Stosh

Why does it have to have a big issue about needing tour permits, camping regulations, etc. Surely, the boys can get their packs together, get on their bikes and ride 10-15 miles out to someone's acreage and spend the night, riding back in the next day. If one is looking for obstacles, I'm sure anyone of us can find 100 different things that will prohibit the boys from attaining the kind of independence we are all supposed to be working towards. However, how many out there are spending that much energy into making it work for them? There are plenty of places that don't need permits, registrations, etc. that would work out just fine for the boys to try out their first overnight without adults. We're not talking 12 day trek in Philmont on the first outing. Stosh

We had an example of a Webelos leader's influence souring the boys to the extent that at crossover only 7 of the 14 boys crossed. He had them convinced that AOL was the high point of their scouting career and that was good enough. The boys of the troop tried everything they could think of to encourage the boys not coming into scouting but it was a lost cause. The game needs to be played out with a whole team of people from the WDL, WDC, Troop boys/officers and SM. Without everyone working together there are a lot of boys slipping through the cracks at every level. There's a lot to this issue and I did my WB ticket on this subject back in 1993. Now maybe 15 years too late, they're just now waking up to the importance of a coordinated effort between the two programs. Stosh

So, the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 proclaimed: "BE IT ENACTED by the Senate and house of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That all non citizen Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States be, and they are hereby, declared to be citizens of the United States: Provided That the granting of such citizenship shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of any Indian to tribal or other property. (Approved June 2, 1924)" Up until 1924, Native Americans could not gain citizenship unless they married a US citizen or served in the US military, otherwise they were barred from the naturalization process afforded everyone else and they were not considered US citizens even if they were born off reservation in US territory. Stosh

Webelos Stosh

Hmmm, I use touch all the time with my scouts. Whenever I wish to say something specifically to them and want them to really pay attention, I put my hand on their forearm, shoulder, or maybe "adjust" their neckerchief slide. During uniform inspections I may button a flap on their uniform or spin their epilette seam down as I comment on a patch that might not be exactly right, just something to have them notice the importance of the moment. I began this process a number of years ago when I had a problem youth in my organization. After a few moments of the first meeting, he was up sitting next to me as a "time out" kinda thing and everytime he tried to act up, as I talked, would just put my hand on his forearm and he'd quiet down. I never had to say a word to him directly. After that meeting, he never caused problems in the group no matter where he sat and on occasion would purposely come sit next to me. If one doesn't want to actually touch a scout, one can always move into their personal space and talk quietly to them. That works almost as well but more often than not they back away. A touch does the same thing but they don't back away. I have found that this works both ways and the boys will often use the touch technique with me or PL's with their discipline problem boys in their patrols. This touch is never a grab or restrain in any fashion and the boy should be able to move away from it if he wishes, but if done effectively, they never do. I use this technique in all age groups and with both male and female group members. If touch is forbidden in scouting, Scout Vespers is going to take on a whole new dynamic in our council. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

The Organization of American States ("OAS") refers to all states in the American hemisphere. Stosh

As boy led, patrol method, adult supported, as the boys need BOR's it's up to the adults to support them by providing them as needed/requested. With the boys running the show, it frees up the adults to do what they're supposed to be doing. Stosh

Anything that loads below the frame will flop because there is nothing to secure it to. I have found that the bag can be mounted on the front of the bag instead of below it and then tump line it and then balance the load between hips and spine. Becareful of such a practice because the extra weight one can take on with this rig will be tough on those with bad knees and flat feet. Stosh

The Indian nations are conquered nations, just like any other country that is taken over. For many years they were under the domain of the War Department, until in the 20th Century they were realigned into the Bureau of Indian Affairs. For the most part, they are, like Japan and Germany, conquered and given certain rights/priviledges by the Federal government. I do believe as of maybe 1945 Indians have been given full citizenship and Indian Lands i.e. reservations are given special considerations. Indians not on the reservations are U.S. citizens having been born off reservation. Stosh

There are no penalties for desecration of the Flag. Knock yourself out with whatever you wish to do and/or teach your boys. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Yep, just because it waddles and makes a quack noise doesn't make it a duck. There are a lot of people who can justify away in their minds that something is or isn't what it represents. That's not a problem I have to deal with. If one doesn't think: "The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America." It's kinda legalese, but it's pretty straight forward, a little thingy on the toothpick that seems to look like a flag is in fact really a flag, otherwise why would anyone put something that looks like the flag on the cupcake in the first place. Prior to 1920 civilians were not allowed to display flags, I guess there was a reason for that which has taken 80 years to dissolved down into being able to toss cupcake flags into the garbage without any guilt or remorse. Stosh

Since 1865, the sovereignty of the state has been reduced to anything left over after the Federal government has had it's say. Basically it no longer has anywhere near the validation it had before 1865. Stosh

