Stosh

From the bit of info provided, it would seem that this unit is boy-led, troop-method, and those that "tried" patrol-method didn't really try very hard. I have worked in both settings and patrol groupings in a troop-method approach are pretty much useless, at least the boys recognized this. As was said, boys will hang with their buddies anyway. Patrol realignment for convenience of camporee competition is common and any resemblence of patrol-method is only good for setting a good impression or assigning work duty. (No wonder patrol-method gets a poor reputation). I find that the only way one accomplishes patrol-method scouting is to use the servant-leadership style. This focus-on-others approach goes a long way towards team-building and esprit-de-corps in the patrol. One never gets the "Us and Them" responses to issues in the unit. It is obvious that the troop in question is strongly "us and them". Before one retries the patrol-method (even patrol realignments in a troop-method program) one has to be able to understand: "What is in the best interest of the troop/patrol?". Until that happens, it is my opinion that one will only spin their wheels and frustrate themselves along the way. I would suggest the approach I did with my boys to make the change. I took the most "caring" older boy of the troop and made him TG. It then became his responsibility to work with all new boys from that point onward. No one messes with the new boys unless it goes throught he TG first. He determines the most caring of the older boys and places them as PL of the NSP's as they develop. The only "training" the PL's get is: "Take care of your boys!" With the assistance of the TG, this older PL "protects" the NSP from being taken advantage of, leads them in the difficult tasks, and works autonomously from the troop (You are a PANTHER first, and a member of Troop #XXX second). The PL's contribution to the PLC is to only inform them of the steps he is taking to take care of his patrol. ("We'll be happy to do latrines when our turn in the rotation comes up, but not until then.") He decides whether or not it is in the best interest of his boys. If working together with the other patrols is in the best interest of his boys, then it happens. If successful one can expect some great things from the boys, especially in the arena of leadership development. The older boys look forward to having the opportunity to really lead and the younger boys are assimilated into the troop with the protection of an "older scout brother" to watch over them and care for them. Just let the older boys who are presently digging in their heels age out and soon the troop will naturally switch over to the patrol-method. I was doing a SM minute this past week (I've been on board with this new troop for 1 year now) and was talking about this whole issue. I asked them what the proper action would be to deal with a PL that wasn't doing his job. One boy of the NSP simply said, "Help him be better." I'm gearing up for 30 new boys in Feb '09. That means assimilating these boys into 3 existing patrols and adding 3 more. (Not bad since last year at this time we had 5 scouts, 3 of which have since quit because they didn't like the "new program") Some of the existing scouts will be moving out of the patrols down to troop level positions and three of the boys will be handpicked to take over the 3 new patrols (This is hard to do because the boys have a strong pull/loyalty to their patrols). Those three boys have been identified as those who have reached FC within the first 6 months of crossing over and want the top job of PL. Those who are already in a patrol will stay there and have their numbers filled out with new scouts (Age Blending 101). Each patrol will be responsible for training their new members in the basics. The three totally new NSP's will have a TG work with them to get them up and running. Does it work? I had 80% of my Webelos cross-overs go to summer camp, cook in site (menu prep, shopping, cooking, and cleaning for one day), get 2 merit badges and progress one rank (2nd Class) in the NS program. (They had been in the program for 3 months) All that was accomplished by the care and concern of their PL's only, who themselves were able to earn 3-4 merit badges of their own. Boy-led, patrol-method does work, but one needs PL's that care more about others than themselves. Stosh

Because there are those who find it necessary to jump all over people who misuse the terminology, I simply don't reference it anymore. I talk about my troop and my crew. Those around me are quite remarkable in that they can quickly figure out I'm talking about a BOY SCOUT troop and a VENTURING crew. There are even those who have been able to take it one step further and intuitively know that when I use the term pack I'm referring to a CUB SCOUT pack. We don't have forums, they are roundtables, so that's easy enough to avoid talking about. If there are those who find it necessary to correct my terminology, I simply excuse myself and find another table to sit at where the conversation is a little more cordial. And even if I do misspeak and say Venture Crew, I find it remarkable that those who get upset still manage to understand what I am referring to. Go figure. Stosh

