Stosh

Unless the scouts are doing their activity on private property, there is no way to keep others out. Some of the activities my scouts participate involve thousands of others from CO members to total strangers. I use my CO members to augment my adult support for my scouts at these events. They are filled in on the basics and my scouts know and understand the issues at hand. It has worked out very well over the years. A lot of it has to do with how well the unit and CO get along. Our two entities work hand-in-hand. Stosh

Our unit has a letter of exemption for certain activities, procedures, methods, etc. because of our unique situation. We've had it for 10 years now, never had a legal challenge to it, and I don't think BW's challenge constitutes any legal challenge so we'll just keep doing what we're doing. And as far as the horseback riding scenerio is concerned, it isn't as far fetched as BW implies. I personally have run into the exact same situation and I doubt whether it was at the same camp as GW indicates. Yes, there are valid exceptions to all the rules, but equally valid ways of working around them. As far as BSA is concerned, their policies and procedures aren't always the best but one must adhere to it nonetheless. For example, G2SS has just come out and said that Venturing crews cannot participate in large bore weapon activites. However in the reenacting world, the artillery are the only unit's nationally certified for safety. Most activities will not allow them into their events without proof of such certification. All other reenactors do not need to meet any safety certification processes. Go figure. BSA may eventually learn more as they go on and make the appropriate adjustments. Before one finds it necessary to challenge others, one must first carry the appropriate credentials. Being a forum member isn't the approriate credential. Stosh

Our situation is even closer aligned with the unit/CO relationship than most churches. Most of the adult members of the unit are members of the CO as well. When we go on events, the CO members often times stand in as chaperones for our youth. Very seldom does either organization operate separately from each other, but on occasion do. As a matter of fact currently I am both CA and IH. The CC and IR are both members of the CO. So there are units out there that are quite close with their CO's. Stosh

LOL! Yep, I did just that. Stosh

Unless one has permission from the parents to sign for their child. Which, of course, is a parent's perogative. Which will probably hold up in court with about as much validity as the waivers that get signed. That's why each of the leaders is backed by written permission from the parents, from National BSA, and $3.5M worth of liability insurance when all else fails. So regardless of whatever "rules" one might think they know, there's always a work around to every situation. After all, not everyone on this forum is a lawyer. Stosh

GW - yep, it's the other way around. South named battles for geographic locations (rivers), North named battles for nearby cities/towns. "And we suggested at least one meal to be "authentic" (in historic flavor)and we had lots of beans" (Unfortunately the soldiers didn't have beans) "and bacon", (Nix on the smoked pork too) "some pork shoulders", (heavily salted to preserve it, and if one thinks ham is salty, salt pork is way beyond salty) "one patrol did a leg of venison..." (Soldiers shooting game with their weapons would have been court martialed) "we saw lots of red eye gravy and buscuits (This is lumberjack food, not soldier's) , "a few ears of corn" (Ok if the soldiers stole them from the local farmers when it was in season) , "home made bread (a rarity!) "...it was pretty cool." Any soldier north or south would have LOVED to have the menu selections you have mentioned!! :^) Instead you will need: 12 squares of hard tack (thick crackers made from flour and water only) 1# of raw beef or salt pork, coffee unroasted in bean form, desiccated vegetables (dehydrated vegetables pressed into a block yummy!) sugar, salt and potatoes, carrots, onions and other root stock if available. If you are a southerner toss in a ration of tobacco and replace the coffee with chiccory. Of course everything you cook is cooked in groups ranging from 1 to 1 if you are on the march, otherwise mess groups of about 4 would form up and combine the cooking chores. Keep it in mind, 2/3rds of the soldiers during the war died from disease. If the food is too good, you will not give the boys an authentic experience. Be sure to have all the boys wear their uniform with their red wool jac shirts on all day long, buttoned up. If they aren't miserable enough in the summer heat to drink 5-7 2 qt. canteens of water a day, they jus' ain't sufferin' 'nuff. Oh, by the way, if you're from below the Mason-Dixon, dump the shoes and socks and if you're north, dress shoes/boots with heavy wool socks and then march 10-12 miles each day with a 40# pack (no waist belt), 10# weapon 4# ammunition and 5# food sack. If you don't like the pack idea, roll everything up in your wool blanket and wear it over your shoulder. And they did it all for $15/month pay. Stosh

