Stosh

I totally agree that 16 people is a long stretch to take care of for any adult, and for a boy it is way too many! Thus I have structured the troop so that no one person is responsible for more than 7-8 boys. I feel this is a decent number for any aspiring youth leader to handle. I will concede that the reason most troop are limited to 30-35 scouts is because that is about how many a single adult-led program can handle. It takes a veteran SM to run a program that big. If it was a policy that the Cub Master had to run the whole program, the numbers in Cub packs would drop dramatically as well. But there is no need to run the program under such constraints, boy-led, patrol-method allows for the dissemination of leadership and as long as no grouping exceeds 7-8 people, things will always remain in managable proportions regardless of how big the overall unit becomes. Again look at the Cub design, can a pack take on 3 new dens overnight? Sure 36 new boys and hardly a hiccup. 4 dens? Sure 48 new cubs overnight? Piece of cake! What one doesn't understand is that the CM coordinates dens, he doesn't run them, the DL's do. Well in a boy-led, patrol-method unit, it works the same way so size isn't the issue anymore. The only difference I would envision is the patrols limited to 8 whereas a den could possibly be 12-15 depending on the experience of the DL. Obviously adults can maintain the group better than an aspiring new PL. Stosh

As I mentioned before, there is no penalty for infractions in the US Flag Code, nor is there a penalty for infractions and/or reinterpretations of BSA policy, so knock yourselves out doing it any which way one wishes. I really have no vested interest in this thread other than someone asked the question and I provided BSA documentation on the issue. Until I hear differently, I'll use the existing publications provided by BSA to teach my boys. Others can do as they wish. Stosh

It might be helpful if one could provide where in BSA publications the existance of any such "activity uniforms". Seriously, I have looked for it, but find no such definition. Until such is provided, it might be well to promote what BSA does say is the official uniform. I for one could care less what others may define as a uniform. If one wishes to salute while wearing swim trunks with the BSA mile swim patch on it, go for it. If a boy wears the BSA shorts with a patrol t-shirt, does that count, how about a white shirt, surely that is no different than wearing an official shirt with blue jeans. Half a uniform is half a uniform whether it be the top or bottom. Until BSA states differently, I'm going to teach my boys what the BSA policy states: "Official Uniforms Clause 2. The official uniforms authorized as evidence of official relationship to the Boy Scouts of America shall be those approved by action of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America from time to time, as illustrated and correctly described in the handbooks, catalogs, and other official publications of the Boy Scouts of America." Others may do as they wish. Stosh

Whoa! At ease, gentlemen, it's time to loosen one's shorts. If one were to read the post and quit assuming some sinister motive, they would see: "The Official US Flag Code explicitly states there are absolutely no consequences for non-compliance to its statements." Does this statement indicate my personal opinion on it? As stated on other threads, when one goes hunting to trash someone, sometimes they have to make up stuff that just isn't there to do so. Obviously this seems to be the case here. Just so those out there that are all upset about this, they can sleep easy tonight because I have said on more than one occasion to my boys that the flag ceremonies they perform are the most important thing they will do that day. Are we comforted now? Ok? Good, let's go on with the other problem that speaks more directly to the thread. If one were to go to the official on-line catalog of National BSA one will find that there are inspection sheets available that determine, in somewhat clear wording what the acceptable uniform of the BSA is comprised of. It has shirts, shorts, pants, socks, etc. The BSA catalog then goes so far as to sell these items under the category entitled UNIFORMS. Without too much interpretation on my part, I would find it somewhat within the boundaries of basic logic to assume that these items are to be viewed by the membership of BSA as the official uniform. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3 Then under a different section entitled APPAREL they list action shirts. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=APPAREL&C3=ASHIRTS&C4=&LV=3 I would under normal logic conclude that if the action shirts were to be viewed as uniforms they would place them under the uniform section. "Official Uniforms Clause 2. The official uniforms authorized as evidence of official relationship to the Boy Scouts of America shall be those approved by action of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America from time to time, as illustrated and correctly described in the handbooks, catalogs, and other official publications of the Boy Scouts of America." With this brief by explicit research one can easily conclude that the use of Class-B uniforms is not sanctioned by BSA and any variations from the official uniform is unacceptable. Also the categorizations in the official catalog would show that the action shirt is not an official uniform and should not be promoted as such. If one were to also read pages 12-13 of the BS Handbook 11th Edition, it explicitly states what the official uniform is and in a separate paragraph indicates that scouts may wear troop or camp t-shirts while wearing official pants or shorts. This mixing of non-official apparel with official uniform parts is allowed but does not mean this is in anyway an official uniform. I love the way they say non-uniform t-shirts can be worn with official pants/shorts, but deftly sidestep the issue of wearning gym shorts with official shirts. Now there's a PC statement/omission if I ever saw one. So, going back to the original thread, there is no such thing as a Class-B uniform, whether it be a troop t-shirt or BSA action shirt. Saluting using the scout salute should be done while in full official uniform only. When not in official uniform, it is proper to use the civilian (non-uniformed) "salute" of removing one's hat and placing one's hand over one's heart. This gesture is equally sincere and respectful as a salute while in official uniform. To educate one's youth that it is appropriate to salute the flag while wearing their "Class-B" uniforms may in fact be a breach of both the US Flag Code as well as BSA policy. Fortunately for all involved, there is no penalty for either, but if one wishes to do it "according to Hoyle", there is a little research and education that needs to take place. I surely hope that the appropriate references will assist in helping the readers understand that this is not my personal opinion, but just collected research from official BSA publications. Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

