Stosh

I have a mixed bag troop and have had no problems along these lines. Stosh

Even when everything goes right, sometimes things go terribly wrong. http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2008/07/24/news/01dewhirst.txt Stosh

Well, we did 1) attend all the adult leader meetings, 2) our SPL attended all SPL meetings, 3) we were the only troop in full uniform for flags (there was only one campsite further away from the parade grounds than us and it was populated by another patrol-method, in site cooking troop and they did not attend any flag ceremony at all during the week) and 4) we didn't know what we were missing until one of our leaders attended the same camp on a different week with a troop that ate in the mess hall did we realize what we missed out on. Yes, we have solved the problem, we will be going out of council next year. That decision was arrived at by the boys, not the adult leaders. They had come to that decision even before we left the camp. Stosh

I realize this thread is under the "uniforms" section, but does it really benefit anyone to air their dirty laundry here? Stosh

Double full registration is necessary in some cases. I am a troop SM and a crew CA. In order for me to receive full information on both programs I cannot dual register because my secondary registration doesn't get me full information all the time. Thus, I double register, with the same name and receive two different numbers. However, if I were to join up with two crews, this process would not be necessary, in that case I would dual register. Stosh

I think it's central region. I sent in my permit last year for summer camp out of state, 6 month's early and with last minute expedition, phone calls and threats by our council personnel, central region faxed the permit to summer camp after we left Wisconsin and before we arrived in Wyoming. It would seem that one has to hold their feet to the fire before they come through in some cases. This year, we started out with major threats and had our permit within 3 weeks. Stosh

Sorry, a 78% annual retention rate is definitely nothing to be proud of. That means that over the whole of Scouting if 100 Tigers register, only 8 of them will be around at age 17. If applied only to Boy Scouts, only 29 would be around at age 17. If a business ran on a customer retention rate that low, they'd be out of business in no time. And the numbers I gave in my example reflect this huge loss of boys over the course of multiple years. LisaBob's right. If one has a great program, even if they don't promote it, the kids will find out about it and/or better yet stay with the program. Some kids who take school sports stay active in that program well into their adult years. Some kids who do theater/drama in school stay active in that well into their adult years. What's up with Scouting? Why can't we keep them at least through the program, let alone the few that will stay active well into their adult years? I sincerely believe the program and the quality of the program is far superior to most of the programs offered kids at that age. However, the presentation, execution and delivery of that program is not retaining the boys. If it ain't workin' try something else. If it is workin' for you, don't mess with it. Stosh

My boys know that they won't be seriously considered for DC unless they have had PL and APL of the NSP experience. The DC's routinely move into TG with their den when they come back into the troop leadership. Only the best get recommended for DC because these are the boys that will be the lead PR men to assist these boys coming into Scouts. Like TG's these DC's are the most respected boys in the troop, those that can really mentor and guide. A commitment of 1 year is expected as a first time DC and the boy is to make every effort of doing well as a DC AND qualify for the National DC Award. If this is too much work for the boy, then he isn't up to the standards of being a good DC. Not everyone is suited for such an important position and not everyone will get offered the chance. Those with NSP PL experience are usually looking for the challenge and usually do quite well as DC. Like I said, I know boys in my former unit that put in 2-3 years of DC experience and loved every minute of it. A good DC can make or break the Webelos crossover and first year in the NSP process. Every DC who chooses not to be the TG for the NSP is offered the chance to go back and do another den. The DC and former DC's are some of the best scout leaders I have ever worked with. Stosh

I had an interesting conversation with one of my leaders this past weekend. He has just gotten back from his second week of scout camp. He is dual registered in two units because his boys chose two different units, one boy-led, patrol-method and the other adult-led, troop-method. When he went with me, we did patrol-method style of camping the week with cooking in the campsite, etc. This second week he attended he went with the other unit that had their meals in the brand new fantastic, etc. etc. mess hall. He was totally blown away by what we had missed by not being in the mess hall. He conveyed the fact that totally no information for the boys was available except during the gatherings in the mess hall. So much for the patrol-method of summer camp. Yes, this was our council camp, and yes, we will not return next year for the program we didn't get. There are a number of patrol-method camps in the area and there is no reason why we won't be a lot happier elsewhere. BTW, I'm still after 5 weeks, still trying to figure out whether or not my boys earned their MB's and what they accomplished in the NSP Brown Sea program. The records we got are incomplete, inaccurate and simply unusable. I'm having to retest the boys on every single requirement to see if they did their work and/or taking their word for doing it. Was it as bad as my rant states? Sure, boys who didn't go to camp were listed as having earned MB's. Gotta love this stuff..... It was the worst camp experience I have had for a number of years, and oh, yeah, this is the first time we've camped in the council camp in precisely the same number of years. No, it's not always poor training on the part of the unit leadership, sometimes it's the council itself that isn't providing a BSA program for it's boys and/or penalizing those that try. Thanks for the opportunity to vent. Stosh

