. The "guidelines" aren't there just for the protection of the scouts. They protect the adults just as much if not more. When BSA put's out a "guideline" they are saying, pay attention to this issue because it can be a problem if one is not careful. Sometimes common sense isn't as common as we would think. There are a number of scouters out there that simply do it "their way". Which leads us to the probably of anything going wrong. Most of the time, it's okay, but when things go South, the BSA warned them and it falls on the scouter who didn't listen. We live in a risky world, especially when we take scouts out into a environment they are not used to. This increases the risk and when one is planning activities the "guidelines" let everyone know BSA is aware of the risk and leaves common sense suggestions on how to deal with it. If one wishes to "bend" the "guidelines" to accommodate their unique situation, if all appropriate contingencies are in place, it's not recommended, but maybe the risks have been minimized for just that situation. Still, it's in the hands of mature scouters with a modicum of common sense to be prepared to handle those risk should they arise. BSA isn't going to be backing them up, you're on your own. We all have to live with the consequences of our decisions.

Yes, but they can't hike two days in a row. Our council camp has a Daniel Boone area of primitive camping that is about a mile hike in from the parking lot. It's on council property and help is no further away than any other council supported activity. Check with your council camp to see if they have such an area. most do. Of course for a bit of adventure for the boys, one doesn't need to take the direct route from the parking lot to the Daniel Boone area either and still stay on council property. When it comes to "packing it in" most of my boys rely on the troop trailer to get their plop equipment into summer camp site. Kinda defeats the purpose of a real adventure. I was an experienced scouter (ASM) when I took my Webelo boys on an outing to a primitive campout just before crossing over. It was a 10 minute paddle from the landing to an island. Each boy had a father with them. This canoe outing was the "war story" they carried with them until they got to go to BWCA and Philmont in Boy Scouts. A 10 minute paddle and digging latrine was more adventure than most troops out there that rely on plop camping and flush toilets. I would say that backpack prep, loading up the boys for a 15 minute hike into the woods and relying only on what they could carry would be an excellent adventure for Webelo boys. Hot dogs on a stick over the fire beat boiled dogs on a propane stove any day.

@4CouncilsScouter Okay, serious advice - Stick to the letter of the YPT law, it has nothing do do with the dynamics of the group, it's a CYA legal issue. With the ever increasing rate of divorce, YPT simply covers all the grey areas. We can debate the validity of such actions, but what it boils down to is the debate between two lawyers in front of a judge. After all YPT is silent on two female scouters taking a group of Boy Scouts camping. The biased hypocrisy is obvious. One male scouter and one female scouter is required only for co-ed activities.

Wow, I'm confused too! 1) Den ovrenights are allowed, but not on the weekend. That's strange, I did all my Webelos campouts on the weekend 25 years go. Maybe it's changed. I can't for the life of me figure out why the weekend would make a difference. 2) It looks like the Webelo boys can backpack but not in back country. They can day hike, but not two days in a row. Again, a chart to make it simple isn't that simple. We are in the process of trying not to encourage plop camping yet, can't introduce the boys to back packing except on the weekdays and can hike in, but not out. I guess as confused as I am, I'm not much help.

Welcome to the forum. If the only 2 females on the trip are with their fathers present? Call it a Cub Family Camp Activity and you're good to go. This whole gender issue thingy has basically made all the BSA's YPT rules obsolete.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Couldn't remember the buyer. Thanks.

It bothered me, as well, when my son dropped out of scouts when he as at Star rank. It surprised him that I did not. My focus was on helping all boys, not just my son.

I heard the rumor that Bass Pro was out of the running. Maybe that was something else.

If one were to check the laws in their own state they might discover a little loop hole available to kids today. In our state, all minors under the age of 18 are required by law to attend school. So, my daughters are homeschooling their children and for every year they advance faster than public school children and taking into account college credit in the AP offerings of the local colleges, one can literally get 1, 2, 3, or maybe all 4 years of college FREE (if they are Doogie Howser)! Even if they could only get ahead 2 years, that's close to $100,000 worth of college for free. Never take anything at face value, do your research! Otherwise, one has to pay for their ignorance.

