Stosh

What constitutes training for the scouts? For adults it is very clear, but not for the kids. If the DC takes the prescribed training, if there is such an animal anymore, or does the DL teach the boy and that constitutes training? NYLT? ok, but what about the troop level program? What about TG's, scribes? etc? Stosh

My senior most scout having returned from NYLT stated it was the worst training he has had when it came to boy-led, patrol-method, and has been thus researching back into historical BSA material to "find out how it was really done". He's the same one who stated he wouldn't go to the Centennial Jamboree unless the council contingent was boy-led, patrol-method. Just this past week he snagged up a copy of inquiry.net's patrol leader training and will be organizing that for the boys in the next month rather than the TLT material. Anyone else experiencing a similar situation? Stosh

Maybe the new parent coordinator can organize crafts and activities for keeping the parents occupied and away from the boys on the outing. Stosh

Unless all the Venturing members are 18+ I wouldn't push the issue. Crews need supervision differently than troops because of their co-ed status. Not only is two-deep leadership required but the leadership must be co-ed if the crew in attendance is co-ed. Just think of it as apples and oranges... or maybe birds and bees. Stosh

If the book asks for number of hours dedicated to the project, I would assume that all hours dedicated to the project be included. I can't imagine why they wouldn't be included. What one has to do is decide which of the conflicting "opinions" is for real and which one is smoke and mirrors. Read the book and go with what it says. Stosh

One has to be nuts to cough up $55 for a flag holder. A cloth/leather cup or cone attached to a long strap incorporated into a plastic back pack buckle and one has the same setup for about $10. Most units don't have $110 for two and $20 will be more than enough to solve the problem. Wide nylon webbing can be purchased at any camp store and the buckle will be rather cheap. For what it's worth, I always had my boys drop the end of the flag pole in the cargo pocket of the uniform. Works just fine and doesn't cost anythining. Stosh

Buffalo, Ok... from your further clarification on the posting, do the same whether you are camping or running the troop. I would patrol up all the older boys that are not "with it" when it comes to the patrol method and have them run their own program, i.e. in fact they are using the patrol method whether they realize it or not. Then run the troop meeting as basically a gathering of patrols. Each patrol is in charge of their own program until "further notice". This will being the development of autonomy. Refrain from allowing the patrols to "work together" for a while so they get the idea that they are in it on their own. (100' Rule) No older boys helping the younger patrols. Everyone does their own thing. All troop activities are now defined as a gathering of patrols. They stand/sit together as patrols during flag ceremonies, campfires, etc. so that they develop that "small group within the larger group" mentality. The SPL needs to recognize his focus is not on the Troop, he is not Senior Troop Leader, he is Senior Patrol Leader and his responsibility will be focused on Patrol Leaders only. His leadership focus is on PL's. Nothing more at this point. Are the PL's trained? Are they functioning as head of their patrols? What problems are they facing? What do I do to help them look good. etc. Once one gets through the initial shock of patrol focus, then the SPL can formalize his efforts into gathering his "patrol" into a functioning unit (PLC). The SPL needs to focus his PL's according to their skill levels. Are the older boys planning an outing? hike? something of interest to just those patrol members. Is the NSP planning out advancement, maybe a day hike to do 10 plants and 10 animals, compass course outing? getting ready for camping at the camporee? Is the PL going to need the TG or Instructor for his activity? The SPL coordinates these things at the reqest of the PL so the PL can focus on his patrol program, not the logisitics. To compare it to most adult-led, troop-method programs, the dynamics are the SPL is the "SM" and the patrol is the "troop" on a mini-scale. This allows the boys to function in a small group and experience everything they would have if they were adults running a troop. The beauty of the patrol method is that it offers a small enough group that a young learning leader will not feel overwhelmed with it. 8 boys/patrol, 8 patrols/1 SPL, will give a troop of 60+ boys and no one has a responsibility larger than 8 boys. This is why the patrol method is so powerful and effective. Everyone has an environment that is small enough to handle. Pull your troop officers TG, Scribe, Instructor out of their individual patrols and put them in a Virtual Patrol under the guidance of the ASPL. That way they are available to jump around from patrol to patrol and put out fires, meet needs and serve the patrols without having to worry about short-handing their "home" patrol. This eliminates the conflict of interest and dual focus that most troop officers experience. Stosh

