Stosh

If he's wearing blue jeans, he's not in uniform, he should be using the civilian salute with hand over heart. When my boys show up without uniform, they stand with the parents and salute as a civilian. Stosh

I don't think a Philmont hat should be considered part of the BSA uniform. It comes off at flags. Otherwise, maybe his lucky Pinewood Derby cap would do well on a boy when he goes for his Eagle BOR... Yeah, right, that's gonna fly. Stosh

Or, maybe if they were trained to be leaders (i.e. PL's) rather than just Target First Class the first year, when they are 12, they'd be ready to take on a PL position. After all, Be Prepared is there for a reason. Maybe we ought to focus more on leadership skills even though they are not part of the rank advancement process sometime well before they have to demonstrate leadership skills in an Eagle project. I've never been a fan of NSP being lead by a Webelos, but I think every scout in a NSP ought to be trained along with rank advancement. To often we focus on TFC skills and forget about the leaderships skills until they magically turn some arbitrary age, reach an arbitrary rank and then dump them with leadership responsibilities without any hands-on leadership skill development. I'd bail under those conditions too. Stosh

If cub programs are somewhat successful because they have adults running it, is it a valid assumption then the boys can't used that model because boys can't run it? While I may be constantly perceived as boy scout bashing as it has been referred to in the past, maybe if one were to accept the premise that if it works for the cubs with adults leading, it can in fact work for the boys with boys leading. After all isn't that one of the major goals of scouting? Of course if adults always have to run the program and they won't teach leadership to the boys, then I would 100% agree, the cub program dyanmics of small groups being lead by qualified adult leadership, then it won't work in the boy program because the boys are not allowed to be qualified leadership of their own patrols. Yes, there's a learning curve, and I'm willing to concede that not many adults work their boys through that curve and even if they go through the motions, they do not trust the boys to lead themselves with the same autonomy an adult would be allowed to run a cub den. I do see a variance of quite a large proportion between developing leaders of small groups and developing Eagles of rank/skill advancement. Maybe it all goes back to the expectations. Webelos boys cross over expecting to become true leaders and learn meaningful leadership skills, and when that doesn't happen, it's off to something else. I have found that many of these 11 year-olds are a lot more saavy than we as adults give them credit for. Stosh

I agree there are a lot of legal eagle adults out there ready to jump all over BSA for letting their boys out on a patrol activity, but does that mean we are to abandon the focus of BSA on developing, mature, independent, young adults that can take care of themselves once mom and dad are out of sight? I guess I'm in favor of helping the boys grow up even if it means taking a risk, after all, isn't that what growing up is all about? :^) I guess if I have to go to jail for something, it would be okay for helping a young man grow up. Stosh

I, for one, am 100% in favor of outsiders commenting on the forum. Too many times we get into some ingrown thinking that outsiders can add a fresh perspective from outside-the-box. eagle77: that is why my boys don't run their PLC according to BSA guidelines. They do not have to do everything together as a troop. If 3 patrols want to go to summer camp and the other patrol wants to go for a week of kayaking, they are allowed to do so. The PLC supports patrol activities, not direct them with votes. If one cub den (boy patrol) wants to visit the local fire departement (BWCA) the night of the pack (troop) meeting (Summer camp), there's no big deal, why should there be in the Boy Scout program? Cubs seem to do better at focusing on a wide variety of different progams (Tiger -> Webelos) and not run amok. Why can't the BS program do the same thing? Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I have often wondered how elite/honor/older-boy patrols fared against a majority of medocrity and/or newbie patrols out there that consistantly out-vote them at the PLC's? Going to summer camp for the 7th year in a row can't be much of an inspiration for the older boys. Stosh

In neither my Crew nor my Troop do I have a problem recruiting adults. As a matter of fact, I often have too many and they basically are looking for something to do. I have them on a lot of "projects" to keep them busy until the boys have need of them. Stosh

