Stosh

When all is said and done and the smoke clears, the Venturing Crews can indeed wear the campaign hat and any other hat they wish. Just because it's not part of the official uniform doesn't mean it can't be worn. Take it off for flag ceremonies and inspections. I wear the expedition hat with the SM pin rather than the adult universal pin, I wear brass numbers indicating my troop, military hat cord, and have received a lot of compliments. It's an official hat made unofficial. After 15 years, no one has ever made any comment about it's inappropriateness. My Venturing crew is uniformly dress in totally non-BSA uniforms, but everyone knows they are a BSA organization because we tell people they are, end of discussion. Stosh

There may be exceptions to the federal laws about 18 year olds not being able to drink and buy guns. In some places a 65 year old can't buy a gun either but a 12 year old can carry one. There are those who can legally drink before they turn 18 as well. With such hypocracy in our legal system, maybe that's why so many people feel it appropriate to make up their own rules along the way as well. I do believe that a person is considered an adult at 18 regardless of the exceptions out there that are designed to keep lawyers employed. Stosh

Kudu, do you find that team-building isn't something that is developed with activities in the "Real Patrols", but is already there? I find that my boys seem to clique together which boys will do anyway without any designed activities. Thus far, I have not had any boys that want to move from their present patrol because all their buddies now are in one patrol (not something they would have said a year ago when the patrols were formed). My biggest problem this year is to try and convince some of the strong leadership boys from the patrols that they should start their own patrols of new boys this coming Blug/Gold season, not an easy sell. Stosh

Wingnut, I'm fully aware of the problems with this magic 18 number. Somehow this person is to switch gears overnight and everything is hunky dory. Real life doesn't work that way. However, with that being said, some 18 year-olds are very mature and can handle the responsibilities and then there are 30 year-olds that can't. This is why I spend a large amount of time training my boys maturity and leadership so that they will be ready when that bit 18 comes their way. Every situation needs to be evaluated on it's own merit. I do like the idea of having a DL that will oversee the process if this young ADL wants a little more hands on than just standing in the shadows of a DL. What's really difficult is for the boy that was a tent-mate one week is no longer able the next. Stosh

Of course one can assume anything they wish to justify their ideas, but what if this young man has had 3-4 years of Den Chief, PL, SPL and/or TG experience and would be a better DL than the DL who comes in as a parent and is taking over for the first time with no training/experience? Kinda makes one wonder doesn't it? Get the boy DL trained and assign him to a den. Just because it says DL and ADL on the sleeve doesn't mean much when it comes to working with the kids. Stosh

By federal law a full-fledged, legal adult is 18. BSA rules is 21 and that's just the way it goes. It's kinda like the Venturing age rules. It's just BSA policy regardless of any legal adult issues. If BSA said 24 it would be 24. Get the boy registered in a position, have him be involved as much as possible and groom him for when he turns 21. If he hangs around in the area he'd be an excellent resource for your pack. Stosh

The packet of old cards comes up on E-Bay every couple of months. That's where I picked up my packet. Stosh

Another option that I have used successfully is for an older boy operate as PL of the NSP. This precludes the need for a TG which seems to be a weak option in the troop. Instead of rotating the PL as suggested to train leadership skills, the NSP rotates APL's into that position and are lead/guided/mentored by the PL. This proximity of an older boy did very well. The PL understands that his job is to train leadership as well as advancement for these boys so the APL becomes an actual leader during his tenure and not just a tag along as most APL tend to be. My PL's all knew that how well they functioned in this manner set the example of if the PL can train good APL's surely this process can be adapted easily to a SPL being able to train good PL's next year. This is the process I'm engaged in at the present time in my troop. Kahits' situation sounds very similiar to the situation I found myself in last year and we took our Webelos boys (18 of them) and put them into three patrols with an older PL in each one. It worked extremely well for some and not so good for others depending on the skill set and attitude of the PL's. Stosh