Dedicated, trained, and functional TG, Instructor, PL, are all POR's that are necessary for implementing a successful NSP. Mixed aged patrols are hit or miss unless there is someone dedicated to TG, Instructors and experienced/dedicated PL's. The NSP doesn't need these resources WITHIN the patrol to be successful, An assigned TG will give his full attention to the NSP because he is NOT part of another patrol. The Instructors can be an older patrol member, but focuses his instruction temporarily on each activity for the new guys. A very experienced PL in the NSP will make a world of difference if he is focused on them rather than filling a hole waiting for the older patrols to invite him someplace else for an activity. The #1 reason NSP's are not functional and successful is because it takes older boys, focused and functionally serving their POR to make it happen. It can work, but most units rely on mixed patrols and somehow over the course of time, the new guys somehow through osmosis pick up what's necessary to be successful or drop out waiting for some future opportunity. At that age, day after tomorrow is far off in the future. They are boys that are focused on scouting NOW. Be Prepared to address it timely.

I was a 2nd Class scout, I graduated in the lower half of my HS class, I earned 2 tech school AA degrees in tech college, I earned a BS in a state university, I earned a M. Div. from a church seminary. I have held certification in EMT-A to help my community as a volunteer. I am trained and experienced in many different classifications with the American Red Cross. I am debt free and have been for 99% of my life. Of course retiring with a 7-digit saving's account didn't hurt one bit either considering I own 2 homes outright along with 5 cars all paid for. I never earned the Personal Finances MB, but I'm a PF MBC. I never listen to the advice du jour, especially coming from those that have never figured out the system. So, 'splain to me how it works in your world. The sky is blue in mine.

All I am saying is that as quickly as they have grown in just a few years, it shows a sense of competitive edge the BSA is ignoring. Without the policy changes of the BSA, these other organizations such as Royal Rangers, AHG, TL/USA, etc. are gaining momentum and BSA is losing it. The numbers now aren't significant, but they are changing. I would like to see BSA's number changing in the + column. Along with such school and community outdoor programs (my wife is now, as I write, doing school presentations for the local Parks/Rec in the local marshlands for hundreds of kids. Then there's KAMO, an organization locally that is taking on kids with an outdoor experience in mind. The local conservation clubs are opening up their doors to younger members, and the Venturing Crew I was trying to start was taken over by one of the local high schools and are doing the same thing as a club. Maybe TL/USA and AHG aren't the threat, but the ideas they promote along with many other groups IS becoming a threat.

I've tented in the upper Midwest in the winter. Lots of snow means one doesn't need to worry about holding down the corners a much. I have slept out under the starts most of the time because it's easier than trying to set up a tents when the ground is frozen. Ski poles holding up two corners of a poncho do just fine, cross them and it will lower the opening to cut down on the wind changes. It's not that difficult. Just remember, no bugs and no bears!

And one must also remember that WHICH college makes a big difference. 2 year local technical college.... boys and girls get to play on the A-team for two years instead of having to sit on the bench waiting for those later year opportunities. They get a degree in half the time and end up with trade skills that can bring in some rather large incomes once they graduate at age 20. As a welder how much he/she makes and you will know what I mean. 2 years of local college costs far less than a 4 year local college. 4 year local college... again one is playing the number's game. Start paying off one's loan at age 20 with large income trade skills or continue to run up the tab and hope one gets a job when done? Many 4 year college grads don't make as much as a master craftsman does.... ever! 4 year prestigious college.... Other than running up the bill, what's the big deal. A job that pays a bit more in the end? Masters/Doctorate..... Can I say, "Debt free at age 50 celebrations!!!!" It's time to take the Personal Management MB ... for real! And by the way, all one needs is a HS diploma for 2 year local technical college. They don't worry about Eagle credits, or volunteer work, or anything other than the diploma. If you haven't got one, they provide a GED as prep to get started.

I, too, view this as a money issue, not a programmatic issue. Varsity and Venturing are two areas that BSA have been struggling with for some time now. The numbers just aren't there. Well, if the LDS has boys that are paper scouts, then they are wasting their money on a program that their members just don't use. Why buy something no one is going to use? So it affects 180,000 paper scouts. That's no real loss of members other than on paper. While our council has quite a number of Cub and Boy Scout units, it can count Venturing units on one hand. Why are they casing after ghosts and why would anyone care of the ghosts disappeared....other than the fact that someone was paying for ghosts to be there in the first place. I don't see this as a loss of ACTIVE membership, nor do I see it as any loss of camps. After all, LDS boys from 11-14 will still need a summer camp to attend. And as we all know, the older scouts have fumes they need to address as well as school, jobs, family, etc. etc. and aren't attending the camps anyway. If I were the leader of an LDS unit and was a hard-core scouter, I would start a supplemental troop nearby that would take on the boys that really want to continue in scouting at their own expense. After all that's how everyone else is doing it now anyway!