Unless one is planning on always taking parents along, there are certain activities that require waivers and yet there is no way to sign them until one gets there. It's not an issue of planning, it's an issue of that just the way it is. It's also not an issue of just one scout, it is none of the scouts would be able to participate in the event. Plan B is shut down the unit. Stosh

In my former troop the honor patrol boys wore the BSA expedition hat with the 1" First Class pin on it instead of the adult pin. The SPL and the ASPL wore the old 1930's pins. Looked really nice. Stosh

Hmmm... so if a scout travels all the way across the country to attend an event and the event says that in order for the scouts to participate they have to have to sign a waiver, and for those under 18, need a parent/gardian signature, the boys have to pack up and go home? Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

For a prorated amount on BSA registration, I'd just sign them up. As long as they all pass background checks, no big deal. Being a church group, even I had to get a background check to take the church's youth on a mission trip so it works both ways. Having them registered will also encourage them to get involved with the unit later on or if everyone had fun, maybe turn the youth group into a Venturing Crew. Lots of options for a lot of people. Go for it. I didn't see the secret location either. It's so secret no one can find it. But alas, even if I did find it, with my luck I wouldn't know the secret password, nor the secret handshake either. Stosh

Somehow I get the eerie feeling about this whole thing when I step back and just think a moment. We have more and more clingy parents and that nice NY article indicating how certain groups are facilitating this clinginess and now BSA is organizing a liason type person to facilitate the involvement of more parental influence? I see this as just one more step in the process of adult-led dynamics slowly creeping into the BSA. I see this slow creep as not really going to work out well for the independant development of our scouts. They already are heavily challenged by adult leadership interference and now we've got a coordinator to make that process even easier? Nope. Not for me. Stosh

As with any National Battlefield, there is no camping on the actual NPS battlefield, but they sometimes have access to a NPS campground and with plenty of camping at private parks/resorts in the area you shouldn't have a problem. If you do go with a guide, go with a registered NPS guide (They're a little pricey, but worth it!), stay away from the touristy and ghosty tours and guides. Take time to study the ebb and flow of the battle BEFORE you go so the boys won't be lost during the tour. If you are from an area that had men who fought in that battle, it would be nice to research that as well so the boys can get a little hometown pride involvement in the event. Plan to do a lot of walking, bring cameras, carry canteens/water bottles, and wear hiking shoes. There might be a Civil War buff/reenactor in your hometown that might be a great resource person for your group before, during and after that can visit with the boys, talk about things to get the boys focused on the uniqueness of the event. If it's just a long weekend trip, take him along! Let him tell the stories around the campfire at night. I have taken many groups to National Battlefields over the past 10 years but haven't had to worry about the camping dynamics because our group always goes as part of a reenactment and all those chores have been handled as part of the event. A complete day will be necessary for any field except some of the smaller ones, two would be nice for Gettysburg. If you make it to Antietam, Harper's Ferry is a must see too (1/2 day) Harper's Ferry has an excellent John Brown Museum and does cover a lot of Lewis & Clark history as well.

I have never felt any rank advancement was done in groups. Individuals progress at their own rate, get their requirements signed off individually and are processed with SMC and BOR as individuals. Why would Eagle be any different? If one has mass rank advancement as groups, then I'm thinking there is something kinda wrong with how the program is being handled. Stosh

Of course this guardian issue begs the question, can a SM or CA sign waivers for a minor under this responsibility? Stosh

Sounds like there's some real problems all the way around on this issue. Where was the SM when all the other punches were being thrown? I'm thinking there might be something remiss about the SM who has to have everyone else do the discipline she should have been doing. Then later a second wave of discipline meted out by the committee? Sounds kinda shady from my perspective. By the way, I know a boy who punched a camp counselor, was sent home, made his apologies, and eventually went on to earn his Eagle. Stuff happens, some of it stupid, mean, and very un-Scout like, but one of the reasons the SM is there to make things better, not worse. Just my opinion. Stosh

Unfortunately this is yet another argument against in-council summer camp. I had every day of camp interfered with by parents this past summer camp outing. I'm planning on at least 5-6 hours between boy and parent next summer. It is unfortunately I didn't quite catch all the humor associated with the article, I see items in the article in both BSA and my church youth groups I work with. Clingy parents are the rule, not the exception. Stosh

