Stosh

Often times it is obvious that some that post on the forum are merely having someone else do their research for them. This is fine, but like LisaBob says, it's an expediency thing and that's ok. However, sometimes people look at the printed material and when it is poorly written or has double interpretations, it makes it kinda difficult to understand. This then is the time to either seek clarity from the sources or poll forums to see what's being done in the various units to handle such situations. Then of course there are those issues that simply don't have an answer and getting feed-back from fellow scouters is a good thing. It might be somewhat helpful if the person asking the original question what may be the motive so the posts can be focused and thus the answers focused, i.e. "The SM is a twit and we want to dump him." At least one knows where they stand. :^) And then of course how does one put the wisdom of one's experiences in a book that everyone can read? Those answers are good as well. There are some answers one can get at the reference desk of the public library and then there are some answers one can get over a cup of coffee with the elderly gentleman/lady next door. Both are valid. Stosh

After a lot of conflict management, group dynamics and interpersonal counseling over the years I can assure the forum that by the time people come to the forum seeking information that will assist them in separating the _____ (CC, MC, SM, ASM, SPL, fill in the blank) from the unit, they are already at a point of conflict where it would be impossible to correct the situation anyway. No amount of forum advice is going to resolve the issues they are facing and contributions will only inflame one side or the other. The obvious advice is to deal with the problems BEFORE they get to the point where someone has to put it on a forum to garner up more ammunition for their side to pursue the separations. Stosh

Hmmm... let me get this straight. If one takes a bucket of water into the bedroom and pours it out, the floor will get wet. If they then take a bucket into the kitchen and pour it out, yep the floor gets wet. Now, take it into the living room. What does one think is going to happen? An experimental pilot program where everyone's goal is to prove this is a fantastic idea vs. the real world of clingy scout moms, stage mothers and Little League dads. Gee, I can only guess what might happen. If this works, I'll be the first to stand up and cheer, but if it doesn't, I get to be first in line to say "I told you so." It doesn't take a special adult member of a troop to recruit new leaders. We have been doing this successfully for years. As a matter of fact, we have at times been so effective that more adults show up sometimes for events than the boys. I'm willing to go out on a limb here, but the boys are going through the process of adolescence and breaking the apron strings and emerging into self-reliance. At that age, the last person I wanted to have along on my trips with the guys would be my mom or dad. Nope, for me it's a program to develop maturity, independence and self-reliance in our young men. Unfortunately that involves a careful retreat by the parents to allow their boys to try out their wings and fly from the nest. Postponing that process is not part of the normal development of adolescence. As a leader of a boy-led program, I spend as much time keeping the parents preoccupied as I do developing and training the boys to run the show. If my Parent Coordinator promises me that they will do everything they can do to keep parents from interfering, then I'll consider it, otherwise, it's just another adult with a power patch I have to keep an eye on. Just imagine it, a scout troop run by the boys that they have but one opportunity to not have to answer to the everyday rules and regs of a family, school, or other program that treats them like kids. Something that for real allows them to be the young adults they really are. Stosh

Not only is it acceptable, but any time the boys develop their own program/treks, it shows that the adults are turned into a boy program. We have done the same thing with Boundary Waters where the boys did NOT use the services of the guides and it ended up being a longer trip, covering more territory and costing them about half the guide rates. A scout is THRIFTY. Stosh

I realized that but did those reading the thread keep up to see that the thread was veering off topic and that by implying the Sea Scouts do it a certain way meant it was universal for everyone else? Stosh