Hmmm, I noticed an emphasis on competition and accomplishment that seems to run through the thread. If scouting is a progression of development, why is it there are ending points in the middle of the process? AOL and Eagle, being the two biggies. But then after the boys have achieved these two milestones, then it's time to quit. Maybe the emphasis on accomplishment of certain measurements isn't the route to go. Is wearing the SPL patch the ultimate goal of leadership? Maybe the JASM is the ultimate goal of leadership. Only a few get to wear those. What about the boy who grows and matures into an honest, hard working individual, cares for others and is one of those kids any parent would want to call their own and yet he never got Eagle, Star maybe at best? Is he a win or lose when we start to tally up the score? Maybe because one can only win in scouts if they get AOL or Eagle, we tell our boys they somehow don't "measure up". Maybe the boys that carry their accomplishments someplace other than on their uniforms need to be recognized somehow, too. What is the real message we are telling these boys to make them drop out? Stosh Stosh

The drop out rate of 25% is not based on number of Eagles. The surprise came when the drop out rate of 25% coinsided quite well with the number of boys getting Eagle. Yes, a few boys may age out at Life without their Eagle, but we're still talking a majorly small percentage of boys entering the program, whether they Eagle or not. While "numbers games" might not appeal to many scouters, it does however, raise a major red flag that seems to be swept under the rug. If this was public school, the public would be in an uproar, if it was a church, they'd be looking at every evangelism program in the book. Yet, scouts look at it as business as usual for just an elite few and life goes on. Stosh

I'm glad I'm 6' with a 34" waist. I was hoping to measure up.... I guess I don't always find the nerd/geeks in my troops. Yeah, they tend to be a little strange, but then every kid of that age has their quirks. I guess the part of this whole thing and why I did the thread was because there are so many out there that think "it ain't broken, so why fix it" and/or well we reach 3-5 of them out of every 100 that join up and they get their Eagle and that's a good thing. Granted it's a volunteer group, but I know of no school, church, adult group, etc. that thinks a 95% dropout rate to be "Okay". Why is it we accept it for BSA? Is the problem the program? the adults? our culture? the boys? the attitudes? Maybe the elitist attitude of only a few area allowed to get Eagles. Kinda makes one wonder, doesn't it? Stosh

When I worked for a council, I was exclusively Exploring. In my tenure I set up about 45 posts, so at one time they did exist. There are no Venturing forums in my council now. I have put in 9 years as a crew advisor and can't get the leader knots because there aren't any forums, RT's don't count. Crews survive like any other program. If they meet the needs of the youth, they survive, if they don't, they fade away. Stosh

asm 111, I realize I left out the "adds later on" statistic in my calculations, but I only had the two numbers, % of attrition and % of Eagles to work with. I do know that older boys do join and that is a good thing. The only point I was trying to get a handle on his the acceptable degree of attrition contributed to the program. We have an opportunity to influence the boys almost their entire lives and what we see happening is that in the adolesent years, those most critical, we seem to really drop the ball. It's hard to believe that it takes 30 Cub Scouts to attrition down to a huge troop of 50 boys, and yet we pat ourselves on the back and say how great this is when in fact the numbers are quite embarrassing. I've done some things different than the standard program and the boys seem to like it. It might not work in the other programs, but it seems to be working in the Crew and Troop I'm involved with. As an adult I see how Scouting is a good thing for our youth, but that's not the purpose of the program, it's to show our youth it's a good thing for them. Somehow that message is not getting across to them. I don't know what the reason for that, but I'm sure it's a far bigger fix than one or two "easy answers" just floating around waiting to get picked up by accident somewhere. I do know that if any organization experiences a 25% attrition rate, 1) it isn't going to grow, 2) it's not going to be anything of lasting value, and/or 3) eventually it's going to pick up a bad reputation. From the numbers, I can only assume that there are a lot of boys and their parents that have great expectations when they enroll their boys in the program, only to have them disappointed along the way and they seek out other alternatives looking for something of lasting value for their kids. I'm thinking it's something fundamental that is going to need to be changed, not just a gimmick that's added on to bandaid the problem until the world changes again. Scouting may have "changed to meet the needs of a changing world", but in fact I'm thinking it may have just become disconnected somewhere along the way. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I was playing around with my spreadsheet program and decided to do a little project based on the numbers being produced by BSA to see just how accurate/reliable they are. If a boy is in Cubs for 5 years (Tiger, Wolf, Bear and 2 Webelos) and then goes on to 7 years of Boys (11 - 17 years old), with a 25% attrition rate, how many Cubs must come into the program to create the 2 - 3 Eagles on the other end. I worked the numbers and they come out correct. 75 Tiger Cubs are needed to have 3 boys left over after that attrition rate, and by the way, 4% of 75 is 3. Kinda makes one wonder what kind of program can survive under those circumstances, especially when we seem to accept the losses in numbers especially when it comes to let's say Webelos cross-overs, girls, cars, sports, and every other program out there that seems to offer more to the boys than the programs of the BSA. Maybe the adage, if it ain't broke don't fix it applies here. It ain't working so maybe we ought to do something about it. Why has such losses become acceptable to the program? Stosh