I found that the records that came from camp this summer were pretty much bogus anyway. I found it difficult to accept records that show boys passing all the requirements for a merit badge and new boy requirements and the boy didn't even attend camp. One's gotta wonder about the integrity of the progam when it's that far out in left field. My PL's had to go back review every single requirement for every single boy to make sure things were done properly. Once signed never questioned? Not in my troop. The boy at least has to show up to get credit for the merit badge. I'd be careful of blaming the boys, there's plenty of problems originating out of camp staff as well. It's one of those adult-led issues all over again. Had I been johnny-on-the-spot and watched over every little detail, this would not have happened. But if the PL's are running the show, often times the staff just blows them off. At least my boys have been honest with the problems of their advancement. They told their PL's for each requirement whether or not they were able to finish it. The boy that didn't go because of an injury let me know which items he was able to work on while he was laid up and his PL marked him off correctly inspite of what the camp records showed. The double whammy comes with being able to trust your PL's to honestly get it straightened out with boys who would easily be able to get out of doing some of the requirements. Stosh

Get a Den Chief, make connections with a troop, get trained. Then sit back and enjoy the boys. There's no need to panic. As a matter of fact, if one panics, the boys see that as blood in the water and they'll eat you alive. :^) These next two years will be your best in scouting. Been there, done that! Stosh

Kinda too bad an Eagle can't wear his OA sash at his COH. Maybe if he keeps his dues up he can wear the pocket patch, otherwise it all ends up in the memory box. Stosh

$100,000 per patch. Maybe then the boys will learn to do it for themselves for free. If some gal can get $5 per patch, great P. T. Barnum would be proud. I sat down this weekend and sewed 11 patches on a new uniform and it took less than 45 minutes. Of course I was watching the Olympics and hemmed a pair of cut off uniform pants to make shorts, too. I lost my needle for 5 minutes in the midst of it all because I didn't realize my scissor blades were magnatized. I think that covers it. My very first Venture crew meeting was a lesson in sewing and since then over the past 10 years my boys have saved hundreds if not thousands of dollars because of it. Stosh

Gee thanks guys, I'm glad we got me straightened out. For a minute there I was kinda worried. :^) In some minor respects BW is correct in that I don't follow the manual exactly as written. My way is not EXACTLY to the numbers proper, but I have tweaked it a bit to fit my situation, what my boys want, what works best and what supports the continuation of scouting in my place at my time. My "program" today might not be better or worse than BSA program, (frankly I don't lay awake nights worrying about it), but it does seem to produce the results that work in my situation. Does doing it different make the BSA program "wrong"? I guess it'd be a stretch for me to consider that, but in my situation it is wrong for what we are trying to accomplish. Next door, it might be "right" but then their situation, being different might need a third approach to make things work for them. Whether it be my troop or crew, in order to have a successful program that works, one has to consistently be tweaking, modifying and trying out different things. The concept of boy-led, patrol-method is touted by BSA, but in reality isn't supported by the local traditions and interpretations so I kinda do my own thingy. I have a unique situation where I have 99% new boys and they are all fired up about doing it their way and having an adult supportive of this and it's causing excitement and growth that is difficult to control. But we're having a great time doing it. My crew has stood the test of time and has been around as long as Venturing has, something a lot of units can't claim. But the book? Absolutely not. Successful? Yep. Teaches the principles of scouting? Yep. Do we have crew officers? Kinda, in name only. All of them are totally non-functioning. Does that mean I think BSA is wrong? Heavens no, it just means that in my situation, other dynamics require me to do things far differently than BSA structures the generic crew to make it work. Is it successful, the boys think so, the district thinks so and the hobby in which it operates definitely thinks so. The nice thing about BSA is that it has a certain amount of directives and guidance it gives through its literature and training, but it also expects its leadership to be successful and that often times means more than what it can offer in print and yet BSA is flexible enough to make it happen for the boys. As long as the boys accomplish the goals of scouting, the methods may vary a lot from one unit to the next and it doesn't make someone is doing it right and someone is wrong just because they are doing things differently. This right and wrong judgmentalism isn't something that I find very helpful so I basically ignore it. If it is working, leave it alone, if it isn't, fix it. So far BSA has done nothing but encourage me and has never repremanded me for my successful programs in two differing BSA programs. As a matter of fact, they sought me out and ask me to take over a failing unit because of my "not so orthodox" methods that seem to be working very well. Stosh