I used to think one little step at a time was the way to go, but then I found that such processes do more to stifle change than actually bring it about. If the adults are working one step at a time, not only do the boys have to make steps to make changes they have to know which steps to make. This adds to another whole new guessing game where the boys try and figure out where the adults are in their change process. Today we change socks, what gets changed tomorrow? This guessing game really frustrates the boys because they have no idea where the adults expect them to be. I have found that all the adults need to get on the same page as to what the final goal for the troop is going to be and then strive at every step, ever dynamic, every opportunity to direct activities in that direction. 100% change in expectations. Make them clear and the boys will understand. After one intense year of learning, I no longer hear, "What am I supposed to be doing?" when talking to adults and it's been replaced by, "That's my job." when talking to adults. At Buffalo's outing, none of the boys felt it necessary to make a decision and instead of taking leadership initiative, waited and followed what the adults directed. These kinds of opportunities to teach come along all the time and most adult-led programs don't even realize it because it's easier to lead than it is to trust the boys to lead. Even after a year, I am constantly asking myself if this particular activity I'm involved with is being boy led or am I interferring too much? Never do ANYTHING a boy can do on his own. Most SM's get to the point where they tell their scouts to ask their PL's when there is a problem, but how many SM's ask their PL's what they think would be a good solution to problems they face? If they ask for such suggestions, never give them just one. Offer two or three solutions and let the boy make the decision. Keep the initiative of leadership on the boys! If they make a mistake or poor decision, evaluate the problem, look for solutions to rectify things and then let the boy make the decision to correct the error. The SM is there to teach leadership, not lead. Stosh

Creative problem solving is a major part of the leadership skill set for the boys. Having the boys (at any age, even if it's their very first outing) come up with a solution for their problem would have been a great opportunity for learning. By stepping in, the adults took this learning opportunity away from the boys. The boys gain knowledge by watching someone else, they gain knowledge AND experience by doing it themselves. If the goal is eventual independent patrol outings, it might be a good idea for the adults to learn what the boys would do if given this situation on an independent outing away from the adults. Had the boys worked out a good solution to this problem, it would have gone a long way towards the goal of adultless outing approval. However, at this point a learning opportunity for the SM was also lost. Stosh

The plastic bin is a hinged clear plastic bin, cheapie, I'm thinking a WalMart maybe Sterilite brand container. It's about 8" deep by 20 wide and maybe 20 long. If you'd like I can get exact measurements. It fits nicely into the standard Yucca pack #574 I'm that was very popular back in the 60's and 70's. It leaves a lot of room for extras and has the pouch in the flap for duty roster/menu etc. Included in the kitchen I have 3 stacking stainless steel bowls, measuring spoons and cups, knives, long handled spoons, tongs, spatchula, whisk, matches, plastic bags, hotpads, cutting board, etc. In the pack outside of the bin, goes things like welding gloves, table cloth, towels, etc. With everything taken out, it does a fairly decent job of wash basin with the two larger bowls for cleanup. The bowls can also be put on the fire to heat water. It's packed pretty tight so the food would need to be dispersed into the packs of others. Larger items such as big pots, fry pans etc. could be dispersed as well. There are rings on the Yucca pack so a fry-pan could be bungy'd onto it if it wasn't too heavy. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

We try to have as many from the same patrols go in cars together. Troop officers travel together as well. Pertinent information can be discussed on the way to and AAR's can be done on the way back from activities. I like my patrols to clique up as much as possible. Stosh

Semantics? Boy-led does not mean the adults come in and realign patrols, establish new leadership dynamics and then plop the whole thing into the same pot in order to "salvage the weekend". Boy-led means the boys continue to lead as they have in their assigned patrols regardless of the situation one finds themselves in and unless it's a G2SS or YP issue, it is to continue to function as is. Patrol-method does not mean mix and match, it means the patrols function as patrols regardless of how many show up. The activity did not require adult interference, nor patrol realignment in order to go surfing and camp. They could very easily have maintained the integrity of the boy-led, patrol-method very well had the adults stayed out of the process and let the boys problem solve their circumstances and do their scout thing. Stosh

If one really wants an evaluation one might consider the fact that with 6 boys going, it's pretty bogus to have a SPL and ASPL. By stepping in and realigning the patrol"s" what happened was that the two patrols were basically consolidated into one with two menus. They camped together, they had only one leader and to think this is a multiple patrol issue is fantasy. Because of the numbers, the boys basically camped as boy-led, troop-method. Had the boys been separated better one would have seen that. But with the selection of camp area, the situation was destined to be boy-led, troop-method regardless of how many scouts showed up. Boys on one side of the road, i.e. "troop" and adults on the other. Not condusive to patrol method approach. If only one boy showed up from his patrol, would he camp by himself? Nope, consolidate him into another patrol and thus the integrity of two patrols are both compromised. When only 6 boys show up, just go as troop with one leader, call him anything one wants, but don't pretend to think it's boy-led, patrol-method when boys from two different patrols are involved and adults step in and realign things for convenience sake. Stosh