As much distance as possible between patrols! The rest works itself out. Troop officers "patrol/mess" together under the leadership of the ASPL. SPL coordinates all troop necessary functions, i.e. flag ceremony, campfire attendance, SPL meetings, etc. Adults camp together in another area and tag along as necessary. The SPL tends to hang with the adults as the adult/youth liason person and then doesn't interfere in the ASPL's leadership of the troop officers. The reason for the ASPL supporting the troop officers is because the SPL is responsible for supporting the PL's. Stosh

lanyard? halyard? I get half credit for the "-yard" part and another half credit for not calling it the "freakin' rope thingy". Stosh

Maybe for your leatherwork MB someone could make one that would be a little more practical than some of the projects I've seen pass. Stosh

The Flag is folded in the traditional way as a practical matter. When the Flag is presented to the person with the lanyard, both grommets are conveniently located in the most accessable area. Taking the upper clip of the lanyard he can affix the flag to the union grommet and the lower clip to the stripes grommet. Now the flag is firmly affixed to the lanyard without ever having to unfold it. When the lanyard is pulled the flag will, by nature of the folding, unfurl itself right-side-up as the flag bearer continues to stand motionless. If only one person is affixing the flag, he can keep the flag tucked under his arm, apply the clips appropriately and then while holding the flag with one arm, pull the lanyard with the other and raise the flag without any unfolding occuring until the lanyard is pulled. Encased flags are never folded because they are not expected to be taken off the pole, but are always presented already affixed to the pole. They are unfurled and carried prior to the ceremony. Stosh

There is no authorization necessary to burn a flag. Anyone can do it in any fashion they feel like, both respectfully and disrepectfully. The boys should be able to find their comfort zone between those two benchmarks. We run the flag one more time up the flag pole, salute it with pledge, retrieve it. Fold it, which is it's natural state when not on display and place it in the fire folded. The boys hold a salute in silence until the flag is no longer recognizable. The grommets are retrieved when the fire burns down and returned to the original owner of the flag. The flag may have been a veteran's pall. Stosh

17 1/2 for Eagle? Such adult-led concepts must keep a lot of boys from gaining as many palms as the program suggests. Some how the concept of "getting as much out of the BSA experience and Eagles just before 18 doesn't seem to support each other. Stosh

The boys in my patrols/troop believe that until the Webelos boy signs on the dotted line, he's fair game to recruit. One feeder pack said all their boys will be going to the other troop in town, but our boys are planning on visiting the den meeting and doing a program for them, inviting them to a swimming outing, troop meeting and a winter campout all before they cross over in mid-winter. The boys know that the other troop tends to be adult-led and their Webelos leader has an older boy in that troop as well as being an ASM of the second troop. The boys are going to discuss with the Webelos boys the difference between adult-led and boy-led and give them the option to decide individually instead of as a den with a biased leader with personal reasons to recruit as an adult. My boys feel confident because last year this same situation faced the boys and they went out and recruited and weren't happy until 100% of the Webelos crossovers from two different packs all came to our troop, even boys who had older brothers in the other troop signed up. Peer-to-peer recruiting can take on even the best adult efforts! Turn your boys loose on the situation and let them lead. Stosh

Oooh good one! But alas, it was the "caw, caw" used by the early BP style of scouting where the boys pretty much ran things, went to camp and basically didn't have much adult input in the processes. These un-PC pre-1972 books I think may be banned from the boys now that BSA has been enlightened. Stosh