I find retention far more productive than recruiting. When one already has a boy "in the program", it is generally easier to keep him than go find a new one. Every salesman will agree that retaining customers is easier than finding new ones. With that being said, one must also realize that most scout troops do a terrible job at retention. Whether it be losing them at Webelos cross-over or after a year or two of "programming problems" there seems to be a big loss in membership along the way. Also keep it in mind that all those former scouts may be commenting to their friends why they left which would make recruiting efforts even that much more difficult. While it is only playing with numbers, keep it in mind that Cub Scout Packs generally are far larger in numbers than Boy Scout Troops. Cub Scouting also only covers a 5 year span of ages and Boy Scouts a 7 year span of ages. If retention was a focus, one would think that there should be more boys in Boy Scouts than in Cub Scouts. Unfortunately that is not the case. As a matter of fact, Boy Scout Troops are significantly smaller than their feeder packs indicating they do a very poor job of retention. Let's take a pack of 50 boys. That would average out to 10 boys per den. If they all crossed over and were retained for the full 7 years of Boy Scouts, the Troop that is being fed by this pack should have 70 Boys in it. That also means a Pack of 100 Cubs should have 140 Scouts in the Troop. So where do those 100 Cubs go when they don't join up with the 40 member Troop? If T4Eagle has only 15 boys, that means they are on average only retaining 2 Cubs per year. I'm sure his "mistake" of relying on just one feeder Cub Pack provides more boys than that each year. Thus the question needs to be asked, what is happening to so many boys already in scouting to turn away from Scouting? Don't just look at the symptoms of the problem, look at the causes! If one wishes to really know the cause of their problem, go to every scout drop-out and ask them seriously why they left. If the problems they identify are corrected, they may in fact even return to check out the new program. If one works on that problem, recruiting will be unnecessary on the troop level because it would only take recruiting on the Cub level to feed the program. I have heard some valid hints amongst the posters on this issue, and it doesn't sound promising for the future of many Troops. If one runs a good quality, uniquely Boy Scouting program, retention will improve and one's numbers will grow. If the Troop is doing the same-old, same-old of turning the boys off, then the problem will never go away regardless of how much recruiting one does. Stosh

I've never been in a position where I have had to send a boy home. Stosh

I have always thought that boys like this would best be benefitted by a scout program, but when there is no learning, no development, no growth, no progress, it's time to cut them free before their actions ruin it for the other scouts, which seems to be the case with this unit. One of the problems with discipline with these boys is that it has to be consistent and it has to be upheld. The boys pushed the envelop and the adults buckled. They are just as much to blame as the boys. Empty threats of discipline are just that, empty threats and the boys realized that, thus the second year of camp was on par with the first. I had a boy (son of former SM) in my new troop that was responsible for many years of Webelos cross-overs going to other troops or not continuing on in scouting. When I became SM, I didn't back down, laid out the processes of how the troop would operate, and treated the boy with firm respect. The boy has turned into one of my best scouts. It's possible, difficult, but possible. Remember, the boys are not taking responsibility for their actions and it's no one's fault but their own. If the committee is not holding them to this responsibility, then they are to be included in the blame. If one is not part of the solution, they must be part of the problem. Stosh

Those councils who tend to complain about units not being "loyal" to the council's camp are generally running a camp program that doesn't compete with what other camps are going better. No one goes OOC unless they believe/know the OOC camp is superior in some way over their own camp. Why else would they go? I have $200 to spend on camp, why shouldn't I be allowed to be THRIFTY and get the best bang out of my buck by going to what I believe is the best camp for my dollar? For years I believed our local council was the best. Things changed and we went elsewhere. This past year we gave the local council a look-see and we have since decided that next year we will again go OCC. Stosh

