Stosh

Teri: Our boys do not follow the Venturing awards program. Over the past 9 years (almost 10 now) no boy has earned the bronze award nor did they do any of the requirements for it unless it was totally coincidental. I'm the last person one would ask about BSA Venturing Awards. :^( However, with that being said, I did/do have boys that have attained legitimate rank in the reenacting hobby and are capable of fulfilling adult level operations in the unit. Last summer our senior most boy commanded a mixed company (Venturing youth and adult members and CO members as well as non-member reenactors) at a national event. Two other boys held non-com officer positions. So far I have asked each crew member personally if s/he would be interested in the venturing awards and they have always declined. Kahuna: Our standard Venturing uniform is the US Army dress uniform of 1863-65. We do wear other uniforms for various occasions. We have the fatigue uniform of 1861 as well as NC confederate uniforms for various reasons. Some of our boys have done WWI and WW2 as well, but those uniforms are not the standard. In the reenacting world, no one ever depicts an certain individual who has earned medals. However, in the living-history world where we sometimes venture, we do portray an individual who may have been awarded a medal, but we portray in the period of activity and not post-event which would imply the wearing of a medal. Whenever I portray an individual at a specific event (cemetery tours, etc.) I often times will don full dress uniform of the period if I know his military history (i.e. I wouldn't wear an infantry uniform if he was an artillery man) or civilian clothing which he would have worn for the majority of his lifetime. It's a little like theater, if one is doing Shakespeare, one does not wear modern clothing. No modern BSA or any other "medals" insignias, etc. are worn by the crew members. Stosh

I didn't want to hijack the thread so I'll start another. Once one crosses over the line into Venturing one's emphasis on military often times gets very muddled. I do believe sea scouts use actual navy uniforms. So obviously there isn't too much forbidden on the Venturing level. We are a US History Venturing Crew and we can do reenactments of any time period both military and civilian. If we wanted to do Rev. War, no problem, we can do Vietnam and WWI and WWII. We did a timeline in a Memorial Day parade and one of the Venturing leaders wore his Gulf War uniform, the other members covered the other wars. We portrayed outselves as a Venturing Crew of the BSA and of course won the overall award for best parade entry. Uniforms? Yep, some of the real things when we cover the WWII -> today. There are enough original equipment that we don't need reproductions. As far as the large bore restrictions in G2SS? This is the biggest "joke" of the reenacting world. If one is an infantry man in CW reenacting, the safety is only what the unit teaches. We strive for safety above all as do most units. Not all, but most. Cavalry use 36" sabers riding often times rented horses at full gallop over the field. When they put the sabers away, they haul out the blackpowder handguns and start firing those as well. Safety? Just what the unit makes of it. Artillery on the other hand??? They are the only units in CW reenacting that require national certification on safety training and adhere to extremely strict monitoring of the gun usage. No one under 16 touches the powder, fuses, or mans the guns, but can be part of the unit and learn from the ground up. So in light of all that... BSA prohibits the youth from participating in the safest units in reenacting. What they have been doing is taking their cue not from reenactors, but from the media which jumps on the obvious mistakes. There are an occasional media coverage of an accident, but each one is closely monitored by the hobby and all have been proven that out of the millions of rounds fired, those that make the media are the .0000000001% of the idiots that somehow make it onto the field. When all is said and done, the boys are more likely to injure themselves on a homemade spud gun than on a 12# Napoleon. Stosh

Naw, I don't think you're a softy, but sometimes it takes a little more communication to make sure everyone is on the same page. If one wishes to help out the troop by providing LOANER equipment so that the boys have some nice things to camp in, that's admirable!! But it makes sense to everyone concerned that these items are to be turned in when the boy is done with them so that some other scout can make use of them. The boys can take it home if they have a place to store it. If not, just keep it for them when the next campout comes around. It's not an issue of having nice things for the boys, it's just a matter of making sure everyone knows exactly how the program works. I can use this equipment, and when I'm done I return it. No big deal. This happens every time I borrow something from someone else. It's not a gift, I borrowed it and it is expected that when I'm done, I return it in good shape or buy another one to replace it. Now, if the SM or DL gives me a gift of equipment, that is a whole different story. I just think it's necessary that with that much $$$ involved, that everyone fully understands the program so there are no hard feelings on anyone's part. Stosh