Yeah, and I have had city police, village constables, county deputies and state patrol troopers all tell me that they don't pull people over for speeding until they get about 5-7 mph over the limit. Does that mean they interpret the law differently than the rest of us? And wouldn't it be a great thing to have the lawyers of the US Atty General's office running around nailing ever Tom, Dick and Harry with US Flag code infringement "placed shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both, in the discretion of the court". There's a good use of US tax dollars. How many of Obama's people got fined or jail time? Kinda makes the code rather worthless doesn't it? Just because the law is not enforced doesn't mean it doesn't need to be respected and as leaders in the BSA that tweak the laws here and there, the example we set says a lot about the Scout Spirit and Honor ascribed to a scout's word. I may not get to my feet quick enough in a parade when the flag passes, or I might be distracted a bit and miss one or two, but even so, I stand more than anyone else around. I guess there are some who are more sensitive about the careless manner shown the flag than others. Not to worry, as a worse case scenerio, the fine is no worse than a speeding ticket in some states, and less than a speeding ticket in our state. But then it all boils down to whether this is an issue of the mind or the heart. Stosh

Nolesrule, the Constitution/Declaration of Independence already make room for that concept and if the Constitution isn't working they may establish a new one. Stosh

One is correct in noting: "Expected behavior should not be rewarded. And no it won't kill anyone's program. if it does, there is more wrong than boys not behaving properly." However, as I stated in my earlier post, the reward was for leading in expected behavior, not just doing what is expected. So often we notice the improper behavior and never work at finding that which is good. From the subject of the thread, I was only pointing out that many times doing what is right may in fact be reward-worthy, especially if one is doing it to lead others into a more productive and positive role in the den. Sometimes the reward might simply be, "Thank you, I appreciate your efforts." I wasn't suggesting: "Here's $10 for doing what is expected of you." If the group is squirrelly and someone is getting recognition for something, the boys are going to figure that out and jump on the bandwagon. If that something is good, great if not, then the DL's in trouble. I would be very quick to point out the good (no matter how insignificant it might be) and build on that. Stosh

acco40... :^) That is the Flag Code.... Kinda one of those trees vs. woods kinda thing. "At one time, I had conversations with people from the Army who deal with the flag and flag history as well as the Atty General of the US's office about the flag, treatment and disposal. Postage stamps, patches and toy flags (like the ones on cupcakes) are not considered flags and can be tossed into the trash without feeling guilty." Unfortunately these people can be ignorant of the law just like a lot of others. And thus the insensitivity continues. Acco40 has provided the law with reference to section 3. It would be wise to not only read it, but understand it as well. While one may never be fined for the action, nor even for burning of the flag, but as a representative of a respected organization synonymous with flag ettiquette, one would do well to set an exemplary example. Just ask the Obama supporters who dumped all those flags in the trash after their convention. Obviously there are many out there who have no awareness of the law nor sensitivity of honor to the importance of one's Flag. If it takes an act of Congressional legislation to provide a opportunity to have one's national colors afixed to one shirt, one ought to take note of it's importance. As a person who does research on veterans' graves in our county, I have for many years carried a stapler, tape and needle/thread in my vehicle at all times to repair their flags as the weather takes it's toll. If they can't be repaired, I remove them and dispose of them according to the recommendation of the Code. Stosh

I do believe this story is confused with that of Grant. Grant's wife owned slaves, thus so did Grant, and he emmancipated them rather than selling them soon after he married. As far as Lee being a traitor, the US was a union of individual states. The US government was only for the common defense and international issues. It could not interfere in the workings of the individual states. They were bound by a common agreement (Constitution) such as NATO binds together a variety of different countries. Virginia did not secede from the Union of the states until after Lincoln called for volunteers to preserve the Union by moving against a small handful of states that had officially seceded. Basically all they did was withdraw their membership from the alliance of colonies. Lincoln's definition of Union was going to be tested in the war. Lincoln's definition won out by shear force of arms and the alliance of colonies no longer exits and individual states and their rights ceased to exist. The "united states" is no longer a union of individual states, but one country identified as the United States. The Founding Fathers went to great lengths to insure state sovereignty, but the Civil War changed that to Lincoln's definition of unitary union. At the beginning of the war Lee was loyal to his country, his country was Virginia. That is why the war was fought with army units from the individual states, the US Army consisted of only 14,000 men, way too small to fight the Confederacy. State governors detached their state units to the US Army service, but they never were part of the US Army at any time during the war. Stosh

"Expected behavior? Out of 12 squirrelly kids if only one behaves by doing what is expected, shouldn't he be rewarded for leading by example? Nope. He should be held up as the way you EXPECT the other boys to behave." Kinda does a buzz-kill on leadership doesn't it. If the boy shows leadership by giving a good example of what should be done, it seems like two different issues here. 1) Doing what is expected and get no reward, and 2) demonstrating leadership and get no reward? Guaranteed way of killing off one's program as far as I can tell. The next time one needs someone to break from the crowd and take on leadership, it just ain't gonna happen. Never could figure out how one can try so many different techniques to develop the boys, while at the same time do so much to counter it's effects. I'm trying to get my boys to behave. I have one boy that steps out and sets a new agenda (i.e. leadership) by doing what is expected to draw the others up to a higher expectation. At the same time the adult leaders thank him for doing nothing more than what is expected in the first place. Nope, not for me. That kid'll be back with the rest at the next meeting and the leaders will be scratching their heads wondering what happened to the only kid who made an attempt to behave. It's called peer-pressure, and it'll kill off leadership faster than anything I've ever seen before. Peer-pressure is FOLLOWING, not leading. Stosh