Enterprise has strange "insurance" rules and we have run into trouble with them in the past. We avoid them with a passion. We have always gone around them including going with Hertz (which does rent 15-passenger vans) at a higher price (twice as much). Here's the pitch we got from them on the last trip: Wisconsin to Missouri. No problem driving in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Missouri. The only problem was with Iowa. Iowa laws were no different than any of the others, but Enterprise didn't insure 15-passenger vans in Iowa. Go figure. We rented with another local company with no problems. Stosh

Well, I do BSA heresy. I tell my boys that not only do they demonstrate their ability to do the requirement to their PL to have the requirement signed off, they are to be prepared to teach it in the very near future to some younger scout. As part of the boys' recruiting process, last Monday we visited a Cub Webelos den meeting, brought parachute cord to cut up, demonstate and teach fusing, then teach the Webelos the square, tauntline, double-half, and bowline knots. Each boy had a Webelos whom they spent the night getting to know, and to teach some basic knot skills. I saw only one BSA handbook out from my weakest scout who was eventually assisted with his Webelos buddy by the SPL. My boys had 2 days notification on the meeting so they didn't get much chance to practice, but they did just fine. All but 3 of the boys were February/March crossovers themselves. Stosh

One of the problems with achieving Eagle is that the process is for the individual, the character building, leadership, brotherhood, and organizational skills comes from the many other aspects of scouting that is often overlooked when taking the narcassistice approach of marathon to Eagle and the acolades, resume line, scholarships that the patch will benefit the wearer. It's kinda like the AOL syndrom I faced when I was Webelos leader. Do I work with the pins' skills, the teamwork of the den, the outings and camping, etc. or do I design a program so that all the boys get AOL? I constantly remind my boys, once the general gets the star on his uniform, he doesn't quit the army, it just tells everyone that he's finally met the minimum requirements for being cream of the crop in leading others. Too many people over emphasize scouting as only rank advancement, not character building and maturity development. The only decision one makes is which is the higher priority? Stosh

I have a boy that just had his Eagle project dumped by the sponsor. They wanted a gazebo made of pine, then they wanted it made of cedar (after the boy priced out pine, back to square 1) then they only wanted it about half the size of the original plan, finally they said they didn't want the gazebo built at all. Solution for my boy? Get another project and start all over, record the effort of the first project because everything he did on it was part of his showing leadership, and his biggest leadership decision was the cutting of one's losses and moving on to something that will actually produce results. Stosh

It's kinda like the difference between hosting an event where one's guests are a high priority and organizing an event where the priority is on the event, not the people attending. While my boys were not all that excited about helping Cub Scouts make beaded necklaces for the recent craft project at the Cub-o-ree, they looked upon it as a service project of making sure someone else had a good time, kinda like an adult would. Maybe it's just a maturity issue. Stosh

I kinda thought it was somewhat strange that my boy organized advancement went faster than the adult organized advancement. I have one boy make FC in 6 months and the bulk of the rest of the webelos crossovers are 2nd class with only 1-2 requirements left. My first reaction was the boys weren't actually doing the work and their PL's were just writing them off. However, I found out that the boy that made FC in 6 months, the FC-2 requirement (compass course), the boy did wasn't quite correct with the requirement. He didn't actually DO the course, he designed one and is now teaching his buddies it. This was a stumbling block for a lot of his buddies getting their FC, so he took the initiative to cure that problem. His 15 year old brother is completing his MB's at the present time because his Eagle project is done and he's just tying up loose ends. He completed his project while he was still 14. I'm thinking that allowed to go at their own pace it may in fact be quicker than adult paced programs. Stosh