One must also realize that by containing the problem in the patrol first also keeps the perception of seriousness at bay. If the PL handles a small squabble amongst his boys, fine, but if he seeks to or has to take it up the chain of command to the SPL then the problem appears bigger than what it originally was, just a squabble. Once the SM gets wind and steps in, it's now a really big problem and the PL has lost total control of the situation and the two squabbling boys are sent home. In a team situation, everyone takes care of everyone else, but as we all know at times others push our buttons and we fly off the handle. It's not a major issue unless the powers that be or the standing operating procedures escalate it far more than it needs be. My PL's are trained to use the least amount of interference to begin with. Not much is gained by the PL running rough-shod over the others. A little "time-out" opportunities for each side to cool down and soon the whole incident is forgotten. Push comes to shove, maybe the PL needs to break it up and then assign some "time-out". All these reactions on the part of the PL enhance his respect and shows an impartiality in stressful situations. If however, the situation is more serious, he can bring in the SPL as a referee, mediator, assistant, to give resolution to the problem. Sometimes even the APL can function in this role as well. The nice thing about this all is that the adults, who usually come in as gang-busters aren't involved unless asked. This way the team dynamics stay in tact, the members show they are working it out amongst themselves and no one needs to get sent home. The only exception to this is safety issues. Here anyone can call anyone else on the carpet. Get everyone safe first then turn it over to the PL to deal with. Troop goes to the city pool to take the BSA swim test and Johnny doesn't pass. Then it's open swim time and Johnny heads for the deep end of the pool. SM catches the non-swimmer before he gets to the deep end and calls over the PL. PL states that the life-guard said it was ok. Then I asked who was running his patrol, the life-guard or the PL? The PL spent the rest of the evening working with the non-swimmer on his swim test instead of having fun with his buddies in the deep end. Many times these "discipline" issues are great learning experiences and great opportunities for leadership to become real for the boys. The PL's trained in proper discipline techniques, applied fairly and impartially are some of the best leadership tools available to the boys. Stosh

If a PL has been trained in the basics of conflict management and teamwork building, there are very few issues that he couldn't address. Of course if it is a "serious" event, then assistance from the SM/ASM/CC would come into play. Surely no one is expecting the PL to be what he is incapable of, but allowing them the opportunity to deal with any and all issues pertaining to his patrol is vital to his leadership development. To disallow the scouts no involvement in the issues of discipline is not doing the boys any favors, nor is it giving them a chance to deal with problems of the real world. Surely the boys of the patrol will only gain respect for a fair and just PL when dealing with issues of discipline in his patrol. To have the adults step in and take away that opportunity is why many boys will never develop their full leadership potential. Just because it's a "discipline" issue does not mean I automatically step in and "rescue" the PL. On the contrary, I wait for his request for assistance (usually after the SPL has had an opportunity to assist the PL). I find that about 95% of all issues are well within the PL's skill set to deal with the problems. If one has a solid SPL that really functions as such and doesn't just wear the patch, very few issues ever reach me. The boys themselves have determined the seriousness of the issue and this is an excellent skill for them to develop. With boy-led, patrol-method, the autonomy of the patrol is respected in all issues facing it, not just those that are comfortable and supportive to the leadership's self-esteem. For an adult to jump in and take over when things go sour really undermines the authority of the PL and other youth leadership. Stosh

"If I have posted something that is not what is in the official National literature, that neither surprises nor bothers me. If a reader finds what I have posted useful, it is available to them. If not, then they should disregard it. They are the leader of their unit, not me. My objective is to be Helpful, Friendly and Courteous." And thus my caring about it is rather irrelevant as well. I found it helpful and that's all NeilLup expected. And no, I don't care what page he did not find this information on. Stosh

