Stosh

Expected behavior? Out of 12 squirrelly kids if only one behaves by doing what is expected, shouldn't he be rewarded for leading by example? In our day and age, getting kids to do what is expected is a major accomplishment in life. If a DL could get his/her den to do what is expected, I'm sure they would get an award for something. Nope, it's all relative. If one boy is the least squirrelly, he gets the prize for the day. Work in increments and celebrate even the littlest of accomplishments. The boy who Does His Best and still has difficulty meeting minimum expectations, should still be rewarded. Stosh

Main Entry: 1ethnic Pronunciation: \ˈeth-nik\ Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin ethnicus, from Greek ethnikos national, gentile, from ethnos nation, people; akin to Greek ēthos custom more at sib Date: 15th century 1: heathen 2 a: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background b: being a member of a specified ethnic group c: of, relating to, or characteristic of ethnics One of the reasons why people confuse it is because it means the same thing although ethnic can be viewed in a broader scope than just racial, but ethnic does relate to classification based on racial origin by definition. Thus a person of Jewish ethnic background, be it race, language, cultural etc. they can be an Atheist as long as they are not of the belief that there is a god. Using the above accepted definition, as long as one leaves religion (i.e. any believe there is a god) out of the equasion one can have an Atheistic Jew. The confusion comes when one doesn't understand the full implications of the meanings of words. As a matter of fact the etymology indicates the word's roots in the word gentile i.e. a non-believer, i.e. gentile. And as a point of reference, anyone who does not believe in the same God I do is an Athiest relative to me. I'm sure they're of the same opinion of me, but that has no effect on my belief system. Stosh

Because Jewishness is both a religion and a race, a case could be made for an Atheist Jew, just like their are Atheist Negros and Atheist Asians. It is kind of a sham argument to mix the religion and the racial into one package which is an empty argument. As far as other arguments go, one must realize that once one makes up their mind by whatever definitions they are using, whether commonly accepted or created in their own minds, the arguments used are weak at best and more often than not invalid. Rev. Stosh, M. Div.

Slavery was a moral issue for only a few at that time. Abolitionism was around and held but a small percentage of people. Most people both north and south were either not too concerned about it or didn't care at all. Of course moderns have projected a lot more on this than was actually there. As a matter of fact, Abe Lincoln ("The Great Emancipator") was not that keen on the idea of freeing slaves and for the first half of the war was still willing to retain slavery if the south would cease the rebellion. Slavery was legal and the south was worried more about a slave rebellion than an actual act of Congress that would overturn the legality of slavery. That wasn't going to happen in any of their lifetimes anyway. In order to get the 3/4th' states to outnumber the slave states, for a constitutional amendment, slavery would have continued up until and maybe including the 20th Century. Even with the great "moral" debate going on, Lincoln's solution was to pack up the slaves and send them back to Africa. So where's the moral issue? Lincoln was elected with 39% of the popular vote, a percentage that would have had a very difficult time forcing it's morality agenda on 61% of the US population. Remove the politics, remove the ethics (Bible supports slavery), and remove prejudice (didn't happen until 1960's and then maybe one could make a case for the moral issue of slavery. Remember, once a nation was conquered by another the long standing tradition for the conquered was 1) slavery or 2) extermination. Letting the enemy go to fight again tomorrow was not an option until modern times and it's only caused us 2 world wars and a long term cold war in the process. Where's the morality in that process? Study up your history and you will find morality and ethics play but a very small part on the stage of real life. One can be outraged and indignant all they want, but all it's going to do is raise one's blood pressure and keep one awake at night. Was Lee morally straight? Yep, and as a religious man could quote the Bible as proof. Stosh