Do the following: Explain why BB and pellet air guns must always be treated with the same respect as firearms. Doesn't need a NRA/BSA instructor for this requirement. Describe how you would react if a friend visiting your home asked to see your or your family's firearm(s). See above. Explain the need for and use and types of eye and hearing protection. See above. Explain the main points of the laws for owning and using guns in your community and state. See above. Explain how hunting is related to the wise use of renewable wildlife resources. See above. Successfully complete a state hunter education course, or obtain a copy of the hunting laws for your state, then do the following. Explain the main points of hunting laws in your state and give any special laws on the use of guns and ammunition, and List the kinds of wildlife that can be legally hunted in your state. See above. (As a matter of fact, they don't even need to be hunter safety certified!!!!) Explain to your counselor the proper hygienic guidelines used in shooting. See above. Identify and explain three shotgun sports. Identify places in your community where you could shoot these sports and explain how you can join or be a part of shooting sports activities. See above. Give your counselor a list of sources that you could contact for information on firearms and their use. See above. Do ONE of the following options: Option AShotgun Shooting (Modern Shotshell Type) Identify the principal parts of a shotgun, action types, and how they function. See above. Identify and demonstrate the rules for safely handling a shotgun. See above. Identify the parts of a shotgun shell and their functions. See above. Identify the various gauges of shotguns. Explain which one you would pick for use and why. See above. Identify and explain the fundamentals of safely shooting a shotgun. See above. Identify and explain each rule for safely shooting a shotgun. See above. Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot moving targets, using the fundamentals of shotgun shooting. See above. Identify the materials needed to clean a shotgun. See above. Demonstrate how to clean a shotgun safely. See above. Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a shotgun. See above. Shooting score requiredHit at least 12 (48 percent) out of 25 targets in two 25-target groups. The two groups need not be shot in consecutive order. The MB counselor doesn't do anything at this point except sit back, watch and count targets hit while a NRA/BSA certified instructor supervises what the boys are doing. Shooting skill rules: Targets may be thrown by a hand trap, manual mechanical, or on any trap or skeet field. If this shooting is not done at a trap or skeet range/field, a NRA/BSA range officer is not required/needed. Note: If using a hand trap or manual mechanical trap, the trap operator should be at least five feet to the right and three feet to the rear of the shooter. If throwing left-handed with a hand trap this should be reversed. All targets should be thrown at a reasonable speed and in the same direction. Targets should be generally thrown so as to climb in the air after leaving the trap. Scores may be fired at any time, either in formal competition or in practice. Any gauge shotgun not exceeding 12 gauge may be used. Standard clay targets customarily used for trap and skeet are to be used. Any ammunition, either factory or hand loaded, may be used. Maybe if the MB counselor isn't just standing around watching the boys, maybe he can hand-toss the targets. The NRA/BSA instructor still is only supervising the activities. Shooters must shoot in rounds of 25. Rounds need not be shot continuously or on the same day (the term "round" refers to a single series of 25 shots). The MB counselor only records the scores for completion of this requirement. Option BMuzzle-Loading Shotgun Shooting Discuss a brief history of the development of the muzzle-loading shotgun. See #1 above. Identify principal parts of percussion and flintlock shotguns and discuss how they function. See above. Demonstrate and discuss safe handling rules of a muzzle-loading shotgun. See above. Identify the various grades of black powder and their proper use. See above. Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage. See above. Discuss proper components of a load. See above. Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzle-loading shotgun. See above. Demonstrate knowledge, skill, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzle-loading shotgun on a range, including range procedures. See above. (One doesn't need to be certified to know what range procedures are.) Shoot a moving target with a muzzle-loading shotgun using the five fundamentals of firing the shot. MB counselor validates the accomplishment of this requirement but does so under the supervision of a NRA/BSA instructor. No instruction is necessary, just supervision. Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzle-loading shotgun properly and safely. See above. Demonstrate how to clean a muzzle-loading shotgun safely. See above. Identify the causes of a muzzle-loading shotgun's failing to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures. See above. Discuss what points you would consider if selecting a muzzle-loading shotgun. See above. Shooting score requiredHit at least five out of 15 targets. Shooting skill rules: MB counselor validates the accomplishment of this requirement but does so under the supervision of a NRA/BSA instructor. No instruction is necessary, just supervision. Targets may be thrown by a hand trap, manual mechanical, or on any trap or skeet field. Note: If �using a hand trap or manual mechanical trap, the trap operator should be at least five feet to the right and three feet to the rear of the shooter. If throwing left-handed with a hand trap this should be reversed. All targets should be thrown at a reasonable speed and in the same direction. Targets should be generally thrown so as to climb in the air after leaving the trap. Scores may be fired at any time, either in formal competition or in practice. Any gauge shotgun not exceeding 10 gauge may be used. Standard clay targets customarily used for trap and skeet are to be used. See above. These are the requirements for shotgun shooting MB and NONE of the requirements indicate the necessity of the MB counselor needing any kind of certification. Except for the actually shooting for score, all these requirements can be accomplished sitting around a table in a church basement or sitting around the dining room table at Joe Blow's house. So to go back to Greeneagle's initial question: Is an NRA certified instructor certification needed to be qualified as a Shotgun MB counselor? The answer is still NO it is not. Is one needed for the boys to shoot one of the requirements? Yep, but the MB counselor can sign off credit for that requirement when the boy meets or excedes the score necessary for passing. Is NRA/BSA certification needed to watch how many targets the boy hits? NOPE. Is a NRA/BSA instructor needed to supervise this process? Yep. Is this instructor needed for any instruction or just supervision? Just supervision. Stosh