One or the other, but not both, depending upon which way the den wishes to go. If they remain a number, fine, if they want a den mascot, then they go with the "patrol" patch. Each den decides, but it's all one way or the other for the den. Stosh

It is also important to note that the flag in any form, whether it be a flag, patch, or postal stamp, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, THEY ARE ALL TO BE TREATED THE SAME. Well, at least in the U.S. Flag Code ("FC")it says so. What we do in our own lives has no bearing on the the FC. The first use of the flag in means other than as a flag was with the US Post Office who had major concerns about cancelling the stamp of the US flag, and/or people throwing the stamps in the garbage after use. We have long since become insensitive to such issues and are basically immune to any flag respect in our nation to the use of the flag. Even those who are supposed to be aware of the FC, very few actually are. I watch flag ceremonies performed all over by assumedly knowledgable groups such as BSA and I have no idea where they find the information they make up. Stating the flag patch is different than the flag is one such "rule" I've never heard before. The FC is on-line, easily found and is available to every US citizen. It would be beneficial if scout leaders would teach the FC rather than questionable local traditions and customs. Stosh

What one often remembers is that the world of 1860 is not the world of 2008. As a matter of fact, the understanding, assumptions, and interpretations of life are no longer the same. Ideals, priorities, and values are not the same either. To try and understand the world then with the insights of today would be the same as trying to explain the world of a 6 year old using only the words and thought processes a 6 year old would know. It's not as easy as one would think. Go back to the Founding Fathers and one can complicate the process even more. The further back one goes, the further removed from a reality of understanding one can obtain. As far as Lee being a traitor? Traitor to what? What one does not realize is that the Confederacy didn't really do much when they adopted the Confederate Constitution. One would be hard-pressed to find the minor alterations. And as a grouping of states, and not a single country, the Founding Fathers had to jump through some pretty big hoops to get everyone on board, the southern states weren't really all that interested in joining in with the northern states right from the git-go. The concept of the United States being one country is a post-Civil War concept derived from the northern states conquest of the southern states. And no I'm not a southerner, never lived in the south except for the political side-stepping of bringing in the entirety of California into the north even though half the state was below the Mason-Dixon. Stosh

I have a boy that has already started the "transition", he had enough money to buy the epilettes and so that's done. He figures the next step are the numerals. I'm not to worried about it, this boy has scout pants with the red piping on the mule-earred pockets. I figure that maybe some day when he becomes an adult and has the money, he'll figure out how it all gets put together. Until then he doesn't break the rule: "2. Look and Act Like a Scout." By the way, he picked up an old green uniform shirt to wear as a "class-B" because it was cool and cost less on E-Bay than a t-shirt does at summer camp. Even in "class-B" he looks like a scout more than a lot of other boys out there with blue jeans and a camp t-shirt. Is this some scout that doesn't know any better? Nope, he's been working on his Eagle project now for about 6 months, drives a car, might have a girlfriend, holds my only troop officer position and is a great kid. So I'm not going to worry one bit if he even buys one numeral at a time to change over. Stosh

And what was even more remarkable was a large number of free Negroes from New Orleans at their own expense raised enough money to completely furnish and man a complete battery of light artillery. They then offered their services to the Confederacy. When the Confederacy rejected their offer because they were Negroes, they went to the Federals and made the same offer. They received the same rejection. Why? Because the issue wasn't slavery, these were free Negroes, it was bigotry and both sides had their share. And after the Emancipation Proclamation what does one do with all those freed slaves? Let the government feed them, enlist them in the army and whereas all white regiments elected their officers from amongst their own, the Negroes had to have white officers picked to command them. This practice continued on well beyond the Civil War. Kinda makes one wonder why we are worried about R. E. Lee being morally straight when we have enough of our own issues to deal with. Ever wonder why we only hear about the 5th and 7th Cavalry in all the Hollywood movies? Need I say more? Stosh

General Patrick Cleburne and the suggestion was made to General Joseph Johnston. http://www.teachingamericanhistory.com/library/index.asp?document=2195 Stosh

St. Paul was Jewish because his mother was a Jew, his father was a gentile or a "God-fearer" which was a person of Jewish beliefs, but not racial lineage, thus Paul could be both Jew and Roman citizen. However, in America, they make the rules up differently. If a person has one parent Negro, the child is Negro. If one parent is Indian, the child is Indian, etc. Thus we have mulattos running around claiming to be Negro (i.e. our current political environment), when by racial definition they are not. One can play word games all they wish, and argue both sides of any argument with the same supporting evidence, so in the long run it makes very little difference. Toss in a little hypocracy (i.e. Pocahantas Law) and everyone basically tosses it all under the rug and goes to be feeling pretty good anyway. To emphasize that Atheism is not a religion and then say that some religions are Atheistic ("Raelism"?) doesn't do much to further the discussion. Stosh