One has to remember to use commonly accepted definitions and not definitions that one makes up to support their biases. A person's religion is that system in which they believe. "religion religion [ ri ljjən ] (plural religions) noun Definition: 1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life 2. system: an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine 3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by 4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by The danger is that you start to make fitness a religion. 5. christianity monk's or nun's life: life as a monk or a nun, especially in the Roman Catholic Church [12th century. Via French< Latin religion- "obligation, reverence"] All these accepted definitions can and do fit into the belief systems of Athists. Athism is a religion. They believe in the non-existance of god. If one says a person is a Christian, one has a fairly good idea what they do or don't believe in. If one says a person is Hindu, one has a fairly good idea of what they do or not believe in. If one says a person is an Atheist, one has a fairly good idea of what they do or don't believe in. But when all is said and done, there are those that believe different than others even when it comes to common definitions of words. I can go on and on forever about how blue the sky is, but when it's cloudy, it's grey, when there's a bad thunderstorm the sky is black, at night it is black, but at dawn or dusk it can be red, and then just before tornadoes it can take on a green cast as well. So when someone asks you what the color of the sky in your world, be sure to check the weather and your watch before answering. To those of us who adhere to the definition above, a person's belief system concerning god is their religion. To believe there is no god is their belief system/religion. I guess if I would write my own dictionary, I can make words mean whatever I want them to mean, but until then, I'll just go along with what are the accepted common definitions. Stosh

I never was good at focusing on punishment as a deterrant. Kids are going to be squirrelly no matter what, but those that tried to "Do their best" got special consideration, i.e. denner position, sit by me, stay up later than the rest around campfire, start campfire, be my helper on a project, etc. The boys know it when they are being singled out for a small favor or two along the way. Compliments on how nice the uniform looks, a special thank you, or if they did a really nice job, a written one received through the mail, etc. A lot of my things are "stored" up and when the boy realizes that the many little things that you remember are tallied up and given a nice reward, he'll come to know that he's being thought about for more than just one little thing he might have done once and never again. Maybe the best behaved or the one who struggled the hardest to behave, get to carry the US flag in the closing ceremony, or lead the closing ceremony, or some other special recognition that isn't really announced as such. Maybe something like, "Johnny, would you go help yourself to the treats and then make sure everyone else gets some too?" When someone complains about how Johnny always gets to get a treat first, it can be used as a learning tool to let the boys know how much you appreciate all the work Johnny does to help out with things he wasn't specifically asked to do, or Johnny was doing a lot to help out with tonight's program, I just thought he should help out with the treats too, or whatever point you are trying to get across to the boys. It's surprising how quickly young minds can put 2+2 together on those kinds of lessons. It also gets away from the one action, one treat kind of traps that leaders quite often fall into. I had one boy complain to me about how all the nice things he had been doing hadn't been "rewarded". I told him I had noticed, but hadn't found a nice enough reward yet to let him know how much I appreciated all his work. When he finally became denner I reminded him that this was not because of the nice things he had done, it was because all those nice things he was doing made him the best leader in the den. The boy went on to Eagle in Boy Scouts, but not before he put in 2-3 years as an excellent DC along the way. It ended up he was giving himself so many rewards by his own initiative I couldn't keep up with him. Stosh

What most people, especially athiests, find difficult to accept is that Athism is a religion in and of itself. It simply means the person does believe there is no god. When they say there is no god it is a statement of belief/faith. An Agnostic is the only true non-believer because he doesn't believe in anything one way or the other. As far as ethics? An Atheist can accept and live according to morally defined practices and still atribute them to the creative insights of mankind. He/she can adhere to these standards and make what others would deem ethical decisions. He/she would consider the basis of their decisions upon the accepted norm of human behavior and not have to give any credit to a god or god-like originator. Stosh

When did a parade turn into Halloween? If the people came for a parade, fine. If they came for candy, well, there's always the group behind that will toss candy, people will just have to stand there and stare at what's being offered up. One may not be popular, but no band ever tosses candy and they get away with just what they have to offer. Stosh