Sometimes trying too hard isn't a good idea. A nice firelay with tinder, kindling and wood displayed open/exposed on one side not only shows the placement of the fire, clean area around (stack of firewood well to the side), but also a demonstration piece to show all the aspects of a good fire build and safety all at the same time. If this is a recruiting piece, the simple demo area can show all the many things the boys will learn as they progress through scouting. Add to the area a fuzz-stick and jackknife , (flint/tinder, bow/spindle, magnesium), match safe, hand-axe and mini axe-yard will all go into everything to make the campfire/cookfire possible. Maybe then the Webelos boys coming into the troop will understand that fire building is more than a stick and a match. Add to that a Dutch Oven, fry pan, mess kit, lightweight stove (no fuel necessary) camp stove (no fuel necessary), etc. Boys love fire and to have a demo of how to do it right will quickly catch their attention without any unnecessary faky gimmicks. I know it doesn't answer the original question, but maybe it was the wrong question for what is trying to be demonstrated. By the way, dry ice "smoke" does not rise, it just rolls along the floor... A good fire doesn't produce a lot of smoke anyway. :^) Stosh

Like NeilLup, I guess I don't follow the book either, and likewise I don't much care. What I do find helpful is exactly what NeilLup suggests. My PL's are 100% in control of their patrols. They support their membership, guide them, help them, discipline them as needed, and are expected to run the show. If there is a discipline problem between members of two different patrols, then 2 PL's deal with it. My TG/SPL is responsible for interpatrol communications and assists in dealing with those kinds of interpatrol problems. All in all, it is very rare that conflicts escalate to the level where an adult needs to get involved. I can honestly say that has not happened in the past 12 months in the unit I'm serving in and although it is a little different structure in my Crew, it has happened only once in the past 10 years. Only twice in my troop have I personally stepped in on a situation and that was because of safety infractions and once the problem was identified, the unsafe scout corrected the problem and life went on. The principles of conflict management are simple and can be taught in five minutes. All my PL's are trained in these methods and deal with issues well before they become a problem. Stosh

I agree that there are a variety of different reasons why people come to the forum, but I guess I was just surprised why there seems to be so many of them the result of problems. Why is it that negotiations have broken down, CC's,UC's, DE's and SE's haven't been able to resolve the problems? Units are being split, SM's tossed out, CC's and SM having fights, CM and DL having fights, etc. etc. etc. Is it the times we live in? I don't remember these issues 15 years ago. And what surprises me is that I don't seem to have the problems that others have even though I know my boys are no better or worse than anyone else's boys. Stosh

And then, of course, there's the times when decisions are made that are difficult to support but one does it anyway. I'm not always thrilled by the decisions of the boys, but if my program is going to be boy-led, it has to be boy-led and I need to stand back and let things take their course, good or bad. It's really difficult to stand by and watch a train wreck. Of course, one offers suggestions and helps, but the final decisions is not mine to make. Or when another adult digs themselves into a bad hole with a poor choice, one still has to back them. There are a lot of things one does for the betterment of the whole that makes them a good citizen, team player, or leader. I don't hold the ultimate answer for every situation and there are times when one has to step back and allow another to step up to the plate. As a scout leader, we instill the best into the boys and then we have to let them run with it. Being an SPL and doing the SPL job are two entirely different animals and allowing the boy to actually do the job is for me at least the ultimate goal. Wouldn't it be great to have all our boys take seriously the patch on their sleeve the way Lin Hao took seriously his role as Hall Monitor. Those dynamics are not something one learns out of a book. Stosh

My first grade teacher always said that reading the words is only half the task, understanding them in quite another. This is probably why when someone posts the words out of the book/manual/publication, that's fine, but at that point we're only halfway there. Stosh

What's with all these requests on the forum seeking advice to kick out some vounteer, SM, MC, DL, parent, or scout? Whatever happened to negotiations, conflict resolution, cooperation, and some of those things we are supposed to be instilling in our scouts? I look back on some of these posts (and I'm as guilty as the next guy) and see that about 80% (approximately of course, or someone's going to wonder where I got the numbers from) of them are bummed out about something someone did and instead of working a little teamwork, it's right straight to "how do we get rid of them?" What is the example we are setting for our scouts? Stosh

I never had a Totin Chit until I was in Wood Badge and promptly lost it. My take on the card is: when I see an infraction I take the boys card and tear it in half, then I lay one half on the other, turn the two 90 degrees and tear again. Now the boy has his four corners and an opportunity to take the class again. All my boys know that this is the procedure and only once did I ever do it, that was the first day when the policy went into effect and no one has ever pushed the issue again. And by the way, whether or not they have a card, all the boys from new scouts to Eagles take the Totin Chit training annually. Applies to the adults as well. This way I know all my boys are trained and if they lose their card it's no big deal until they get outside the troop. Stosh