Given my recent summer camp experience, I find it very difficult to not agree with many of the premises and problems that Kudu points out. I have tried very hard to establish a boy-led, patrol-method approach to my troop in a similar fashion as taught by WB, etc. However, in practice it would seem that there isn't really much support for the "program". It is as if the theory of instruction doesn't match the reality of execution. I had 16 boys in a 40 person campsite at camp and couldn't get my boys more than 20' apart from each other. If I'm going to set up a boy-led, patrol-method program for next summer's camp, I will need the whole camp for the whole week all by myself. I anticipate 50-60 Webelos cross-over scouts added to my 25 I have at the present time. This means I'll ideally have approximately 75-85 boys attending which I believe is larger than the last WB class taught at the camp. If I were to suggest setting it up in WB fashion, I am almost certain the very first comment from the camp/council staff will be the suggestion to consolidate patrols into the sites and fill them to their recommended capacity. The frustration arises in the fact that there is more pressure against the curriculum of WB than there is support for it. I think this might be some of the concern from the more traditionalist scouters out there. It may also be one of the reasons why so many of the well-intended SM's finally give up and go back to troop-method scouting. I guess with all the hype for boy-led, patrol-method out there, there should be a more orchestrated effort to support units that would like to give it a sincere try. It shouldn't have to be a SM's job to educate more than just his boys about the benefits of BL-PM scouting. I think that about the only thing that other scout traditionalists and I don't match up exactly on is the principle of Servant Leadership. I am under the premise that SL is the basic building block upon which leadership is built and not just "part of" a bag of magic tricks that teach leadership skills. I guess the only difference I see might be that SL is an attitude and Leadership Development methods are the tools that enable that caring to work within the various groups. It works for me and my groups because the leadership is more readily accepted by the members if they know that their leaders are genuinely concerned about their welfare and development and not just using manipulative management techniques to get the job done. This is why I use the dynamics of the troop staff supports the Patrols rather that directs them. The first and often time only question they ask of themselves is: "How can I better assist the patrols be better at what they do?" My troop officers never think in terms of what the PL's need to be told to get the job done. For me the PL is the highest ranking office. One doesn't tell their boss what needs to be done, they offer their services to help them accomplish their tasks. Stosh