Boy-led, adult-support, even simpler. Adult guidance assumes adult-led. By definition, support better describes it for me. Stosh Encarta World English Dictionary, North American Edition guidance guidance [ gd'nss ] noun Definition: 1. leadership: leadership or direction 2. advice: advice or counseling, especially counseling given to students on academic matters 3. systems that control flight: the systems and devices that control the flight of an aircraft, missile, or spacecraft onboard guidance support support [ sə pwrt ] transitive verb (past and past participle supported, present participle supporting, 3rd person present singular supports) Definition: 1. keep something or somebody stable: to keep something or somebody upright or in place, or prevent something or somebody from falling Those pillars support the roof. 2. bear weight: to be strong enough to hold a particular object or weight in place without breaking or giving way Are you sure the ice is thick enough to support our weight? 3. sustain somebody financially: to provide somebody with money and the other necessities of life over a period of time She succeeds in supporting her family on what she earns. 4. give active help and encouragement: to give active help, encouragement, or money to somebody or something We support the charity through voluntary work. 5. be in favor of something: to be in favor of something, e.g. a cause, policy, or organization, and wish to see it succeed Do you support the committee's policy on membership fees? 6. be present and give encouragement: to give encouragement to somebody or something by being present at an event Why not come along on Saturday and support the school team? 7. give assistance or comfort: to give assistance or comfort to somebody in difficulty or distress He supported me throughout the crisis. 8. corroborate story: to give something greater credibility by being consistent with it or providing further evidence for it There is further evidence that supports the defendant's claim. 9. enable something to live: to provide sufficient food and water or the appropriate conditions or facilities to enable people or animals to live or allow something to function A better irrigation system would enable the area to support a larger population. 10. provide assistance with computer system: to provide technical advice and assistance to the users of a product, especially a computing system or package 11. comput permit use of software or devices: to be designed to allow something, e.g. a specific type of software, computer device, or programming language, to operate with it This card cannot support parallel and serial ports. 12. performing arts play small role alongside somebody: to play a subsidiary role alongside an actor with a leading part in a play or movie 13. tolerate something: to put up with something unpleasant ( formal ) The Court will not support such behavior.

The red/black patches of days gone by were pretty cool and indicated in silouette what the animal was. One could add silver fox or red fox to it and let the imagination of the boy take hold. However, now that they color the patches it is a bit more difficult to explain why beavers and foxes are blue, but maybe the boys are all color blind. Let the boys pick what they want, it's a battle that no adult should have to fight over and is a great way to get all the boys working on the same page. Pick a patch, get a yell, make a flag, do it all up to promote den/patrol unity and espirit-de-corps. Once the boys take ownership in the process it will be good for the boys to when they are the Blue Beavers and everyone else is Den 1 and Den 5. As far as the list of meanings? The boys all have them in their imagination. Stosh

The sad part of it all is that there are parents out there that really think along these lines and wouldn't want to disrupt their BFF status with their kids. What will probably happen is the parents who are already considering this action will leave in a huff anyway and those that are bringing their kids up with adult expectations will keep them in the pack/troop. I like the attempt though. I have had boys drop out of scouting because the parents needed a break from all the activity the boy was having to do. It wasn't like sports where one could hang out for a few weeks and get great accolades, but this 365 day season was way too much to expect of a child. Stosh

A lot of stuff flying around, hard to keep up with it and it would require multiple new threads to sift through it all. However, I find that when one makes a comment with no referencing to particular people, place or thing, sometimes guilt emerges to judge oneself in the process. I've seen myself in many situations this way and didn't feel all that great either, but it was important that I saw it for what it was worth. From the initial post it appeared that the CC and ASM's were on one side and the SM off someplace doing his own thingy. Then it appeared to be that the SM needed to get his act together, and if not, the adults were going to step in and take over. I do believe it is BSA policy that the CC has the responsibility of making sure the adult leadership is all on the same page. If that is not being accomplished, well then, maybe the "assumption of guilt" would fall someplace, and according to BSA program dynamics onto the CC. Sorry, but that's not a rule/opinion that I adhere to, but BSA seems to. If that conclusion doesn't speak to anyone's situation, then the only thing I've done is waste my breath. Never have I stated in any post that boy-led, patrol-method means adult-abandoned. (Gotta love those assumptive statesments, but I don't take it as a slam against my character. Don't cha just hate it when that happens?) I only take note of how adults think it is proper to coerce, trick, mentor, coach, assist, etc. etc. to manipulate the kids to do the BSA program. I find it a lot easier for the boys to read the books, understand them, read G2SS and then let them loose. These boys aren't stupid, they know what's expected of them. Never have my boys suggested any inappropriate activity that wasn't shot down by ANOTHER SCOUT! I didn't need to mentor anyone, they take care of themselves just fine. They have the responsibility to run the program as they see fit, they have the authority to make the decisions, and maybe someday when they decide to become a Girl Scout troop, I'll have to step in. Until then, they are doing a fantastic job. The greatest impact I have on the program is monitoring the adults and keeping them from interferring with the dynamics of the boy-led/run, patrol-method, adult-supported program. (I toss that little extra in to ease the assumption that I have abandoned my boys to a world of soccer and movies.) As far as adult teaching, guiding, etc.? Well, when the boys come and ask me questions, bounce off ideas, or just chat, I'm available to LISTEN and offer my opinions/insights as needed. Do they take my advice? Sometimes, sometimes not. Do I guide, mentor, coach, interfer, persuade, etc.? Nope. Laisse faire is the best tool a SM has with his boys. I find my boys mature at a faster rate when they are given the opportunity to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. Sometimes they disappoint me, most of the time they don't. I just have to remember that these boys are only 11-12 years old and have the authority of taking on an adult level reponsibility. Some can handle it better than others. By by the time they're 14-15 and Eagle rank, I'm sure they'll have the hang of things. I had a parent sitting around the campfire with me that started to get up to go help his boy load the boy's gear in the back of his pickup. The boy was small the the tailgate was quite high. I told the parent to leave him alone, the parent turned and asked me if I expected an 11 year-old to do an adult's job. I said, nope, but I was going to at least let him have an opportunity to do so. The boy got his gear in just fine. Stosh