The kitchen I referred to earlier is basically a small plastic storage bin that fits nicely into an old BSA Yucca pack. The scouts can carry it on the front when they are backpacking and still have plenty of room to see around and has the two straps for keeping hands free. In and around the plastic bin one can stuff welding gloves, table cloths, towels, etc. If packed right it should only be 7-10# on the top end and any boy should be able to carry for a stint. When he gets tired, it can easily be passed off to the next scout in line by slipping ones arms out of the straps and the next boy slips in. All can be done without taking off their personal packs. Stosh

I have recommended such a patrol "kitchen" to my boys many times, but until it becomes obvious to them that going without is a problem, they won't be motivated to act on the suggestion. However, if one is a little more adult-led than I am, it might be a good idea to go ahead and put these kitchens together and give it to each patrol to do with them as they choose. I'm thinking though, that the boys/patrols that take ownership in the process will be more apt to actually use them as desired. I personally take a "patrol" kitchen every time I go on a campout and the boys have come over to check it out on many occasions. Eventually they will make the connection and get one of their own. Their timetable and mine don't always match up that well. Stosh

Yes, you're right, it's been hashed and rehashed to death. BSA has specific moral stances and adheres to them. If one doesn't like what that means, find an organization that one prefers instead. BSA seems to be satisfied with what it stands for, has stood for for almost 100 years, and probably isn't going to change in yours or my lifetimes. Give it a rest. Stosh

I "break/bend" the POR rules in two areas, so my opinion isn't worth much but I think it speaks a little to your situation. 1) I have all my Scout rank boys do a BOR. Of course there isn't one required so the boys know this is a freebie and doesn't count. However, it gives the boys a chance to sit down in a BOR setting and walk through what would be expected. It goes a long way to aleviate the anxiety the boys often have when sitting opposite an intimidating panel of adults. 2) Then I have the boys' PL go with them and give them some moral support, for the Scout, TF and maybe SC if necessary. They don't feel so overwhelmed and intimidated by the adults that way. I think maybe your old tradition of having a boy on the BOR was to maybe help the boys in this way. However, I see it more helpful to sit with the boy on the non-member side of the panel as being a bit more supportive and comforting. It's kinda like having a "big brother" help pave the way. As a SM I am not part of the BOR's, but my PL's give me an AAR of the situation after the review so I know what the boy experienced and maybe how he felt about it from a 3rd party observer. By the way, in my former troop, ASM's, parents and committee members all mixed together to do BOR's. The only one not on a BOR panel was the boy's parent and the SM. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I don't try and influence the boys in their selection of yells and so they have done well to come up with some interesting ones. The two that I thought were the most clever were: Pine Tree Patrol - Timber! (But of course) Phoenix Patrol - Stop, Drop and Roll! Stosh

The age thing is purely arbitrary and unnecessary. I run my units with no regards to ages and the boys pretty much act and react in similar manner. In my Crew I have 14 year-olds on the same level as adults of the CO doing like things with no differentiation except by military rank of the hobby. I have NCO boys of the Crew that hold leadership over the privates of the CO with no problem, dissention or discussion. As a matter of fact, it was suggested at the last major national event, that if I couldn't command the company at the event, the leadership would fall to the senior Crew officer to lead the combined group of CO and Crew. It didn't work out, so the senior Crew officer was second in command of a 30 man company on the field. He held a functional leadership position over all the others in the CO and no one had a problem with it. In my troop, 11 year-olds and 16 year-olds all fall into the same category -- Scouts. They tend to gather as rank levels because of the program needs but once they are FC, they are all pretty much at the same level and interact together. My Life Scout PL's are on the same playing field level as my Tenderfoot PL's. They all work together to make the unit function. It took about 3 months to erase the "New guys" distinction from the Webelos crossovers and hasn't been addressed since. I base the POR's on functionality and not personality and so if a TF PL functions as PL he is respected by the other scouts equally as a Life PL who functions as a PL. If one doesn't draw attention to the age differences, the differences aren't always considered by the boys. Those that constantly remind the boys that there are older boys and younger boys, then the boys will adopt that mindset as well. Stosh