One must also remember that the temptation to conform to other youth organizations that appear to be successful isn't always the best course of action. BSA has a traditional core belief system that would need to be removed in order be more competitive. Membership requirements/expectations would need to be removed, and program changes to conform to the expectations of the "customers". So far I have been encouraged by the BSA's reluctance to do such things. The BSA program was, is and hopefully will continue to be, different than the others. Scouting offers a viable alternative to many of the culturally acceptable programs offered today. Some programs are offered to keep kids out of trouble; others so that kids can be involved in competitive sports; and still more for youth with special interests. If scouting were to change to compete with these other organizations, it would lose its unique identity while at the same time try to compete in a game of someone else's design and forte. The reason scouting has lasted as long and is respected in the way it is, is because it is NOT like all the rest of the youth organizations out there. For some people, playing sports is important. The drawback however is that one can play sports for only so long in life and then its over. For other people, activities and trips are important, as long as some adults do all the work and planning, they'll show up with their $$'s and life will be entertaining and good. And still others have the non-commitment approach to youth activities where the kids show up, hang out for a while and then go home, having gained an afternoon of non-boredom. Some of these organizations teach valuable lessons such as sportsmanship, winning is everything, hard work at fundraising will get one a nice trip, etc. But scouting offers a very wide, traditional core of opportunities and values that most parents find attractive and will enroll their children in. However, if down the road the kids are not getting that from the program, or the kids are able to convince the parents otherwise, then they will leave and in large numbers. With a world full of soccer-moms and Little League dad's, we aren't going to win with all of the boys out there, and if everyone continues to promote the numbers game instead of the program they will continue to be frustrated and/or disappointed. Not every boy has what it takes to be a scout, nor do they often have the opportunity to even try. I would think it more beneficial to think quality rather than quantity when it comes to scouting. Just stop and imagine for a moment. What if the recent tornado in Iowa had hit a YMCA, Boys & Girls Club, or Church camp instead of a BSA camp with trained boys and leaders who knew how to handle themselves? As tragic as it may have been, the deaths due to moderate to severe injuries would have been far greater. Everytime I teach a boy about first aid, or emergency prep, or leadership resourcefulness, I am more satisfied than if I had taught him about the rules to baseball, or strategy of basketball, or playing a musical instrument. If I go down with a medical problem anywhere in the world, I'm hoping that if I only have one bystander is a scout and not the star high school football quarterback. Is my bias showing? :^) Stosh

The Official US Flag Code explicitly states there are absolutely no consequences for non-compliance to it's statements. In other words, one can fly the flag in a rain storm at night with no spot light on it. One doesn't have to salute it, honor it, or even notice it and it's ok. One doesn't have to take their hat off, nor do they need to say the Pledge out loud. One can salute the flag with 1, 2, 3, or 4 fingers and there is no reprisal. One can have the Flag touch the ground, wear it as a patch on the seat of our pants or cut a hole in it and wear it as a poncho. However, BSA as an organization, has a standard they would like to maintain in regards to the Flag, but again there are no reprisals except what some SM might wish to stomp all over some kid about. In the BSA organization there is no such thing as a class-B uniform, so in fact it does not exist, it shouldn't be assumed to be one. As a Boy Scout can he salute the Flag with the scout salute while wearing a white t-shirt and blue jeans, aka class-B uniform? Sure, why not, no one's going to send him off to prison for it. If our boys are not wearing the FULL BSA field uniform, they are requested to use the non-uniform salute of removing hat and placing it over their heart. Do they always comply? Nope, but then they don't comply about a lot of other things as well. :^( Stosh

All of this issue with the SSN is basically irrelevant to the issue of background checks. For many years my SSN was my driver's license number, it was the number on my hospital records, my school records, and who knows whatever else there is out there. My bank account number is given out every time I write a check. My debit card number is handed over to more restaurant employee's than I can count. And after all this people are worried about the BSA having my SSN on the leaders' application? One needs to get a proper perspective on their irrational fears. Have I had my numbers stolen? Yep, and it's fixable until the next time it gets stolen. One can buy insurance to protect themselves against this kind of theft, just like they protect their health costs, their savings costs, their lives, their homes, etc. etc. etc. To put it into perspective, banks have been trying for hundreds of years to keep people from stealing from them, and well, they still get robbed. Go figure. Do I worry about my money in the bank? Nope, it's insured. Do I worry about my credit? Nope, my credit rating is 0. Do I worry about my SSN? Nope, it's insured. "Be Prepared" is more than a motto, it's a lifestyle for some. Stosh

It is always difficult to express one's ideas on a open forum such as this. The secure feeling of anonimity emboldens some because they know the other person out there can't punch them in the nose. But with this being said, a certain amount of courtesy is often dissolved in a misunderstood or not very clarified comment on the forum. If one can't make a significant comment on the forum in response to someone, it is far easier to discredit the person making the post than it might be to critique the comment. This always makes for a great flame on that person, the person gets away with it because they know their chances of getting kicked off the forum is slight, and they can walk away thinking they have done everyone a great service by trashing this other person's ideas. I have been on internet forums for about as long as the internet as been around, am owner of many forums myself, moderated many others, and in scouting far longer than that. Although I know there are those who will trash my comments, but I also know there are hundreds of lurkers out there that can see through this kind of tactic and will retain some of my comments as useful for their situation. It really doesn't take much for sincere scouters on this forum to quickly notice those who are unfriendly, discourteous and unkind. They have been trained to do this with quick adeptness. After a while a person's comments are being read with a biased slant that no matter how hard a person tries to clarify their points, they will always be misread (sometimes on purpose) and the flames begin. Stosh