If a person has already made up their mind, is of a single opinion, and really doesn't want to hear any differing points of view, only reinforcement of their own, then maybe they ought to find feedback from places other than an open forum where one risks the possibility of differing opinions. Please feel free to point out the "personal attacks". I very carefully speak in the 3rd person, quote others only when they are misquoting me. I generally find it a good policy to try and remember my mom's bit of advice: Big people talk about ideas, average people talk about things, and little people talk about other people. While I sometimes fail at this, I do try and make an effort. While I do not run a truly Kosher BSA program, I haven't deviated far enough to be deemed sinister or evil (my DE, however, rolls his eyes when he sees me coming with a question) but my boys love it, are excited about it, prefer it and my retention rate is right up there with the best. We are doing a lot more than before my numbers have grown from 5-6 to 20, we have boys that joined up last winter that are now sitting in on SM conferences and BOR's for FC, and we anticipate 30 more this winter after Webelos cross-overs. Now, I may be full of "crap" when it comes to advice, but dang, it sure seems to be working for my boys. I took the focus of a dying troop and turned it into a boy-led, patrol-method, adult-supported program in less than 1 year. I developed an adult corps of leaders that are all on the same page and work well at supporting the boys and staying out of their way. I don't have to worry about my CC and ASM's talking behind my back because we are in constant communication on the merits of the program. I don't have to worry about parents interferring (which they have at times) the CC, Committee and ASM's gently usher them out of the way. If there is nothing I can provide to another person's situation, fine, put me on "Ignore" and let's move on with life. Oops, almost forgot: Boy-led and Boy-run are two different issues? Yep, and what it boils down to is the boy-led program expects the responsibility of execution to be done by the boys, but no authority to determine what the program is to be. This group dynamic is a formula for guaranteed failure. It provides 0% ownership on the part of the boys. To give a person responsibility with no authority to follow through will never work unless one is trying to produce human robots with no leadership skills. True leadership is both responsibility and authority. If a boy has the responsibility to do an Eagle project and has no authority to start, he's pretty much dead in the water isn't he. But alas, some adult will soon step in and grant permission (authority) to do so. Never could figure out how that dynamic can be defined as boy-led leadership. Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

There's a ton of good scout related "movies" out there. There's one on canoeing that is especially good. I'm sure with a little research one can come up with 12 good movies for the boys to watch that would go a long way to justify a big bowl of Trails End and some Koolaid. A little Philmont trailer mixed in might be just the ticket as well. If there's a council camp promo or Jamboree promo that could work too. As I alluded to: with a car battery and laptop and projector, one could even take the show on the road for the boys as well. The more I think about it, the more I kinda like the idea. It might be the one "electronic" outlet that might work with the boys. I'm sure that if one doesn't trust their boys' and their judgment, I'm sure the spector of stag films may haunt a few of those out there. :^) Stosh

...and where was the new skipper of the old ship when you needed a second leader? Kinda makes one wonder what kinds of games are being played out here. Stosh