"Boy Scouting is not a family organization" I think that is a terribly short sited view. Everyones entitled to their opinion. Obviously I have mine and you have yours. I don't think anyone can deny that parents can play a very inportant role in a scouts level of poarticipation, his attendance, his advancement, his embrcing and application of scouting values. I totally agree and If you had read my previous posts, I have already addressed this issue a couple of times. A parent supporting his boy is not the same thing as a parent's involvement in the operation and program of the unit as a whole. The ScoutParnets program is an effort to make sure that these influences are positive rather than negative. And how is the ScoutParents program different from the Parent Coordinator committee position. It would seem that apples and oranges are being discussed here. Only one adult, and it doesnt have to be a parent can hold that position. I assk again, due too your failure to respond, What specific element(s) of the passage I shared from the ScoutParents Orientation Guide do you see as harmful to scouting or to a unit program. And why are Little League dads and soccer moms not a part of the scope and function of those organization? and yet seem to have a major impact on the reality of the program. Where does it say that the Scoutparents are involved in taking over youth responsibilities? A family organization implies the involvement of the whole family. A youth organization implies youth supported by family. Again, we have apples and oranges being compared here. Where does it duggest that the parents are to take over Scoutmaster responsibilities. Same place it suggests that the parent in the bleacher gets involved in whether or not the Little League coach is there next season. Your fears seem firmly based on things that the ScoutParents program isn't about, and you are ignoring what it tells you it is. Ive been around politics to know that saying one thing and doing another is a perfectly acceptable course of action. The Trojan Horse sure looked like a neat gift when they first saw it. All Im saying is buyer beware. This program just doesnt set well from the git go. But of course that is only my opinion based on 35+ years of youth work in a wide variety of different settings. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

There is a very thin line between parent involvement and parent interference. After 35+ years of youth work, this line is not always honored. Just ask any youth counselor, youth worker, coach, teacher, pastor and scout leader how this works. Soccer moms, Little League Dads, and stage mothers are becoming the rule not the exception and from an earlier post on clingy parents interfering in the operations of a summer camp to the point where they had to have a fulltime person handling the hassles, it's just around the corner for Scouting. Boy Scouting is not a family organization. I'm thinking YMCA/YWCA organization would better fit their situation as would their local churches. However, BSA is a boy/youth organization supported by parents. If a parent wishes to take on a BSA leadership role, that's great, but they need the background checks, references, etc. It is my perspective that this once independent parent organization has pressured BSA to influence their program on the national level and will not extend it into the units. I'm thinking BSA is on a slippery slope that may not benefit the boys in the long run. Stosh

I'm sure that if BSA wanted to limit the number of knots, they would have published it more places than the Sea Scout Manual. I would think the BSA Uniform Insignia Guide might have been a better choice. The only time the Sea Scout Manual would have come into play would be if this person was a Sea Scout, after all they play by different rules than many of those prescribed by BSA for the Boy Scout and Cub Scout programs/uniforms/etc. Stosh

Clingy parents that gotta be there running everything for their kids are now getting themselves organized into the BSA...the ultimate adult-led program? Spin it any way you want, still looks that way to me. Stosh

Whoa, BW, I didn't reference any of your posts. I simply made a comment that there seems to be too many adults aready, no need to formalize a program to do more. As far as parents supporting the program. Knock yourself out supporting your boy! Help him grow up, IT'S YOUR JOB AS PARENT TO DO SO! But that limits the scope of their influence to their own children, not the unit as a whole! and they can do that, they have that responsibility, and I encourage them. But if I'm going to work with these boys to have a boy-led, patrol-method program, I don't need to be spending any more time than I already am trying to keep adults from "taking over"! I am fortunate enough to have a CC who's on the same page as I am and does that for me. I doubt whether or not he wishes to have someone on his committee who's a parent coordinator unless that person's sole responsibility is to do damage control PR, and to keep the parents happy and out of the way. That way the both of us can focus on our jobs in the unit. And by the way, I've looked at the parent page website and I don't think it's a BSA program, just some outside organization wishing to get in and have some sort of "influence" in the BSA program. I didn't get the feeling that this organization wished to worry about their individual boys as much as they wanted to carry clout in the unit itself. One doesn't need a parent coordinator to have every parent worry about their own children. If they have a question, just ask, we don't need a MC position specifically for that. Stosh

I guess it's my personal feeling that if I wanted to advertise something it would be a lot easier to get a sandwich board than get a tattoo. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with the drawer full of white t-shirts I have rather than those with writing on them. Stosh

If it wasn't bad enough with the registered leaders interfering with boy-led, patrol-method, now they'll have the parents messing with it too. BSA seems bound and determined to really foul this up one way or another. Stosh

