Stosh

Gee, does that mean my ASM's need to be "awarded" their position patches, too? I gave the boy the DC patch and the pack gave him the cords and when he was finished with training, he received the trained patch. These are not awards, they are just markings on the uniform to indicate the boys' POR, nothing more, nothing less. If he fulfills the requirements for the National Award, I would think it would be nice if he is awarded this at a pack meeting because the boy's contribution to this award was done in the pack. Otherwise the boys he worked with would miss out on seeing him presented the award if it was given out at a COH. Stosh

The POR positions are what the troop makes them to be. If wearing the patch and getting advancement credit is all that is necessary, then ALL of the POR's are easy, even SPL. Librarian? If I ask a question about something in the scout handbook (library book) can that person provide the information? After all my library has a reference desk where I can ask real questions. Does the Scribe keep track of all the advancement reports that are handed in, record them and pass them on to the adult responsible for keeping track on digital records? Does the chaplain's aide lead vespers every Friday and Saturday night and have a small devotional on Sunday morning or does he just cop out with Philmont prayer at every meal? Is the Bugler the first up every morning, ready to signal every change of activity that occurs to communicate to the patrols? Can he gather up the troop for an informational meeting, signal everyone in a patrol that their dinner is ready and they should stop what they're doing and get ready to eat, giving a heads up to the Chaplain's Aide that he needs to get ready. There are no "easy" POR's, but there are low/easy expectations about them in some of the troops. As an officer in Civil War reenacting, the most sought after reenactor at every event (and when I get one to show up, use constantly throughout the weekend) is the Bugler. Without a good one, I can just about guarantee being horse by the end of the weekend. I would dearly love to have a functional Bugler for my scout unit!!! Stosh

I'd say we all better throw up our hands in despair and call it quits. I see no hope for being able to afford a free hike in the woods and/or playing fun games in someone's yard. I believe every scouting unit ought to take a serious look about folding up. Alas, if one's life is oriented to the Gospel of the US News, then there's no hope of survival. Chicken Little

The "swastika" is not native American, it is originally Japanese. Stosh

I would think that if the boy actually functions in the POR he should get credit for it, regardless of whether the SM thinks he can handle it or not. If all he wants to do is wear the patch and get credit for advancement, then it really doesn't make any difference whether he holds the office or not. Boys in my troop hold POR as long as they do the job. If they do the job for 6 months they get advancement for it. If not, then they get switched out with a boy that wants to do the job. There are no term of office in the unit. If after a couple of weeks it's obvious the boy isn't going to do the job he's signed on for, then the job is given to someone else on the spot. End of discussion. If a PL has been in office for 3 months and then joins school sports and can't do the job anymore, the job goes to the next person and somewhere down the road after sports season is over, he puts in another 3 months as a POR he gets advancement credit. If one doesn't do the job, they don't get the credit. Stosh

as a point of clarity: A strong teacher, yes, a strong leader, no. Stosh

If I have a boy that needs advancement and doesn't have a POR because the youth leadership doesn't have a position available, or won't get him one, I just assign him a special project. It's all within the SM's scope of operation and it doesn't interfere with the leadership of the troop. I have had a lot of boys doing these special project and never question whether or not they have a POR on their shirt, they just do their job and get their advancement. Need a new trailer? Why can't a boy research the project and make a recommendation? Need special speakers for a number of different programs? Boy can line those up. Need ideas for Eagle projects? A boy can get his ear to the ground and come up with some options. There's a lot of stuff being done by adults that a boy is very capable of doing. If leadership is part of advancement, then maybe some of these special projects responsibilities may be more effective in showing leadership than sitting around counting MB pamphlets as a Troop Librarian, or taking a few pictures here and there as a Troop Historian. Stosh

One has to wonder why a troop of uncommitted boys and a ton of adults wanting it to succeed will ever find it possible to develop leadership. Everyone seems to rely so much on the talents, visions, skills, and charisma of adults that the result of such will guarantee boys that will in essence be followers. If the troop is there entirely for the entertainment of the boys, fine, then a strong leader is necessary to run the show. If the troop is to produce youth leaders, then a strong adult leader isn't necessary. Ever think that with all the leadership, power, vision, charisma in the hands of a few adults, that when they leave, the youth program falls apart? If boys were consistantly being trained up in leadership, then the change of SM's wouldn't even be noticed except for the farewell banquet for him/her. I'm willing to go out on a limb here, but a youth leadership program that doesn't promote youth leadership isn't going to last very long. Stosh Stosh