How about telling the boys to get up off their butts and do some leading instead of sitting around waiting for someone else to entertain them. Obviously the adults no longer entertain them to the level of their wishes and so it's boring. So instead of doing something about it, it's a lot easier to sit around and complain. As a new SM I would refocus my attention back on the new guys and train them with leadership skills so that when they get to be 15-16-17 they have the notion that maybe they're not going to be treated like Cub Scouts forever, and that if they wish to be entertained on an adult level they had better start doing it for themselves. There's nothing worse than a group of parlor scouts sitting around whining about being bored. Give them a match and a blanket and tell them to go camping. Obviously any leadership development for these boys has not happened, and at that age with that attitude, I doubt whether any is going to develop before 18. Just do the normal thingy of getting the boys occupied with an Eagle project so they stay out of everyone's hair, they get their neato patch, nice party, and a great line on their resume AND best of all they no longer infect the rest of the troop with their negative attitude. And as one final note, one can be assured these boys have NOT invested much of anything in the welfare of this unit so I wouldn't worry too much about that. I have emphasized boy-led so long that none of my boys ever complain about being bored even when they are, because if it's boy-led and they're bored, they've got no one but themselves to blame for it and they know it. Once we got that settled, none of the boys are bored. Stosh

The speed of advancement in my unit varies among a variety of different dynamics. Those patrols with older boys tend to have pre-FC scouts advance faster than those who have only a post-FC scout as a PL. Then it also varies between scouts. A NSP patrol may have one boy just getting his TF while another in the patrol is wrapping up FC. Every patrol is different, every PL is different, and every scout is different. As long as the boys are comfortable with their progress, we don't make a big issue of advancement. As far as practice is concerned, the boys working in the patrols find out those that don't advance, don't hold up their end of the work. If a boy can't cook, he ends up on KP a lot, it's a great incentive to learn to cook. If he doesn't do well in other skills and is behind, the boys work at getting them up to speed. It's all in the hands of the patrols to figure it out as to what works best for them. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

That sheet is in the 1911 handbook reprint and I do believe Kudu has it on the www.inquiry.net site. All officers of the troop have a 6' staff as part of their uniform. (Boys' choice) Stosh

If it is concluded that I have attached someone and instead of commenting on the issues at hand, I offer an apology. However, do take Beavah's comments seriously and although I have missed his emphasis, I apologize to him as well. I do understand the problems to the written word vs. the spoken word. I do find it frustrating that the first assumption on a comment is always assumed in the negative. Just because I say I like chocolate ice cream doesn't mean I'm bashing vanilla, yet very often on this forum that's the meaning being concluded. Unfortunately for those posting as such, it means that because I like chocolate and my boys like chocolate, we're not going to be all that excited about vanilla and it torques their shorts. If there are those who like vanilla and won't change, fine. No problem. I'm happy for them. If there are those who like vanilla but would like to try chocolate, fine, it might be something that will benefit their program, great. What happens when there's a group of boys out there that want chocolate and all the leaders are vanilla? or vise versa? But please don't expect me to be a cheerleader for vanilla when I prefer chocolate, and don't dump assumptions on me that because I like chocolate that I think vanilla isn't as good. For me it isn't, but there are plenty out there that disagree, and that's okay. In my situation, the DE was looking for a chocolate leader to go with a chocolate unit. It's working out very well, but your mileage may vary. Stosh

A magnifying glass or wood-burning iron will do a nice job of decorating a staff as well for those who prefer to burn themselves instead of cutting themselves. Parachute cord with a repeated half-hitch will put a nice spiral ridge on a grip, tighter the knot, faster the spiral. It is also easy to take off if the rope is needed. Everyone does it differently. I use a larger/heavier staff rather than a hiking staff. It is pine closet rod, has a hook on it and is 6' long rather than the traditional 5'. Because of my personal preference, the boys in my troop also use a 6'-closet rod staff with hook, it makes a nice patrol flag pole for the PL's. Stosh Stosh