I think the solution to the problem lies in the subject line of the thread. I do believe it would take a major perspective adjustment on one's part, but try and visualize this: Patrol Method - How do THEY get there? Once one instills this concept in the minds of both adult and youth, will the boys have taken the first true step in boy-led, patrol-method. Too often the concepts of coaching, mentoring, guiding is really word-spin for adult-led. It needs to be constantly brought up to the adults, what are the boys wanting to do and what can we as adults do to assist them in their decisions? Every adult needs to listen first to the boys and then remain silent. If the boy asks for guidance, assistance, then come forward and do exactly what they tell you they need help on. Nothing more, no suggestions, nothing, just roll up your sleeves and fall under their leadership. Until they are given the real opportunity to lead, they will never figure it out. Until adults give up ownership of the unit and the boys take it on in a valid manner, (not contrived by adults) will true boy-led, patrol-method really happen. I do things a bit different, but I have in less than a year's time turned an adult-led, troop-method program into a solid boy-led, patrol-method program. The discussion last night at our "troop" meeting was how are the 15 boys we have now going to take on, organize, instruct, and assist in becoming successful five-seven new patrols of new Webelos crossovers this coming February. The first thing I overheard one PL say to his boys was, "what is it we need to do to make it work for these new boys?" Their concern was that each of the three existing patrols would be sacrificed to make five-seven new ones possible. They realized the new boys would need the talents of each of the older boys to make a go of it. I then walked off and went and sat with the other adults who had gathered in their own little group to discuss who got to go on the canoe trip the boys were planning in the next couple of weeks and who would be available to supervise a fundraiser this next weekend. Basically we focused on what we needed to be doing while letting the boys focus on what they needed to be doing. Once one gets to that point, they have at least a toe-hold on this different style of unit dynamics. Stosh

If done right one does not need a thimble. Instead of trying to nail through a sheet of cast iron, just snag the stitching that is always around the edge of every patch and stay away from the glue/plastic. I have no trouble whatsoever with this method and holds the patch as securely as sewing through the plastic. After all the edging is through the plastic, so just catch the edging. As a mater of fact one can totally hide the stitching doing this edge method even if one uses a totally different color of thread. The only patch that doesn't have the edging all the way to the edge are the numerals. They can be more difficult to hide the stitches. Stosh

The only thing that looks worse than Badge Magic letting loose and having curled corners is velcro with curled corners. By the way, how does one get velcro on the uniform? Sew it or glue it? I sew badges on a weekly basis for myself. I have it down to where it takes me less than 3-4 minutes to get a patch on. Stosh

It often concerns me that everyone seems to be stumbling all over each other with the rules. Yes they are critical, but often times create major obstacles to the intent of the program. This past weekend I had a 19 year-old female ask if she could join my crew. Of course it was a great opportunity for her. I said it wouldn't be any problem getting a second adult female to cover the situation. The second stickler was she was considering dating one of the crew leaders she has know for many years. Now it was getting complicated. Easy solution? She joined our CO instead. It cost her less, no registration issues, no youth/leader issues, no male/female issues and she will interact with the crew and CO just like before. The only loser in the situation was the BSA's membership numbers. And of course, until this gal turns 21, other females will continue to join the CO rather than the crew. Membership in the CO starts at 16, less if parent is a member. This is how youth younger than 14 are associated with our crew as well. Stosh

Once again, you are correct. And all kidding aside, no, I don't think you're a Necker Police. There is a reason and purpose to the rules. Some units/dens follow them to the T and others focus on other emphasises and let things slide. It would possible to assume that my son's den and pack didn't seem to worry too much about the uniform, none of the boys wore uniform pants, (another grosse infraction of the rules) and yet all the boys seem to have a good time, and most earned their Arrow of Light, and went on to Boy Scout troops that didn't follow the uniform rules either. In the greater scheme of things, I guess if I had to err it would be on the side of the boys having a good time, wearing neckers they are proud of, telling the stories of how they got them, and basically enjoy the fun of scouting. If they are falling in for a special flag ceremony, make the effort to "Do Your Best" to look good. I have found over the years that especially the necker is a great tool in developing unit pride, (patrol pride as well for the older boys), something that often times has a great story behind it, and something that makes a nice momento for the boy to remember the great times he had in the past. If the cub wants all three neckers and a few extras, what's the harm? If the boy only wants one necker and is satisfied, what's the big deal. When all is said and done, in our Council, I only know of one Cub Scout that owned a full uniform that had all 3 Cub neckers. The Necker Police would have a holiday here, but inspite of it all, there's a ton of boys having a good time in the program. The original post asked what would be appropriately fun for the boy with a specialty necker, and my advice was to milk out as much fun as possible with it before storing it away in his momento box. My advice still stands. Stosh