My first reaction would be WHY? Position of Responsibility means just that. It does not mean Position of Responsibility only to the troop. As far as I can tell, this DC might in fact be the most important position for the troop. It definitely signifies the future of the Troop! What better way to inspire and motivate Cub Scouts to move on into YOUR troop than to have an Star/Life/Eagle scout Den Chief?!!! You too can be an Eagle! What a totally awesome PR, inspiration, leadership example can one give to a young Webelo scout? A SM would be a total fool to withhold DC responsibilities for his troop by limiting it only to inexperienced scouts on a six-month rotation. Every DC I have had over the past 15 years has earned the National Den Chief Award (one year commitment) and many of them stayed on for 2-3 YEARS working with the Cub dens! Keep it in mind that those "useless POR" DC's will make excellent TG's as well when they decide to finally move with their boys through the cross-over into NSP's. Sorry for the rant, but I did my WB ticket on this process and if it wasn't for highly skilled, dedicated DC's a lot of Cubs would never have continued on into Boy Scouting. As a matter of fact out of the 8 Webelos cross-over's I had when I was doing my WB ticket, 7 of them Eagled and a lot of that had to do with my DC at the time!!!! Of the 14 Webelos boys that were eligible for Scouting a couple of years ago, 7 of them crossed over and 7 walked away. This den had no DC. Stosh

I would start by taking the required SM and CC signatures off the application form. If the boy is doing the project only the benefitting organization and the boy himself need sign the application. If the project idea is not appropriate, then the Council can tell the boy. There is no need for SM and CC interference in the process! The SM and CC can suggest, mentor, or guide that maybe the idea might not pass Council's approval, but the boy can still turn it in without any hoops/tricks to perform for the SM and CC to get the application on to the next step. If it doesn't pass application, then the boy is sent back to refine it until it does. He may wish to ask advise from SM or CC at this point, but when all is said and done, it should be the BOY'S decision not the SM's or CC's!

"All shotgun shooting activities must be supervised by a currently NRA-certified Shotgun Instructor and when on the range, must be supervised by a currently NRA-certified Range Safety Officer." "Except for law enforcement officers required to carry firearms within their jurisdiction, firearms shall not be brought on camping, hiking, backpacking, or other Scouting activities except those specifically planned for target shooting under the supervision of a currently certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor." Gotta read what the G2SS actually says. After reading it it very plainly states that it does not state that MB counselors need to be NRA/BSA certified to teach the MB. All it states is that during shooting activities it must be SUPERVISED by a NRA/BSA certified instructor and when on a range, SUPERVISED by a NRA/BSA certified range officer. NOWHERE does it say the MB counselor has to be NRA/BSA certified! If I go to a range for shooting I expect an appropriate certified range officer there. Greeneagle already qualifies there. If I send my boys off to Hunter Safety, I expect the appropriate certified personnel to teach and if during the shooting activities, there must be present to supervise an instructor, great, no problem. BUT IF I AM the MB counselor, I do NOT have to be certified. Just another case of people making up rules as they go along. Read what's written, not what one thinks is written. Greeneagle is already a range officer, he can have his boys shoot at the range all he wants. All he needs is an instructor to sit in and supervise while the boys shoot. The instruction of the MB does not need NRA/BSA certification! That might cost a little traveling expense for this person, but will not involve any costly and lengthy training or certification for anyone. If one is going to bring in someone to instruct instructors, that's ok, but surely they should be able to find someone to sit in and supervise an afternoon of shooting for the boys at the local skeet club. There may be a few NRA/BSA instructors already there, if not, council camp staff probably has a few, just ask around. I'm sure if there is these people would find it worth their time to sit in and supervise these boys on an occasional Saturday afternoon of shooting. As I stated before: As far as teaching the MB, the counselor DOES NOT NEED TO BE NRA/BSA CERTIFIED. Stosh