Obviously some communication would have been better up-front with this situation. If the parents were trying to sell other people's property on craigslist, then it is a criminal act which can be prosecuted. If the items were given to the boys, they can decide what they wish with what belongs to them. Why was this not properly identified as to actually who owned the property and what is expected when a certain time period has passed. What was said to these boys? Was it a gift or a loan and was this explained properly to the parents (They are the one's ultimately responsible for their safekeeping if it was loaned equipment.) A very large magic marker goes a long way to mark this property as to who actually owns it. If it is marked the property of Troop #XX, Anytown, USA and when it is seen on craigslist being sold, the police can step in a retrieve the items in question as evidence. "I have purchased sleeping bags and given them to the boys only for them to not bring them to the next event or their parents/siblings selling them on craiglist." It sounds like these items were a gift and they can sell them if they wish. "I was considering purchasing them for each boy tagging them with their name for use during their tenure with our Pack and Troop." Still sounds like they are the property of the boys if the boys' names are on them. If one is NOT giving these items to the boys, mark them the property of the troop or put your own name in them. Number them so it can be identified as to which boys received which numbered item. This is what a Quartermaster is responsible for. It sounds just to vague to make sure who owns what and what expectations are attached to these items. Stosh

Gee, the B/G's here are usually 3-4 hours long and no one complains. It must be just local custom. Both the packs are well bigger than 50 Cubs a piece. Both run basically the same type of banquet. 1) Gathering and socializing, 2) potluck dinner, 3) FOS during the dinner, 4) Awards and Webelos Crossover, and finally 5) the program. This program is usually a magician, animal presentation program, something like that that the boys would like. We figure that people can leave at any time they wish. Those that want just a dinner, can leave right afterwards, those that have advancement can stay a bit longer and those that want to stay for the program can stay the whole time. Most of the people stay the whole time. Stosh

I guess I'm going to hell for this. One of my first purchases as a scout was a military trenching shovel. I have a small military pouch that has carried my first aid kit on my belt for almost 40 years now, I have a web belt that I carry a military hand ax and first aid kit. Just last camporee I slept in a military pup tent. Last time I was at winter council camp, I slept on a military surplus barracks bunk. I used mililtary OD wool blanket. When it rains, I drag out my OD poncho, so my Alice pack doesn't get wet. and my jungle boots I use for canoeing for the past 10 years might be a problem too. Hmmm, I guess I have a ton of military surplus equipment, including a half dozen duffles I use for canoeing. Gee, I wished someone over the course of the past 40 years would have pointed this out to me. About half my camping inventory is military surplus. Go figure. It all works just fine and I guess I'm not in any hurry to go out and replace it. Hopefully this ruling doesn't apply to Venturing too. My whole crew is 100% outfitted in military reproduction and surplus equipment. I read somewhere that Baden-Powell wanted a 13th Law but dropped it for some reason, Don't be foolish. I guess in the spirit of such a thought, wouldn't it be foolish to require boys to only use BSA equipment? After all the original scout uniform was modeled after the doughboy uniform of the time period. Maybe it's time to be a little more practical and not worry so much about military surplus equipment. PC isn't always practical Uniform is a whole different animal. BSA 100% with maybe a necker exception. If he shows up in January with an Air Force parka on over his uniform, I can't yell at him because I'll be wearing my wool Navy pea coat over mine. Stosh