If one were to read the requirement it states: So, in reading this, "others" do not necessitate them even being in Scouting. Yes, it could mean other scouts and scouters, but that's not what it says. If a project is to clean up a park, the candidate could be leading a group from his ecology club in high school. And where does it say an Eagle Project is a Scout Activity? It's an individual scout's activity. it is HIS project! I do historical research on the side. I have 2800 pages in a Word document that one of my scouts, who was like-minded as me, wanted to do a project that involved what I do. I gave him my research and he put together a project that the council Eagle Committee didn't want to approve initially but gave him the go-ahead anyway. He worked it out ON HIS OWN that it wasn't a project for me, but a project for the Veteran's Administration where he went out to the various cemeteries in the county and verified that veterans had proper markings on their graves. He put together a crew of friends from school, church and scouts to help him. He surveyed 4 different cemeteries and produced a report on 19 different graves that needed fixing. He turned in his report to the Veteran's Administration and wrote out 19 applications for new head stones. He did this on his own time, not scout activity time. The VA signed off on his project. The local media got wind of his project and had a photograph of him at a cemetery in full uniform that took up half the front page, second section, of the local newspaper. Within a week it showed up on the state wide newspaper from out of the state capitol, again on the front page of the second section. I do believe according to the comments from some on the forum, he broke every rule in the book at one time or another. But when the American Legion got wind of his work, they implemented a program to make sure that stones for veterans were surveyed every Memorial Day with the standards he had set up, Afterwards I asked if I could have a copy of his work for my research project, which he gladly provided. So, one must ask the question, did he show leadership? Did he FOLLOW the rules or did he strike out on his own and prove he had "shown leadership" in his project? Did I mentor, guide, direct, any of his project? Only when he had questions about my research, yes. For example, he did ask which stones to pay particular attention to. I advised War of 1812 veteran have the oldest stones so pay close attention to those because they skink into the ground and get hit by lawn mowers the most. Other than that, I didn't do anything other than participate as just another surveyor for his project as he directed me and others in the cemeteries. He had all the maps and locations identified and we just did as he instructed. I don't remember if any of the committee members from the unit volunteered to help out or not, but he had plenty of help anyway. I had no question in my mind this Eagle knew how to lead. By the way, there was never any need to have any adults around to "keep an eye" on anything. The only thing I kept my eye on was my map and the next veteran's grave I was looking for.

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your interest in serving our country. One of my scouts just graduated recently CG basics. Anyway, register, take the online YPT training and show up as you are able. When you get transfered, it'll cost you a buck to transfer your registration to a new unit. I think you can handle that. Who knows, you might get a shore-leave weekend and you could go out with the scouts instead of a pretty girl. Just sayin'.

And the last lesson? Problem solving 101. Make it work, don't give up, find a MB counselor to work it out, Plan patrol outings for the NSP of a neighboring troop. Win-Win. He's got the skill, put it together and make it happen. Oh, and by the way. If your son has been the caring, nurturing helpful leader you say he is, his buddies will bend over backwards to make it happen for him. Remember contrary to popular belief, getting someone to Eagle rank is more of a team effort than just getting "MY eagle" That's the beauty of Scouting many never see. Have him lay it out with his buddies and let them help.

@Phrogger You've been snookered. This is not a Boy Scout Troop, they are not using the Patrol Method other than in name only. Joining the committee will only agitate you and will do nothing for the son. Start shopping. What you described is exactly why I as ASM with no son in the troop any longer moved on to another troop. After 13 years of banging my head against the wall, I had had enough. I would drive 40 miles round trip to be part of a different troop and it was well worth the extra gas.

@desertrat77 I think one of the reasons AHG and TL/USA are coming on strong is not so much the faith basis of the program, it's because it's going back to the basics as you wish BSA would be doing. I was the one who started the "Classic Scouting" thread that strayed off course rather quickly. I don't think people want the Lombardi approach. After all, how does one drag GBB out of the closet and admit he had something good going when you've been re-writing history to exclude him for all these years.