Hmmm, did you say Central Region? Welcome to the "Wait-N-See" Club. Go immediately to your council office and have them call Central Region to make sure they haven't lost it. You need to be proactive on this. Resubmit it with a high priority, gotta have it now memo attached and have your council call them every other day until you have it in your hands. I'm hoping you have at least a couple more weeks to make sure you get it before you leave. Otherwise have your council people instruct CR to send the permit to SeaBase directly. That way when you get to SeaBase, they can call CR and ask where the permit went too. And please don't think this advice is farfetched. Been there, done that too many times. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

10 plants and animals with a prize for the most unique. Sleep out without tents even if it does rain. Individual cook using messkit (mini Dutch oven) and award a prize for the best meal (Iron Chef BSA) All the First Class+ scouts have to go back and be re-taught Tenderfoot requirements by the boys in the NSP. Award for the best teaching method/presentation. Do all these as patrols instead of as troop or as individuals. Stosh

Well, the nice part of the whole thing is: no matter where you are going or what you are going to be doing, the most difficult and challenging part of the trip is over now that you have the permit in hand. Have a great trip! Stosh

Gotta take a breather here. I was not making any reference to any one person, I was making a comment about how can anyone take the word of a habitual liar? If a habitual liar tells someone they go to church every Sunday, do they really go? If one is going to only go by what that person says, then surely they go to church every Sunday. However, if their actions belie that conclusion, then what does a person do? To have the boys check off their own scout spirit is no different than turning over the hen house to the fox. Why bother wasting everyone's time and energy on a requirement that means nothing? And no, I don't have a hen house, nor do I have any relationship to any foxes. And by the way, I have stuck it out a lot longer than most in the hopes of turning some of my difficult boys around. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but everyone gets the same chance. Do they have to do what I want them to do to get credit for Scout Spirit? Nope, but they have to make an effort to do what the requirement says. Stosh

I do a SM Minute on the subject once a year (when the new Webelos boys come on the scene) and put everyone on notice that if it happens those who haze will be out of the troop immediately, no questions asked. Everyone is entitled to a safe place to be and the troop is one of those places. So far no one has ever challenged me on the issue so I don't ever have to deal with it. Using the servant leadership style of everyone caring for each other (especially PL's of NSP's and TG's) has also gone a long way to remedy the urge to haze. Stosh

Very nice, except how can one tell when a habitual liar is telling the truth? I do believe if the editors of the handbook wanted to have it phrased the way some have interpreted it, they could have said, "How well you live the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your life, though is something ONLY you CAN judge." But alas, they didn't and thus it is very easy to conclude that there are others in scouting that will ALSO judge one's scout spirit and indeed will determine whether or not it reflects the teaching of the Law and Oath. The SM being but one of those. Sometimes there are those who can read and then there are those who can read and understand, but there are still others who read and understand only what they want to understand. Stosh

Yeah, and while you're at it expunge it from your KJV, too. :^) Stosh

By looking at the original post, wouldn't it appear obvious that unless one has done such an audit, their "input" and speculation isn't necessary. Because it is a rarity that such requests be made, someone with prior experience was being sought for some insight. It is obvious that the number of those who have done such an audit is rather low if not zero. If I was asked to do such an audit, I would think knowing what others might have done in the past would be quite helpful. Even if there was no one ever before being asked to do such an audit, that in and of itself is good to know. It is rather irrelevant to know why he is doing the audit or even what series of events lead up to someone requesting him to look into something. The fact remains he was asked, and he sought out those on the forum for any assistance they might have with any experience they might have had with a similar situation. I just thought that 3 pages of run-around and accusations really wasn't helping this guy out with his situation. Stosh

No one needs a reason to post on this forum, nor do they need to account to anyone for their posts. Their rationale for doing so is one else's business. As an accountant maybe he needed to know if there is anything specific to scouting that he needs to know that would apply to a scout audit rather than a tax audit. Surely it would be rather stupid to ask such a question to an accounting forum if that be the case. And what seems odd to anyone on this forum shouldn't come as any surprise. I find it very odd that anyone feels it necessary to challenge another person's motives on the forum, challenge their honesty, challenge their expertise, challenge many of those things that scouting stands for as part of a person's character. To me that is a personal attack in it's most basic form. But then we're all entitled to our own opinions, aren't we? Try and remember, the people on this forum generally aren't a bunch of novice Cub Scouts, many of which have life experiences that go way beyond the handbooks, resources, literature, and publications of BSA that can offer insight and assistance that no "book learnin'" can provide. I have often wondered whether those who expound upon "by the book" kinds of answers might be a little lacking in field experience along the way, but that's again, just my opinion. Stosh