I have found that the boys will "test" the leadership and the post seems to indicate this may be the problem. Sure, it's okay to let them stew in their juices for a bad choice, but if the boys only follow an adult's agenda, then it's an adult led program. Suggestion?: Do Green Bar training, TLT, NYLT, your own thing (SM expectations for the program spelled out in detail), etc. HAVE ALL THE BOYS TAKE THE TRAINING. Then from the boys, assign a PL that will lead. If there is enough boys (+8) for two patrols assign 2 PL's NO SPL for now. Get the patrols to function first! If the patrols don't function as a separate entity, then all the other "officers" are a waste of time. If the PL doesn't function, put in a different boy until one gets a boy that functions and can lead and can set an example for the other boys. Until that happens, the patrols will flounder and constantly look to the adults to bail them out, i.e. adult-led. Tenure is as long as the boy does the job. If he's not doing it on his own, then put someone else in there. They have all been trained and they should all get the same chance at the position. If a boy really needs the PL position for advancement, he had better step up to the plate, get into the PL position, and work his butt off staying there and doing a good job. Until that happens, the unit will constantly stand around until an adult takes the reins. These boys have all been taught to follow and be entertained. Unless it is clear the boys are really going to be doing the leading and one is serious about getting it started, the boys will continually "test" the resolve of the SM. Stosh

If one is into the hippie scene, there's a ton of old macrame books out there that give a lot of insight into how to make great thingies with paracord. They also make great grips for walking sticks and other things if one gets into mariners' knot books. I have a sequence of 4 strand turk's head knots on my walking stick and 50' of cord half-hitched for storage if I need cord for an emergency. A 3' piece of cord makes a 3 strand of turk's head woggle. Also an additional length on woggle will suffice for a whistle strand that reaches the shirt pocket and doesn't wrap around a boy's neck. Worse case scenerio, the boy snags the cord and it pulls the woggle off the necker instead of choking the boy. Stosh

Having the opportunity to work with youth groups for almost 40 years now, I can assure you that there are a number of factors that apply to stability in a unit. First one must accept the fact that all programs are cyclical in nature. They are as volitile as the stock market in the year 2008. With that being said, one can relax and don't panic, it's part of the program. One of the reasons for the rise and fall of the units over time is because most of the program dynamics are often times resident in the personalities of individuals. One gets a good leader, things grow, he/she leaves, things decline. One gets an exceptional scout, things grow, he gets his Eagle, things decline. Accept this as normal. If that be the case, one can minimize the impact by not relying on these people to maintain the program during their tenure. Develop the program, not the people. If an exceptional SPL trains his successor, there should be a minimum amount of impact on his transition in to the next guy. What happens most often is one has a good SPL, we ride the crest of the glory wave and when it's over, it's over. Take the time to put one's energy into defining the position of SPL, what works, what doesn't, and then train to the standard. Don't rely on personalities, rely on the program and training to the program. If the BSA dynamics aren't working for you and a boy has found a great way for your troop to grow, go with it. Document it and pass it on to the next leader. Stosh

When I came on board with my unit, I announced that bullying would not be tolerated. If anyone reports to me that they have been bullied, the offending party will be finding something other than scouts to fill up their time. I haven't had any problems. Stosh

An official scout uniform complete for any and all scout activities. If one doesn't want to be caught dead wearing such a uniform, don't join the program. I have yet to see any high school football players show up in a t-shirt and jeans to play a Friday night game. If the schools can get away with it, so can I. If a boy can't afford a uniform. I buy him one off of E-bay. Sometimes the council strip and numerals cost more than the uniform, but there's no excuse for not having the right equipment for the activity. Can't play hockey without a stick and skates, can't play scouts without a complete uniform. Since I stress that policy in my unit, my biggest complaint thus far this year is that one boy has been bugging his parents for the full NEW uniform. They think it's kinda expensive, but then Christmas is just around the corner... The only time the boys do not see me in full uniform is when I take my annual swim test. Stosh

It's just as important for the DL's to take DC training as the DC. If they don't, they could very well be wasting a lot of people's time. Stosh