"By jblake's definition if the boys chose to go to the movies ech week and do nothing else that would be just fine as long as it was the boys decision. What he neglects to admit is that would not be a Scout program just because the Scouts were making the decisions." - BW And what is omitted in this drive-by sweeping unproductive deduction neglects to admit is that I said no such thing. Feel free to quote me. In order to be taken seriously, one has to give at least a modicum of effort to indicte that one actually reads the various comments in a posting. Even by one's own admission: "Which is why Scouting has adult leaders, and why Boy Scouting has adults and youth as leaders. The adults lead the program, the youth lead troop and patrol activities...Its been that way since B-P began the program, even he trained adult leaders." if the adults are responsible for the program, surely one can easily determine by simple logical deduction that movie night is an activity. Speaking in sweeping generalities may show some sort of dramatic emphasis on a point to show one's prowess in the program: "By jblake's definition if the boys chose to go to the movies ech week and do nothing else that would be just fine as long as it was the boys decision." when in fact the subject was more in line with: "Included was a movie night in place of a regular meeting once monthly." I do believe that there was some forum discussion on what good movies might be available to the various merit badge programs? But of course if one was running the program being suggested as appropriate to BSA, that MB could never be taught. (How's that for a sweepingly stupid logical conclusion?) Had the CC taken the time to discuss this with the SM maybe the long term goal of the SM was to use Movie Night as the opening needed to get on the same level with the boys so as to guide the program more in line with the goals of Scouting. After all, it was I that suggested "Follow Me Boys" as a movie for the boys to consider. Duh?!! Maybe some discussion following? Surely the boy's interest in scouting could be drawn in to a more productive activity with a good moderator in on that discussion group. Oops, but of course, that type of activity is not in any BSA literature so it surely has no value in the programs of the BSA. Could one assume that this SM has the skills of a teacher who could facilitate such a discussion? Surely that IS a skill taught to promising young teachers. But alas, unless it is taught by the inert wisdom of BSA, I'm assuming it is of no real lasting value. As I alluded to before, maybe a face-to-face with the SM would be a more honest approach so as to determine what he is actually trying to accomplish with the boys instead of sitting around with the ASM's thinking up ways to undermine the SM and the new boy-led approach. Stosh

Youth younger than 14 cannot join Venturing. There was no memo to miss. Of course with a little creativity, one can make arrangements for

1) Sounds like the CC wishes to run/micro-manage the troop. I don't think a boy-led program will work if the adults wish to control the program. 2) SM is responsible for working with the boys. If CC and ASM's wish to run it, they need to dump the SM and go back to adult-led. 3) Training is not the issue. A definition of what boy-led means is. 4) Adult approval of boy-led program is an oxymoron. 5) Maybe some discussions with the SM rather than bypassing him with discussions with the ASM's would be a more effective and honest approach to the issue. 6) Are the adults ready to disrupt this whole "new" program just because of movie night? Outdoors? Campfire popcorn? Laptop projector and a sheet should do the trick. Sounds like fun. I'd pick "Follow Me Boys" for the first option, then maybe some animal documentaries, etc. Of course if one is going to blow off movie night without anything more than a cursorary glance, maybe one ought to go back to adult-led, sounds like the adults are just looking for an excuse anyway. It appears to me like some of the adults wish to regain program control, not focus. Sorry, I always side with the boys and then work from there. That's what trusting in a boy-led program requires in the first place. Stosh

My apologies, I have always viewed the rank of Eagle a BSA troop issue. Maybe if it was, we wouldn't have so many people viewing it as a graduation from Scouting ceremony put on by the parents. Oops, graduations are a school function. Maybe a gradutation from Church confirmation ceremony, Opps, that is a church function, my mistake again. Hmmm, nope, I just can't come up with a ECOH ceremony for the scout as being anything other than a scout activity. Wedding? Nope, it's either a legal issue or we're back to a church issue here again. Give me some time and I'll try and come up with a good example of where ECOH is not a scout activity....... but don't hold your breath. :^) Oh? The reception? Sure that's a family thingy, serve alcohol? Sure, why not. Cigars? Nope, that's for baby births.... my mistake again. Too many traditions to keep it all straight. The highest rank IN Scouting. It's not an add-on program for families. Maybe if everyone didn't emphasize the narssasitic nature of the award, maybe the boy's wouldn't view this as gradutation from Scouting. Stosh