There's no two people alike. I spend 8 hours a day sitting at a desk looking at a computer screen. For lunch I went out, ate my yogurt, apple and drank a soda while sitting outside on a bench in 20* weather warning for Wisconsin (blowing snow and slippery roads). I watched the deer play in the woods just beyond the pond the bench was sitting next to. After work I went out in the moonlight and cross country skied for a couple of hours before coming home to 3 hours of snow shoveling of sidewalks and driveways. Oh, the parking lot at the forest where I skied, was full and I had to find alternate parking. I'm not the only crazy here. This morning it was -3* when I went off to work. I haven't decided where I'm having lunch today. I may have to eat while walking to keep warm. And for all those who think I'm young and foolish, I'm 58 years-old so that makes me old and foolish. :^) Oh, and by the way, I had to hang my wool long-johns, sweater, snow pants and jacket up because I had perspired enough to soak them through. When it's -20* I can put another coat on, when it's 110* there's only so much one can do. Stosh

This troop has a lot more going for it than the troop I took over a year ago. I had 5 boys, a former SM and his wife on the committee and another former SM who was treasurer. It can be done. It isn't dependant upon the adults, their training, their vision or anything else. It has to do with the boys themselves. If they want the troop to survive it's up to them. Sit them down, explain the situation and if they're going to fold, go out with a bang. Have a great last year. Take your victory lap and at the end of that year when it comes time to fold it up, I bet you'll recharter for another lap. DE's, UC's, CC's, SM's and all the other adult alphabet soup can't do one thing to have the troop suceed. It's for the boys, by the boys. Get them involved and then let them lead. Stosh

No one is saying that one should not give winter camping a try. However, if one put's their ear to the ground on this one it is fairly obvious that they shouldn't try it without some training AND experience! I know a lot of people who drive cars. I know a lot of boys that play football. I know a lot of people who have gone skiing, both downhill and cross-country. There's a lot of people who play golf. And the common denominator? They all were trained before they did it. Can a 14 year old drive a car? Yep. Can boys play football in the backyard? Yep Do people downhill ski without any lessons? Yep Do people play golf without lessons? Yep How many of these things could potentially be dangerous? Then ask oneself if they have the sense to take boys out in a potentially dangerous situation and hang out for the weekend? Nothing in G2SS that says a leader should not be stupid, but then these are the things that keep lawyers in business. There's a few on the forum that say I may be a little fool-hardy and reckless. However, not many have ever said I was stupid. A lot of times when people go looking for trouble, they actually find it. Do I take my boys whitewater canoeing the summer after they cross-over from Webelos. Do I stand in the big rapids with a rescue rope and throw bouy and rescue hook? Yep. In each canoe with the new boys is there an experienced boy with canoeing MB in the back? Yep. Have they ALL passed the swimming test? Yep. Do I take experienced adult kayakers and canoeists along as my backup to help the boys? Yep. Do some of my boys get banged up and bruised? Yep. Have some needed rescuing? Yep. Am I going to do it again next summer? Yep. At 2:00 am when a boy is having trouble with the cold, or is dumped out of a canoe, or any one of a different "situations", this is not the time to start learning how to do it. Was the first time I went winter camping I was in charge? Nope. Was the first time in whitewater canoeing was I ready to rescue anyone? Nope. The only reason I do it now is because of many years of training and experience to back me up. Stosh

I for one wouldn't rely on what the "scouts" at camp staff were doing to provide examples of what to wear. I have one scout who accurately wears a uniform from the 1960's. The COMPLETE uniform is accurate as are all the patches on the shirt, piping on the pockets, and garrison cap. The mix and match "class-a", "class-b", "class-c", "class-d", "class-f" and "no-class" approach to uniforming may be the standard out in the real world, but then the BSA uniform has become such a joke that most boys don't want to wear it. Duh! Ask them if they want to wear modern military uniforms or do they think they're dorky? Ask them if they want to wear a football or baseball uniform or do they think they're dorky? Do we see a pattern here? Stosh

With all the contradictory advice, I hope the initial poster gets some proper training before giving it a try. Winter camping in sub-zero weather without proper training is a really dumb idea, even the military does training first before camping in the snow. Stosh