I guess I'm a little stuck-in-the-mud kinda person. I have only three rules for my scouts 1) Safety First, 2) Look and Act like a Scout, and 3) Have Fun. When it comes to #2 I like my boys to have enough pride in their unit to make an effort to look like a scout. Now that may not always imply full uniform, but when the activity calls for a more relaxed dress code, it still should reflect a sense of ownership in the scouting program. If they wish to wear 4-H, Boy & Girls Club, school sports and other competitive organizations, it reminds me that even my business casual I wear to work does not allow me to wear a shirt with a logo of our competition on it. There's some truth to the idea that "the clothes make the man". I feel different when I wear different clothing. I wouldn't show up at church in blue jeans and a t-shirt, nor would I show up with a suit and tie to scouts. If boys wish to wear non-scout t-shirts at a scouting event, I am always wondering why that boy finds it necessary to show everyone some kind of clever joke, sports logo, or some other form of Madison Avenue gimmick on their clothing other than Scouting. If one is that embarassed about it, maybe they are in the wrong group. When I have a boy wearing a non-scout t-shirt, for example, a school t-shirt, I simply ask if they would be willing to wear their scout t-shirt to school? If they answer no, then there's something serious wrong about how that scout views their attitude towards scouts. Boys who find it difficult to wear a scout t-shirt at a scout event must also have serious problems with wearing their uniform as well. Stosh

I guess I'm one of those who live in the past, try to recreate my youth, or whatever, yet my historically contrived program seems to be working, kids are joining up and they are doing a lot more than they ever expected. Maybe there's something back then that has changed today that shouldn't have. Stosh

If BSA only has hammers and the job calls for screwdrivers, one can successfully get that screw flush with the wood surface if they pound hard enough and long enough, but I still think that in the long run most BSA camp knives still have a screwdriver blade that has worked well for many years. I'm finding the traditional methods seem to be inspiring my boys better than the standard program as it currently stands. I have my suspicions as to why that might be, but as long as it's working, I'm going to use them. Stosh

Sorry for the prolonged wait for an answer to the question. It would seem that when one goes from 5 boys, adult-led, troop-method to 25 boys boy-led, patrol-method, one doesn't have the luxury to having everything right there at the snap of one's finger. In the past 6 months, getting 20 new scouts ready for camp was about all we could handle, however, one of the patrols did put together their own chuck box and the unit had one in their trailer. That meant we did make it through the process rather well. We would love to bring our own equipment, but it takes money. The original 5 boys last fall didn't raise enough money to outfit 5 times as many boys that suddenly appeared from Webelos cross-over this past winter. The troop hadn't taken on any boys from Webelos for 3 years running. I'm also assuming when most new scouts come into a troop there is equipment that has been collected from prior scout fundraisers, however, that can't be assumed across the board. It didn't rain and we were in a grove of trees so we didn't need any tarps. The boys came prepared with double coolers, one for regular food and one for chilled/iced food. I guess the original point I was trying to make was that when I was last at this camp every campsite had one or two chuck boxes in the sites that no one every really used anyway. I guess over time they were destroyed and never replaced because the troops ate as a whole in the mess hall. By the way, the lack of equipment didn't seem to hamper the boy's enjoyment of this year's activities. >>> different vein >>> For all those out there who are interested in patrol-method summer camp, check it out before one goes. The booby-traps we ran into were quite a surprise at times. 1) If the unit eats in the mess hall as a troop they will get all the necessary program information, activity schedules, special programs, etc. at meal time. If the unit chooses to cook as patrols in the campsite, they will hear nothing. 2) If one wishes to have any patrol autonomy recognition from the camp staff, work hard on winning them over they are not prepared to deal with them. To them a troop of 3 patrols is viewed as 3 times the work. 3) Even if one gets the biggest campsite in the camp, it won't make any difference. We got the biggest campsite for our 16 boys (site was rated for 40 boys) and yet the site was basically packed with numerous tents that were just sitting empty, yet we were no more than 20' apart between the 3 patrols. 3) Campsite inspection will be judged as a troop unless one makes a fuss and has the inspectors break it down by patrol. (See #2 above) 4) Campfire skits were assigned to a troop unless one insists skits by patrols or one won't participate. (See #2 above) 5) The staff will continually "suggest" merging patrols so "they will have enough boys" to do the activity. (See #2 above) 6) If one does things as patrols it may be construed as "not following" directions and one would/could be penalized for it. Friday night at camp, at flags, we lined up as patrols and the staff member setting the order in which troops were to move into the mess hall asked our boys if it was their first time in the mess hall. They said yes. All the other troops went in and got their tables and seating and our patrols (picked last) got whatever was left over and had to sit in the visiting parents section of the hall. 7) By the end of the week one will be worn down to the point where it is easier to "do your own thing" rather than participate in many of the camp activities. The boys are considering an out-of-council camp next year that claims to be more patrol-friendly. Stosh