What one often wonders is the purpose of the hat. I have a campaign hat, non-BSA, that's in pretty good shape. I don't wear it very often, but I make no attempt to maintain the brim to brand new. What I normally wear is an expedition hat. 15+ years old, faded, Philmont branded, been in every rainstorm I have been in, crushed in a pack, lanyard replaced many times, doesn't hold its shape, and yet I get far more "compliments" on the hat than anything else. Sometimes one's personality comes through in the hat one wears. My church youth group kids don't "recognize" me without my hat and unless I have it on, they are constantly asking me if I want to join the church. With the hat on, they're my best buddy. Go figure. Yeah, the campaign hat is pricy, but not as pricy as some of the hats I have bought and yet my campaign hat has no personality. Once I get the brim the way I want it, then I should be ok. :^) Ever wonder about the guys in the ratty uniforms but the perfect campaign hats? Or worse yet, when the rain comes, they grab up the rain covers that look like the plastic pants babies used to wear over their diapers, or the shower cap my girlfriend uses. There's gotta be something wrong with that picture. A hat should look a little like it's been around a few hundred campfire and down a few rainy roads before it is actually worn in public. If one has an oval head and the hat is round, then let the brim adjust to your head. Let the hat tell you who it is. "The key to understanding this is knowing that you don't break in the hat, you break in your head." No, the key is to let the hat be the hat and let it surprise you with who it is. Stosh

Okay, more info makes it easier. I would start with the parents and do a general survey among the existing parents to "help bridge the gap" kind of an approach. Just a temporary thing to assist in assimilating the new boys and by helping until the new Webelos boys' parents come on board. This way some of the parents can make a commitment that isn't "forever". People like to know that they can gracefully step down after a certain length of time if they want to. If they wish to commit for another tenure, fine. So often when recruiting adults it often appears to be an ongoing thing that means I have to hang around for 8 years or so. But if they knew that it would be for 1 year and cover only giving rides when needed, they might bite. It also gets them in the door and they might make their commitment a bit more "permanent". One can always have a signup sheet program. The boys have their annual activities planned. If there is need for adults, a sheet is created that indicate when, where, etc. of the activity, what is expected of the adult, and a place to sign up. This is posted once a year on the wall. If no one signs up after a month, the activity is cancelled. The boys themselves will recruit their own parents if the activity is really important to them. It also gets the boy-led program into the adult support recruiting role. Then all the sheets are collected, compiled into a booklet and mailed out to each parent. They know when they've signed up and they also know no one's going to be bugging them throughout the year for extra help. This is a great way to build a support base of cooperation between adults and youth leadership in the unit. The boys identify their needs/activities and the adults work at assisting them, boy-led program in it's purest form. Stosh

During the winter months we did the pin/advancement inside thingy route and when the summer months rolled around, we did the camping, outing, hiking, teambuilding route. It's not an either/or, it's a both/and issue. We met weekly and ran 1 hour prior to the scout meeting in the same building. When there was something neat going on at the troop and they were invited, the Webelos could stay another hour and catch the fun. By the time they crossed over, they merely showed up an hour later for the meetings. Smooth transition! Stosh

Your situtation sounds like mine a year ago. 1) Train your youth to take over as a boy-led operation. No amount of adults will be sufficient to muddle their way through a major growth spurt. The boys will handle it fine, but they need training and prep. You have time to get ready, don't panic. 2) Involve your CC to recruit adults. Tell him what you need and let him do his job. 3) If you are the SM, coordinate the interaction between adults and youth and keep the adult involvement to a bare minimum, assisting the boys only when they request it. 4) Insist on functional adult leadership. Inactives are of no value to a program. Remember most adults do prefer a boy-led program and if one does not get a "sufficient number of adults" to come onboard, one may consider going that route instead. Stosh

You have an oval head in a round hat. In order to get it to fit, the brim will never lay flat. You need a professional hat man to get it to work. If you look at old pictures of scouts you will see the brim dips down in front and back, it's because of the problem you describe and if worn long enough will look just like that. Stosh

How many professional football teams have flag stickers on their helmets? I know Chicago does. So who's going to arrest them? :^) Stosh