Oooh... oooh... oooh.... let's make it a new knot...pleeeeeze! If it were a knot then everyone would want one. They aren't going to change their ways, but dang, it'd look great in the 12th row of battle ribbons. Stosh

Hmmmm, the stock market crashed in 1929 because the American public was so stupid so as to over extend their credit. Deja vu! Maybe this is just a pre-emptive strike designed to keep the stupdidity of the American public from shooting themselves in the other foot. After all Roosevelt did spend a lot of tax money to solve the problem that the 1929 debauchel created. Maybe this is an attempt to avoid the obvious course we are currently on. It may not look pretty, but what's the alternative? Soup lines? CCC camps? TVA projects? If everyone's on the dole, who's going to pay for it? Stosh

Pee Wee Harris' patrol was the Raven Patrol. Roy Blakeley's patrol was the Silver Foxes. These literary characters were part of Percy Keese Fitzhugh's commissioned work back in the early years of American BSA. Pee Wee, Roy, Westy and Tom all had their origins in these boy's books. Stosh

Because there is no requirement for a book at the BOR, we don't require it. The boys are encouraged to look their best and wear their uniform if they have one. The PL's work closely with the advancment ASM so there is no real need for having a book around. The PL initials the requirement, but turns in a report to the ASM at the same time. This double bookkeeping goes a long way to resolve any problems in the record keeping. When the boy is ready for advancement, he checks with the ASM to make sure all the requirements are fulfilled (sometimes the # of activities, etc, are not necessarily known to the boy where the software calculates that for him). Then he is to seek out the SM because the last requirement is always the SM conference in the process where I take some time to review his accomplishments, etc. make sure he's psyched up for the BOR and then suggest the boy set up a BOR with the CC. By this time there is no need to check up on the book because the boy has reviewed the process, the PL has reviewed the process, the Advancment ASM has reviewed the process and the SM has reviewed the process. All that the BOR has to do is congratulate the boy on his accomplishment. Stosh

Why do boys need an award for everything? Doing what most adults somehow will never allow the boys to do should be a pretty big "win" for these boys without needing a patch, ribbon or medal to remind them that this is really what scouting is all about. Stosh

Unless the Indians were studying at Princeton or Harvard, chances are ursus is the Latin word for "a bear". The other two words seem to be cheesy Latin sounding words that attempt to imitate like something like Latin with the "-us" endings. Yep, if one is thinking that this is some Native American language name, they got ripped off big time. Maybe next time the OA guys ought to call up their regional tribal councils for appropriate names instead of trying to be humous at the expense of Native Americans especially if the name is as important as a vigil name. Stosh

We do not do BORs unless it's for advancement or recommended by the SM in a SM conference. I told SM conferences all the time but most of them would not be considered a SM conference by most on the forum. I spend time getting to know each boy, his progress, his likes, dislikes, how he's doing in scouting, etc. etc. etc. I spend a lot of time talking with the boys and when they have finished their requirements for advancement, I recommend he talk with the CC to set up a BOR. I let the CC know the boy will be approaching him concerning advancement. I also let the boys know they can have a BOR any time they feel they need one, but none have ever taken me up on that suggestion. Stosh