I guess I'm not ready to scrap Eagle projects just because adults can't allow the scouts to actually put their leadership skills to the test. The problem is not with the program, but with the adults who insist on "leading" the boy through the process with all the hoops he must do in order to get a patch. The requirement places a ton of adult approval on the project, which is basically ok, but when the approval adds extra expectations, it is not ok. If one looks carefully at the requirement the PROJECT IDEA has to be approved! NOT THE PROJECT PROCESS. Once the IDEA has been approved, the boy is to be left alone to do his work! Since when does defining a project idea have anything to do with type-written? Adult-led units are a difficult animal to control and modern scouting does very little to rein them in. Maybe it's time to scrap adult-led methods in a program designed to promote boy-led leadership. Maybe it would be best if the SM, Troop Committee, should be kept out of the approval process and the boy works directly with the benefitting organization and scout Council. The SM and Troop Committee have been removed from all but minimal involvement with the Eagle BOR's, why not the whole process? Remember, the Eagle project itself is NOT the problem! Don't go after the symptom of the problem, go after the cause! Stosh

Nowhere in the BSA MB counselor guidelines does it indicate that NRA certification is required for any of the shooting sports. From your vocational background and your interest in youth, you would make a great MB counselor. Fill out a MB application and you're on your way. Stosh

Michael, I can tell you really are beginning to understand how this adult-led process really works (or doesn't work!). It is obvious you have spent some quality time looking at this with an astute mind. It is a correct observation on how the SPL seems to be directed by the SM and thus the boys don't follow. What one has in reality is an adult led program. They can call it by other names, but basically the SM is in control and everyone else just follows along. Sure, it looks like the boys are running things, but no one is really fooling anyone. No one will listen to the SPL because the boys aren't running the show and the SPL is just taking the heat for the SM's decisions/directives. It is obvious that the SPL isn't going to take any counseling or mentoring from the JASM either so that a move to that position will basically remove them from any serious leadership involvement in the unit. If one is viewed as interfering in the SM -> SPL -> troop process of leadership, they would best be served as getting placed out of the way in some arbitrary JASM or other non-functioning position. This is why our troop does things so radically different, we saw the same problems one would encounter in an adult-led unit. What is basically being identified here is: with the SM running the show and everyone else following, it leaves very little if any room for any real boy leadership processes to develop. If the SM says as JASM the scout would no longer be able to share tents with other scouts, etc. he is making it clear just how "out of the loop" one is going to be as a JASM. Personally I would drop all patches off my sleeve before taking JASM under those conditions. Until the unit truly becomes boy-led, nothing will ever change. If one has the courage to take on the SM and challenge the dynamics of the unit maybe it could change, but don't expect things to miraculously change once they reach the age of 16. If one is truly interested in providing some genuine leadership in the troop, I would suggest taking on the position of PL of the older scouts or starting a venture patrol. Insist on the patrol's independence and make decisions based on what's best for the patrol as the boys decide for themselves their own program. Don't worry about the troop being boy-led, just focus on the patrol being boy-led. If the SM refuses an Eagle scout this opportunity, the scout will definitely know that boy-led is never going to happen. If, however, the SM agrees to this, have the patrol become the standard by which all the other patrols might follow. By setting the example of what could be good for the troop, maybe some of the adults will back off and let the boys actually lead themselves more than what is being done now. Don't expect it, but by having a separate boy-led patrol, life in the unit will at least be tolerable. Also, personally, don't become disenchanted with scouting. This dilemna is common in most adult-led programs. The boys get to the age where they would like to try out their leadership skills that have been taught to them for 4-5 years only to have them held back by adults wanting to do all the real leadership. Ever wonder why boys at this age (16-ish) go off and find other opportunities? It's because they don't want to be treated like 11 year-olds any more. The adults blame it on girls and cars, but what about all the boys that don't have girl friend nor cars and they still quit scouting? Sure they come back at the last minute and get their Eagle, but it's not because of any burning desire to be treated like a Tenderfoot, they only want the rank for personal reasons. It is refreshing to have a scout step up and identify this common type of problem. It takes some great insight to see how it negatively affects scouting. Realizing what has been identified allows this scout to know what NOT to do when he turns 18 and takes on adult responsibilities. Just hang in there, you have the potential of being a great SM when the day comes. I have put 30+ years into scouting with one basic premise, to not be the SM that I had as a youth. Every scout deserves a great leader, and Michael you are already there. Stosh