Very interesting thread which I have kept out until now. 1) Lee was a good general of a small army. His army was located in the east where all the good publicity could be had. Other southern generals were just as good, lasted longer in the field than Lee and are washed under the table by revisionist historians that are supportive of the Confederate Mythology of today. 2) The Civil War was fought to preserve slavery by southerners and to preserve the union by northerners. After 1863 it was added to destroy slavery as secondary to preserving the union. For the first two years of the war, the north didn't care if slavery was preserved or not. Had the war ended before the Emancipation Proclamation, slavery would have been preserved along with the union. 3) Negroes were not enlisted, nor fought for the southern cause until at the very end of the war. They were used as slave labor to build forts, bring supplies, etc. but not fight. 4) The issue of slavery and the issue of civil rights for Negroes are two entirely different issues resolved in our country 100 years apart. In 1860 slavery was "morally wrong" but it wasn't until 1960 that civil rights of Negroes were in vogue. Until then both north AND south had major Jim Crow laws on the books. 5) The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia ("Confederate Flag") never was an official flag of the Confederacy and is NOT the "Stars and Bars". The Confederacy had 3 flags and none of them looked like the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia. If one wishes to know what the Stars and Bars looks like, look at the New Georgian State Flag! They switched from an unofficial "Confederate" flag to a very close reproduction of the OFFICIAL Confederate flag for their new flag. The real joke is that the PC crowd didn't know they had been upstaged big time, still don't as far as I can tell! 6) I have a lot of BSA patches with the Battle Flag represented on it. 7) For those who don't like history re-written, it happens all the time and continues even to this very day by writers on both sides. 8) Maybe it's time to go back to the city patches and dump the stupid council patches anyway. I always like to know where everyone came from rather than just a council patch that looked good and told me nothing. Stosh

"Stosh, most Troops I know provide support to ECOH's, but the event is planned, coordinated, and put on by the family of the Eagle. Those that provide a fully packaged ECOH tend to be adult run units." So it would seem that even though the scout's family often times coordinate the festivities, the ECOH is still the responsibility of BSA. After all it is a rank advancement. While it may be true that parents do plan, coordinate, etc. in troops that someone may know of in their area, it doesn't always hold true that it is that way across the board. As a courtesy, many troops allow the involvement of parents' plans and coordination, it is still up to the troop to provide the ECOH ceremony. The troops in our area have always had the ECOH at a school, church or other public reception hall. I have attended family gatherings for the Eagle following at a second reception at the boy's home. As Scoutldr has indicated, once one abducates to family residence, the control is lost. As far as being adult-led troops calling the shots, our COH's are all patrol-led, each PL is responsible for his patrol's part of the presentations and this shouldn't be a major change if it's an ECOH. The PL or if the Eagle candidate is the PL, then the APL would take over. If the Eagle candidate wishes to have some adult leader make the presentation, he could make his request known to the PL/APL. I just see too many adults doing what a scout should be doing in most of these activities. Stosh

Ain't hypocracy great?! It's ok for scout leaders to drink as long as they don't wear the uniform? Gotta love it! Who's going to present the Eagle rank to the boy? SM? Don't show up at the house. If the parents are going to make the presentation, then there's nothing to worry about or even discuss. A Court of Honor is the jurisdiction of the troop, not the parents. If the parents offer their home for a location, politely decline because of the alcohol issue and arrange something for the boys of the troop instead. A 10 minute reception at the meeting hall with cookies and punch will be a lot more fun than hanging around a bunch of adults anyway. An Eagle presentation is not a family event, it's a troop event. Keep it that way. Stosh

Maybe the equipment could be patrol equipment, then the patrol QM picks his stuff up at the beginning of the outing and returns it at the end and the QM takes care of it the rest of the time. I prefer a QM that works at assisting patrols rather than dictating when and where they operate. It's just a little different in the way we organize things, but I can see where the system will work as it is descrubed. Stosh

If the belts are thicker and wider, am I to assume they are then designed only to work with the new uniforms? Stosh

One does not need to go to the ECOH reception if alcohol is served because it is a family party, not a BSA function. The ECOH is a BSA function and then the boys and scout leaders can all leave so those that need to, can enjoy their alcohol. I would notify all the parents of the scouts to be sure to pick them up immediately following the COH because alcohol will be served. There is no reason why the troop can't have a reception of their own at a place where alcohol is not served so the boys can have a treat. I'm sure the guest of honor may have to go to the family/alcohol party, but that doesn't mean the rest of the boys have to go without. When a difficult problem arises, think outside the box and create an alternative that works in the best interest of the boys. Don't let the decisions of others dictate the course of the boy's program. Stosh