Gotta love this stuff. After 7 pages of discussion the answer still alludes the forum. A unit can decide what it's uniform is, irregardless of the standard inspection protocol and when it comes to saluting, ignores the official US flag code altogether. Let me sum it up: Do what you want to do, because no one does it the same anyway. People can't even come up with a consensus of what a scout uniform is anyway and when all is said and done, it's not required anyway. If one does it sincerely, surely it must be ok. And let's all be honest, one isn't going to change their own tradition no matter what one says on the forum. It does however emphasize how many different "official" ways it's being done all over the country. Stosh

We had an interesting experience at camp this past week in regards to the uniform. The camp decided to have closing flags one day with no one in uniform. Two boys who did have uniform shirts on took them off to be part of the color guard. My boys (in full uniform) noticed this and commented they didn't really appreciate the gesture. Stosh

Just got word from the camp director, they don't have 4 patrol boxes for us to use. The camp maybe has two! That's two patrol boxes for the WHOLE CAMP! Needless to say we're going to have a rough go with Patrol Method at our camp. The boys will still do their patrol thing, but they're going to have to fight with the camp the whole way. I asked for 4 dining flys, they had none. They have 2 pavillions in the camp site for 40 boys. There's a plan! They did allow us to have anything we could find in the old mess hall that went defunct this past winter and that should be ok because they went out first class on the new mess hall and bought everything new for them. We have access to the old walk in cooler for our food. I guess their idea of patrol method is a far cry from what I was thinking. But my boys will win out in the long run, they're looking forward to a great week in spite of what the camp can do to screw it up. Stosh

I think you answered your own question. If you were bored and figured it was a waste of time to attend, ask yourself what it would take to make it interesting. Surely anything other than what you are doing now would be an improvement. If you want more outings, go on more outing. If you want different scenery, pick a new scout camp to go to, someplace far away, etc. If first aid for advancement and Merit Badge wasn't enough, bring in someone from the Red Cross and teach some real indepth stuff. It sounds like your buddies feel the same way, just get together and brainstorm your next adventure. Stosh

There is a 3 month wait between each palm. If the boy wishes to get credit for the 5 extra MB's he has earned he had better get his Eagle 3 months before he turns 18. In the Scout Handbook, p. 449, "NOTE: Scouts who earn three Palms can continue to earn additional Palms in the same order - bronze, gold, and silver. All requirements for Eagle Palms must be completed before a candidate's 18th birthday." Stosh

Over the past 15 years I no longer remember how many times I have lost them. Eventually they show up again, but if one thought them as important one would think they could take better care of them. With summer camp coming up Sunday, I guess I'll have to make an effort to find them again. :^) Stosh

I prefer the knee socks because I'm reactive to poison ivy, and I really don't like my legs all scratched up when I'm hiking in moderate brush. I also prefer the gaiters, (I wear the military now) that seals off the pant cuff from ticks (we're in Lymes country big time). I wish some of the la-de-dah were omitted and a little more emphasis placed on practicality brought back. I really don't see much practicality in pants that have zip off legs that by the end of the weekend, no scouts have pants that have matching leg lengths. I like the red topped socks but they do look a tad strange when the boys tuck their long pants into them as a substitute for gaiters. My boys have been picking up old collarless green scout shirts to wear as their work uniform. They look consistant, have a nice shirt and they're cheaper than t-shirts from the trading post. Stosh