Ideally, that position concept is correct in the way the majority troops operate today. In reality, and especially in a boy-led, patrol-method operation, that's seldom the case. In the way my troop is structured, there is no need for any JASM's. With being boy-led, patrol-method, there is minimal need for SM and ASM and even less need for a JASM. If there ever comes a time when a functional JASM is needed the boys might consider having one, until then, it's pretty much just a patch on the sleeve and the boys know it. If I remember correctly the SM was deciding on this boy being a JASM. In an adult-led program this might actually work. However, Michael's situation seem to alienate him even more than normal by not really being part of the adult situation, nor the youth situation, but some sort of no-man's land somewhere in between. My boys all aspire to be PL's, that's where the real leadership is needed. If a boy has proven himself a worthy leader by wearing the Eagle patch, he should be afforded the opportunity to put that leadership to work in the trenches of a boy-led, patrol-method program, not suffled off to Buffalo to some position that has very little to do with the patrol-method. As a matter of fact, my boys are so much into the patrol method of scouting they have a quick election at camporees to see which PL get's stuck with being the SPL for the weekend and has to divide his energy between troop and patrol responsibilies. So far they have always elected the TG for that temporary position. Obviously the SPL position doesn't have the prestige that is promoted in many of the other troops around us. If SPL doesn't hold much prestige, one can only imagine where JASM falls into the formula. Sorry, my views seem to make good sense to me and to the boys of my troop. Stosh

large cook pot, small toilet/sink plunger a little soap and one can do the laundry. If one doesn't have this equipment a good rinse in the creek should do the job. Unless it's raining out, one should be able to dry out their stuff in about a half hour. Otherwise, with such things as socks, walk them dry. After all if one is fording creeks on a hike, dry socks are a luxury, not a necessity. Stosh

My last candidate came up with his project hand-written wanting my signature (Monday). I took the paper and said I'd get it back to him. I then asked his father if the scope of the project was sufficient for a decent project and he said yes. I signed it handed it back to the boy who turned it in the next day (Tuesday) with plans to start the project before the week was out. He got his approval on Friday and he began work on Saturday. He is now working on his final write-up. I'm hoping he finishes up before school starts. He'd like to finish before he turns 15. To those who might question the process, yes, a boy can do the entire requirement without adult intervention except for maybe a couple of signatures here and there. Was the wording ok on the application? I don't know, I didn't read it. Were all the t's crossed and i's dotted? Beats me. Did the boy do sufficient work? Yep, post construction cleanup and landscaping for a church. A ton of work! Council seemed to be pleased with his idea and the church was really pleased with the work. Could it be that all this grandious effort is a result of adult intervention and not leaving the boy alone to show HIS leadership in the process? Stosh

Michael, we don't use JASM in our troop, we like to keep our boys active and "in the game" so to speak. To us the JASM is for older boys that are basically semi-retired from scouting because they got their Eagle. Our Eagle scouts will have a choice of positions they wish to function at. How does DC sound? What would your next year Webelos scouts be like if their DC was an Eagle Scout? PL of new scouts? Or TG or one of the other more functional positions? For those Eagle scouts that wish to semi-retire, there's the Eagle Patrol where they all hang out as a patrol with only the PL and APL with patches. Somehow I don't see being shuffled out of the action as being a good use of leadership skills in the troop. Just my thoughts Stosh

Being "in charge" is a perfectly acceptable term used in servant leadership. Being "in charge" means one is responsible for others, i.e. "able to respond" to the needs of those in whom care has been assigned. However, occasional re-definition of words often imply being "in charge" as dominant, bossy, bullying, directing, etc. I would think it quite proper to assume that a denner was in charge of his den, as prescribed by proper definition. As a matter of fact, being responsible TO rather than responsible FOR might be a better understanding of what one is trying to teach at the denner level. ;^) Stosh