One also has to remember that if the patrol is made up of older scouts, which is usually the case with independent patrol activities, many of them are over 16 and drive themselves to the event. Kinda like what kids of that age do for any other kinds of activities they are involved with. And as a side note, the "theories and speculation" that I put out on the forum is a result of 40 years of working with youth, most of them in the BSA program, leader of two active units in two different programs of BSA and the information I offer to those who wish to learn something is often a result of what the boys have indicated they would prefer doing. As far as a practical nature of the information? Well,... it works, what more can I say. For those who don't like the information, feel free to ignore it. With 1000+ people lurking on this forum, I'm sure it benefits a few. And having studied Latin, I thought the translation was: "Large carnivore that makes loud useless noises", but I may be wrong. "Stosh since according to you, your SPL-less method is the best way to run a troop," If one doesn't take it out of context, this may be true. What the comment made indicated that with 3 patrols, an SPL was not necessary because it would be a position with no function/utility. Next year I anticipate growing large enough for 6 patrols and now an SPL will be necessary to support 6 PL's. The size of the group dictates whether or not an SPL is necessary, not the program. "so tell me: do your patrols go and do this?" I'm assuming from the non-referenced pronouns one is trying to indciate how patrols work independently and are involved in non-adult activities? They do it all the time, starting with their own patrol meetings, camping as patrols, making plans and deciding of what they would like to do without adult interference. This doesn't happen overnight, it is a long and thoughtful process. Boys if given a chance can handle these things very well. "If so, how? Not another subjective lesson that a SM worth his weight would be training them how to do it, or get out of the way and let someone who will, tell me how your perfect patrols do it?" Again, another distortion of what I have commented on. There is a difference between adult-supported and adult-led. If the boys ask for direction, guidance, help, etc. they of course get it from the troop officers which are subordinate to them and the adults who are subordinate to the troop officers. From those positions, boys are assisted with their concerns, ideas, activities rather than told what to do which is the most obvious sign that a troop is adult-led. I would think it would obvious that training, insights, suggestions, etc. all fit into a supportive mentality rather than direct, guide, mentor, coach which all indicate control and leading concepts. "And if so, how does it go?" From what I have observed and the comments made by the boys to me, my adults, and other units around them, it goes very well. They are excited, the program is growing at a speed that is very challenging, the goals they set for themselves are being attained, retention is very high, about 1/3 of the new boys have attained TF, 1/3 SC and 1/3 FC in the first 6 months they have been involved. They went to summer camp and took on in-site patrol cooking/camping, earned 2 MB's and are in the final stages of PL training to take on their own patrols next Feb when new boys come in. Personally? My only concern is that these boys may be progressing too fast and may burn out. I'm always trying to invoke the "Have Fun" rule to slow them down and they insist they really are. "How do you deal with the parents?" I don't. That what a good CC and committee will do for the program. The adult leaders are all on the same page, all pulling and working in the same direction, trust each other and protect the boys from outside interference. It's called teamwork and it applies to the adults as much as it applies to the youth. "How do you deal with the safety of YOUR boys?" There are only three rules that are adult dictated in the program. They are: 1) Safety First. 2) Look and act like a scout. 3) Have Fun These are the only times when an adult (and/or other scout) do not need permission to step in and lead. This is 100% agreed upon by the boys themselves and welcome adult intervention when these things are not happening. As a former EMT-A, I now work in a multi-billion dollar, multi-national industry in the general operations/safety arena. If one wishes to discuss JSHA's, IRA's, and JSA's, feel free to contact me directly. Otherwise, one can assume that MY BOYS are in as safe an environment as humanly possible considering the situation of the program. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

If one doesn't have the skills, determination and courage to develop independence in the boys they are to train, they need to turn over the SM to someone who does. The goals of scouting are simple and if one isn't going to strive for those goals, then let someone who will. If the SM has done his/her job, the patrols should have no problem trying out what they have learned. If one has a problem with that, purchase a $3 million umbrella policy and relax, after all, a kid could twist an ankle at the mall shopping for patrol tents and sue ya blue in the face.... Or maybe he'll just sue ya for not providing a complete scouting package/experience for him. Stosh

The boy completed his requirements, the board failed in their duty to support the boy and the problems/challenges that faced him. It is obviously a case of an adult-led process that basically frustrates boys and encourages them to not just try and do their best, but to always succeed in meeting arbitrary expectations. Does this troop have BOR's for those boys not advancing? Maybe they should be calling boys in randomly just to tell them they are failing to meet their obligations. Ya can't fight city hall, but there's other cities out there who may be more fair in their support of their youth. Stosh