Up in da Nort, we go by a different scale. If the temp drops below zero they get a Zero Hero award. No one wears the Polar Bear patch. On any given camporee, the whole council could get the award. There are a few local units that have earned bragging rights a few years ago. On the winter survival weekend, they built snow huts and hunkered down to -43 degrees. The staff asked the boys if they wanted to come in and they ALL refused to get out of their warm sleeping bags and drag the 2-3 miles back to the lodge. The next morning only one car out of the whole parking lot was able to start on it's own. It's kind of a different animal to skin up in really cold weather. When I was a kid in scouts we used to have a red-flannel award for those scouts who camped out 12 months in a row. The Dec-Feb stretch was brutal and we didn't have the fabrics, gear that is available today. Those sub-zero nightes were very long. Stosh

I have found that the continual mixing and matching of scouts amongst different patrols does more damage than good in building any commradarie amongst the boys. Unless there is conflict, it is better to keep the same pards together for as long as they want without adult interference. If the boys want to perpetuate their patrol beyond their scouting experience, they had better train up new blood just like any other organization by taking on the occasional new Webelos crossover. If they figure it out, if they take on one new Webelos every year they will perpetuate their patrol over the span of 7 years of scouting. There is no way I would ever ask a boy to realign himself with a different patrol, nor would I ever suggest that patrols design themselves in any manner other than what they as a group want. The competetive nature of the patrols I have now go a long way to develop the B-P's "gang" mentality necessary for good teamwork and loyalty to their patrols. Like WB patrols, they maintain that bond well beyond normal relationships. How many boys can say that after 7 years of scouting they were a member of the _________ patrol, and how many say they were in 7 different patrols? Where does the commradarie come from when loyalty gets set back to zero every year and who's going to put any heart into the patrol when it's only going to last for a year? Or how much team loyalty is there when I'm in with a bunch of other guys at camporees and outings and not with my pards? Kinda reminds me of the situation last camporee where the patrol that won overall competition was from my former troop. Only one boy out the 6 that competed was from the patrol, everyone else was a ringer. The patrol that won second overall was from that troop too, but their PL was a "member" for the weekend of the patrol that got 1st place. Kinda makes one wonder where B-P's "gang" concept goes in a situation like that. Stosh

When we first set up patrols, each boy was allowed to find his best buddy. Once that occured, all the "left-over" boys were allowed to buddy with each other or stay as singles. Then by hat drawing of numbers, selected the order in which they would pick their patrols. The hat draw was 1 number for each pair or one number for each single. "#1 which patrol do you want to be in?", "#2 which...", etc. The original number of patrols was designated by the number of scouts and a senior scout was assigned PL. Once they knew who was in each patrol, then they picked their secondary buddies when their chance opened up to pick a patrol. This year there will be 3 new patrols to supplement the original 3 from last year so the new cross-overs will have the opportunity to pick an established patrol or one of the new ones. The patrols with an odd number of openings will be restricted at the end. This will occur when a single scout picks and or attrition from last year left the numbers uneven. If the patrol has only one available slot and a pair of boys is up for selection, they cannot both join that patrol and will need to decide on a different patrol with 2 available slots. There's a little luck of the draw, but the onus of decisions is not based on a PL's picking leaving a loner at the end. The drawing made everyone equal and their decision, not the PL's got them their patrols. This system is how the original boys decided would be the most fair and it seemed to have worked out rather well. Before this years cross-overs are given a chance to pick patrols, the scouts already in the patrols may, at their request, move to a different patrol. Once the selections are made, the patrols will stay together for one year and the "reevaluation" process will occur once more. Stosh

When the laws say one thing, G2SS say the same thing and the parent doesn't agree, then the parent has the option of not letting their child ride with an 18 year-old ASM. However, it may be a good time to look into troops that do not have 18 year-old ASM's if they are all that concerned about it. The law does not differentiate between 18 and 81 when it comes to adulthood. If parents do, step up and drive or have your child take a pass on the activity. Stosh

SSScout I had my boys do the on-line portion of DC training, but it was touted as just the fast-start part of the program but needed the "rest of the training". I checked with my council concerning this, they said if I wanted it, I should teach it. I said I would be happy to if they would send me the curriculum. After two weeks, I haven't seen hide nor hair of the materials. It's gotta be buried pretty deep to be any regular part of our council's training program. So the question remains: if the boy completes the full DC training, does he wear the TRAINED patch with the DC POR patch? I assumed that with adults one does not wear the TRAINED patch with whatever POR patch unless trained for that specific position. Without any specific directive, I guess one just does what they want then. Stosh