I guess the Necker Police have found me out. Yes, that is correct, but my boy wore the yellow/blue necker all the way through Cub Scouting, no one arrested him and he got his Arrow of Light and when he crossed over, they took his yellow/blue and replaced it with his new troop necker. If it has caused him any serious emotional stress, it never really manifested itself. And as far as any peer-pressure he never mentioned it nor asked about getting/needing any other necker. Stosh

The Necker Police are going to get me on this, but in our "troop" (gathering of patrols) the boys all carry two neckers, the troop necker and their patrol necker. I as a wood badge graduate carry two as well, my WB necker and the troop necker. When we travel and function as a whole, everyone wears the troop necker, when the boys operate as a patrol, they wear their patrol necker. If someone comes to a meeting with a specialty necker, they wear it with the expectation that the other boys get a full accounting of all the fun he went through to get the necker. After that, it is his disgression to wear it as he wishes, but once the novelty wears off it normally gets packed away in his scouting memoir box. I occasionally drag out a specialty necker when I want to hint to the boys that they might want to consider the event I went on to get the necker. I have a BWCA specialty necker we got when my troop took another troop up there because they had never gone on a high adventure trip and we hosted them to show them how much fun it was. We got the neckers so that the boys from both troops would all look the same. I also have my Philmont necker (signed by everyone on the crew, again multiple troops were involved) so that I can promote the fun I had at Philmont. Neckers are good PR for the patrols, troops and special events, wear them proudly and don't worry about the Necker Police. Stosh

I figure when the boys in the patrols make that decsion, we'll change over the numbers and epilettes. Stosh

Dang, now I'm going to lay away nights for at least a week. BW and I agreed on something. Stosh

"I was also able to further convince him to make more changes in the way we provide the program to the youth. " To? or With? or ???? Moving to meaningful Patrol Method. We are going to require the youth to stop using hot dogs and top ramen as a meal while camping. " We? Meaning the CC & SM or the boys themselves? "SM's other new requirement will be that on each weekend outing each Patrol will have to cook one dinner and one breakfast (for a 2 night outing only) in a dutch oven unless they are backpacking. " Hmmm when do the boys get to make the decisions? Best of luck on that last 20% it's the hardest... :^) Stosh

I guess it was just a little dig at servant leadership, but my boys really like the concept and incorporate it well into the patrols. There seems to be a lot more team work and very little discipline problems because of it. My NSP that had 3 older boys in it had them all quit leaving just the new boys. They reorganized, selected a new PL and began the process recruiting new members. One of the new boys that they have recruited was an experienced boy moving into the area. In the best interest of the patrol they have asked him to be their PL. I find the concept "best interest of the patrol" being floated around a lot of discussion amongst the boys and I'm thinking it has a lot to do with servant leadership of taking care of each other rather than just focusing on self. I find that after getting them started, they learn the processes, they can pretty much take care of themselves and decide for themselves how they want to patrol up. Most of the boys prefer to keep their initial groupings intact. Your mileage may vary... Stosh

If I worried about being sued, I would have gotten out of scouting, church youth group, and a ton of other activities I am involved with as a volunteer. I was a volunteer EMT-A, another area where I could have been sued to death. Of course I drive a car and own a home, too. Bit time opportunities to get sued. Just keep it in mind that anyone can get sued for anything at anytime. I can sue my neighbor for divorce. I'm not married to him, but I can still sue, I will lose the case, and it will still cost him money. Of course I carry $3.5M dollars worth of liability insurance which lets me sleep pretty well at night. I guess I'm just a bit more optimistic about the people I hang out with. Stosh

Our NSP's have assigned older boy PL's. Once their year is up they can either keep their patrol intact or move around, form new patrols or whatever. They then elect their own PL. The only "rule" is that the patrol size is limited to 8 boys. Next year, SM will select the NSP PL's from his corps of qualified scouts and make the assignments. Stosh