Insert 00 steel wool pad as tinder, put a long wire into the wool about 1" apart on the two open terminals. Build the fire around it as one would normally do. Wax dipped kindling will burn longer and keep the flame going as well to ignight the next level of wood. When it's time to light the fire, touch the other two ends of the wire to a 12 volt car battery. If one wishes to add a dramatic "explosion" in the fire later on for effect, toss in a pinch of iron filings. Steel wool and iron filings are just about as explosive as gunpowder and one doesn't have to worry about the guys from Homeland Security showing up at your door wondering why you're buying gunpowder. Which,by the way is legal as long as the shipment is less than 25#. Our crew buys a case every other year. If one wishes a dramatic fire. Start a ring of wood about 4' in diameter octagon shape around a fairly good sized starter teepee fire, and keep adding Lincoln Log (cabin) around it enclosing it into a cone shape. Then go two and two up to about 6'. The high chimney effect will draw that fire and the results should be an very intense 8-12' fire. The top logs on the chimney will actually turn to glowing embers because of the flue draft of the fire and eventually the whole thing will collapse on itself into the fire ring. Big time embers all over the place. Usually the heat will keep the boys 12-15' away so as to not worry about them, just the forest. When one needs advice from from a pyro, gotta ask the pro's. Did you know that by adding flour to your gunpowder you can stretch it and still do a good job with the bang and smoke? Just a little advice for the budding arsonists out there. Yes, I did play with matches as a child. Stosh

A conference implies a discussion, not question and answer session. Maybe a question or two ice-breakers to get the discussion going might be appropriate, but a series of interview questions doesn't fit my style much. Most of my SM conferences, either Eagle or otherwise are nothing more than "chats" that I have with the boys over the course of my time with them. Sitting at campfires, planning a menu, riding to an event, whatever. I don't think many of my boys actually know the real time or date of their SM conferences, it doesn't say it has to be the last thing before the BOR. It can happen any time during the time the boy is working on rank, and it doesn't have to happen just once. Stosh

I guess I just don't see what all the hassle is about this issue. The requirements spell it out with sufficient leeway to make it happen for the boy. If he's elected to a POR and doesn't do the job, get him out of there and assign him to a POR that he can do the job on. If that doesn't work out have the SM assign him a leadership project that the SM knows he will be successful at and be done with it. If this process takes 6 months, so be it. During that time he was actively processing his leadership skills finding out what he is capable of doing and what he might need work on for the next rank. A sensitive SM will be able to assess what's best for the boy and the ultimate judge of the advancement will be the SM anyway. If the SM knows the boy and knows this is going to be a problem for him, he should seek some alternative options so the boy has a reasonable chance of suceeding. I have a boy right now that is lining up outside speakers for the patrols/troop for the drug program and citizenship requirements. The boy has difficulty focusing, but has struggled along with this, making the calls, organizing the calendar and pushing himself beyond what he normally does. When the speakers come, he will stand up and introduce them and then his advancement will be complete. It may be a very small step for most of us adults, but it is a big step for this boy on his first POR requirement. This is one reason why I don't always back the election process. Many times the boys are elected for all the wrong reasons and it normally doesn't work out well for anyone in the long run. If one notices the carpool driver has fallen asleep at the wheel, someone might want to poke him long before they get to the ditch. If the SM is ultimately responsible for signing off the requirement, he can design the situation so the boy has a chance to suceed. Stosh

The latrines at our camp are poured concrete reinforced structures that will/should hold up any falling trees. It's a little something in each campsite. Going to a large structured dining hall with lots of windows and no basement didn't offer me much reassurance. Living in a tornado prone area, it's always a do your best proposition. My heart goes out to the families of the recent storm, but this kind of thing can happen any time or any place in this part of the country. I've been through tornadoes, lightning strikes (15' away on Mt. Baldy just inside the treeline), blizzards and earthquakes, none left me feeling very impressed, lucky, yes, impressed, no. Fortunately these boys took their Scouting seriously and learned what they needed to do when the time arrived. From the reports coming in, some of the boys survived only because their buddies knew what to do. Stosh

If a boy gets elected based on popularity and possibilities of leadership that that may imply, I'm a firm believer in an occasional vote of confidence whenever the boys would like it. Sitting around with a PL who doesn't do the work for 6 months waiting for elections is a total waste of time, waste of leadership potential, disruption to the program and frustration to the boys. There is nothing in the BSA literature that states that the POR has to be in the same position, or consecutive months. Either do the job according to the needs of those who voted you in, or be ready to do something different when they vote you out. Leadership is something that needs to be developed for a purpose. If the only purpose is to attain rank advancement, then there's something wrong with the program, but if leadership is there for the betterment of the troop, then the boys deserve the best. They should have the opportunity to decide, by vote, who's best to lead them. Why are the adults involved in this process? If the boys vote out their PL, SPL, etc. why is this even a discussion between SM and parent? If it's boy-led, maybe the boys ought to be leading and deciding who's leading. For those who will challenge me on my appointing of PL's in my NSP's, each of those boys are fully aware of the fact that even if the SM assigned them, it's up to the PL's to keep themselves there. Stosh