Hmmmm, I guess I must apologize to members of the forum for offending them. I didn't realize there might be those out there who are humor-impaired. I guess there are scouters who are so literal in everything that when someone finds an opportunity to have a little fun (something that is supposed to be part of every scout program) it comes across as offensive. Please accept my apologies. Stosh

I have had scouters say I set a bad example for my boys when I wear my belt axe and sheath knife. However, when it comes to fire starting, cooking, and maintaining a cook fire, these items are necessary. I find that a single jackknife insufficient for kindling and full or 3/4 axes way to big. Both items are very useful and probably was one of the reasons BSA used to provide them for purchase to all scouts. One of the reasons these items are no longer in vogue is because not many people actually know how to use them properly. It may be a reason why our local camp no longer even uses axes as well. We cooked in camp and needed firewood and they provided it, but it took a second request to get a splitting maul to actually make the wood useful. When one cooks in camp, there's a constant need to get a fire going quickly and to make sure it is extinguised, properly. Turning the knob on a gas stove is reasonably simple, but we find leaving the gas and stoves behind requires specialty equipment to replace it. Jackknives are too small and axes too big. Thus sheath and belt axe are perfect. I'm thinking many of these urban legends are a result of changing attitudes and understanding of a changing program. It's easier to simply say it's not allowed than it is to give a proper explanation of the changes. Stosh

Gee, MM, I hate to say I told you so, but.... I have found that with as many permits I do each year, there is no amount of endearing oneself to these people that makes one iota of difference. They only operate under dire threats and only if it comes from 2-3 different sources. I always come away from this situation with a bad taste in my mouth because of the frustration and anger that gets generated each time I need a permit. I used to feel guilty about it until I realized I wasn't the problem, the Central Region's office inefficiency and attitude was. They can't be all that busy with a backlog of requests, no one else is. It's just an excuse for poor employees and the office practices they follow. Have a good time at Sea Base and remember, you don't need another permit for a really long time.... dont wait, apply now! :^) Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

Hmmm, 1 week free at summer camp with the troop. 2nd week with venturing crew at national reeactment. 3rd week free with church youth group on mission trip. It takes more than money to get to some of these things. As long as my priority is with the kids, it makes it difficult to find the time let alone $$'s. It would be fantastic if this training were available in other areas, more people would have an opportunity to go and 20 people all traveling to NM is more expensive than one person going to the 20 and renting a lecture hall in a hotel. Gotta decide whether it's the training or the experience at Philmont that is the most important part of the trip. Stosh

Yep, there's a fourth reason, I'm not the only freak out there that really enjoys the boys. Stosh

Unless the BSA Uniform Police kick my door down and drag me up in front of all my peers at the Council Dinner and point out what a loser I am for still wearing the old numerals, I'm going to just keep wearing them until the Badge Magic wears out, I burn a hole in my shirt because I was playing in the fire, or small toddlers and babies begin to cry everytime I come near. Maybe I can velcro the new ones over the old ones...????? Stosh

"We probably all fit into one of three categories when it comes to recognition. 1) Those who appreciate being recognized, 2) Those who need to be recognized, 3) Those who want to be recognized." And of course there is another one that seems to have been omitted from the list: 4) those who don't care one way or another about the knots. I have been given knots over the years, all of which were submitted by others in recognition of my work. It's kinda like getting recognized for doing your job. I get my "reward/ego boost" from working with the boys, not another patch on the uniform. Stosh

Not all Councils are into certain types of projects and those that offer a little creativity might need a little assistance prompting from the unit leadership. I suggested a project for a boy and he picked it up and ran with it. His project was not a traditional one and the powers in the council rejected it. He and I went and visited with those who had made the rejection and asked why. They basically didn't have a good reason and eventually changed their mind, but gave a lot of explanation about how the work done may be such that even though initially approved may not be approved after the work was done. Well, the boy's picture ended up in the local (front page, second section) as well as our state's capital's newspaper (front page, second section). Needless to say not everyone sees the world the same as those few who may be approving the projects. 4 years later I am still seeing the affects of this young man's project, the scope of which far exceeded the expectations of the sponsoring organization. Stosh