Hollywood produces entertainment, not documentaries or educational films. Once one realizes that they may actually enjoy the movie. And it's not just movies. If one reads the early novels of scouting from 1910-1930, one would be totally agast at the political incorrectness, dangerous activity and total disregard to what is acceptable by today's standards. We laugh and wink at the Dangerous Book for Boys, when in fact the adventures of the past were indeed far more adventurous than those of today. And those days weren't that long ago. Yes, I do remember riding to a scout event in the back of a pickup with a bunch of scouts and other gear. Long live the spirit of Pee Wee Harris, Tom Slade, Westy Martin and Roy Blakeley. One can be assured that the Pee Wee of the 1920's is definitely not the cartoon character Pee Wee that's around today. Stosh

Maybe so, but I was just checking my sources to make sure it was correct. The sarcasm isn't necessary. I find it sometimes necessary to check things out rather than just post unsubstantiated information. Stosh

A military veteran may be wrapped in the flag for burial and/or a flag can be buried with a veteran. http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/hgguide.pdf Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Well, in MD then maybe patrols ought to find someplace other than state parks to camp in. Stosh

Leave it up to some government bureaucrat to screw it all up. On the right sleeve with the union to the right to give the appearance of moving forward is NOT on the flag's own right, i.e. to the observer's right. How can it be to the observer's right and the flag's right at the same time? And the super great analogy of a cavalry trooper galloping across the Hollywood screen with the flag streaming back and this proves it's ok to fly the flag backwards. Duh! move the camera over to the other side and everything will be just fine! It is artistic liberty to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy. If one needs some special analogy how about: envision a USS man-of-war under full sail chasing down the enemy to give them a glorious broadside. Which way is the wind blowing to make the sails billow forward and then look at the flag at the back on the boat, which way is it blowing? Backwards? Maybe the Navy men should all wear their flags flowing forward to commemorate the grand tradition of the wooden ships! And it also begs the question, with all the rules and regs being produced by the military, wouldn't it be a little more cost effective just to use the US Flag Code that the civilians use? There are those that think this may already be the case. Stosh

"A bigger problem is one that I've commented on before. Boys really don't want to be Boy Scouts. Most are there because their parents push them, that's why parental involvement is so important." Gotta love the logic. We need more parents to make sure the boys are forced to stay in a program that they don't want to be in in the first place.... Makes perfectly good sense to me. My boys are in the program because they want to be. Yes, I have the pushy parents keeping a couple in there and that's fine, parents make the ultimate decisions for their children. But if they want their children to develop independence and leadership, they will have to step aside or all they will end up with is another parlor scout Eagle. My boys are taught differently and the unit is run differently than adult/parent led. If there is a boy doing QM work and has not been "assigned" the POR and does not have the patch on his sleeve, at the end of 6 months, it will be recorded he has accomplished the requirement. Good leaders don't need a patch on their shirt to indicate they have permission to lead, they lead whether there's a patch or not. If I have an older boy that is teaching leadership and guiding the Troop Guide, gathering resources for the Chaplain Aide, showing the Scribe how all the paperwork fits together, and other miscellaneous jobs, he'll get "credit" for POR ASPL because he's doing the work of assisting the SPL with the leadership of the Troop Officer Corps. Maybe he should get credit for JASM, too. Maybe if he knows the QM is brand new and is really struggling to get things going and this scout is actually doing 85% of the QM job while teaching the new boy, he should get QM credit too. And as this post started out, if there were FEWER adults interfering in this process of leadership, more than just a couple of the natural leaders would get a chance to do some of this actual leadership. 100' between patrols? Naw, just start with 100', no 200' between the boys and the adults. Most boys don't want to be there not because of the program, it's because the adults keep promising them leadership training and opportunity and then never giving it to them. Stosh

Gotta love the logic. Because the code says the military doesn't follow the code, it means they must be following the code. Sorry but that doesn't make much sense in the real world. Stosh