Yeah, but that's the chance you take...ain't it a rush? It's always a choice, ya wanna go out fighting or go out with a whimper? "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" Admiral David Farragut, Mobile Bay near Fort Gaines, 1864, gave the famous order after seeing his lead ship destroyed by a torpedo (mine). The result was a Union victory over Confederate naval forces. Nobody ever remembers those who give up before they try. :^) Stosh

Okay, here's my take on the situation: This stuff is for the boys, so quit looking backwards. Regardless of why you are being tapped out, accept it as a call for help from the boys who are on the verge of not having someone who cares as much as you do. All the others that said no are really saying the boys aren't all that important enough for their time. Take the job, take the slings and arrows and do it for the boys. Trust them that in the long run they'll appreciate anything and everything you do for them. You forgot the most important quote: 'Forward, the Light Brigade!' Was there a man dismay'd ? Not tho' the soldier knew Some one had blunder'd: Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do & die, Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred." The Charge Of The Light Brigade by Alfred, Lord Tennyson Memorializing Events in the Battle of Balaclava, October 25, 1854 Written 1854 I kinda like Tennyson better than Shakespeare :^) Stosh

Winter camping is a relative term. It indicates a season not a temperature. Obviously winter camping in Florida means something far different than winter camping in Wisconsin. Advice from Northern Wisconsin: (severe winter camping!) 1) Cotton kills, end of discussion. If wool bothers your skin, wear polypropelene liners under the wool, NOT COTTON T-SHIRTS, DUH! The reason cotton is so bad is that it holds perspiration against the skin which WILL FREEZE. Poly and wool wicks the sweat into the outer garment and keeps the skin dry and thus won't have a sheet of ice on it. 2) Foam ground pad is a must, same for plastic sheeting. 3) -20 degree bags might be a good choice. Nothing above a zero bag 4) Line the bag with a wool blanket, not a sheet. If wool bothers you, DO NOT LINE IT WITH A COTTON OR COTTON FLANNEL SHEET! Line it with a non-cotton fleece sheet instead (along with the wool blanket). Do not pile blankets over the sleeping bag, they slide off and they compress the loft of the insulation! 5) Build a snow cave because at -40 degrees it is still above +25 degrees inside the cave. Snow is an excellent insulator. 6) NO FIRES - fires heat up one side of the body and the weather cools off the other. Your body doesn't know whether to heat up or cool down. Walk around, or run to keep warm. Avoid any artificial heat sources, the body cannot make the approriate adjustments and will simply chill down again faster than if it's being heated from within. Warm liquids/food warming from the inside is okay. 7) Change your clothes completely before going to bed. Take a 10 minute brisk walk before changing clothes. If you don't want to freeze your ass off change your underwear, LITERALLY. 8) Have extra liners for your boots, remove them at night, put new dry ones in in the morning. If "wet" liners are left in and freeze, one won't be wearing those boots in the morning. 9) Water bottles in your sleeping bag will cool off the bag, pour out the water and get fresh in the morning. 10) Drink as much water as you would if it was 100 degrees out. Winter air is very dry and will dehydrate the body without anyone realizing it. 11) Eat a lot before going to bed. Sugars will keep you warm the first 2 hours, carbohydrates next 3-5 hours, and proteins for the last 5-8 hours. If you wake up cold its because your internal furnace ran out of the appropriate fuels. Drink warm liquids to warm up from within. Warming up at the fire, sweating a little bit and then running and jumping into a sleeping bag is a really, really stupid idea. 12) Watch for frostbite. Wear a hat and mittens (NOT GLOVES) even at night sleeping! 13) Never stand around. Keep moving, take a hike, eat a lot to replenish the internal furnace. 14) If using stoves and liquid fuel be VERY careful, if that liquid is spilled on the skin it will produce instant frostbite! Propane doesn't evaporate and burn at really cold temperatures. 15) First time out it would be wise to go to a camp that teaches all there is to know about winter camping and provides the equipment to do it. They are out there and if one goes and gets the correct instructions it will avoid a lot of hassles down the road. Stosh

Nope, I'm infantry 100%. Sheldonsmom said she had the cannon. I might bend the rules a little here and there, but that one's beyond anything I can skirt around and keep within G2SS issues. The only large bore issue I have is the .58 cal and .69 cal rifle muskets we carry. I sumetimes use my .72 cal shotgun (10-gauge), but not for reenacting. Stosh

Just remember 50% of the lawyers out there practicing law today graduated in the bottom half of their class. Stosh

In this day and age of divorce for a dime, one can expect a whole lot of legal issues that did not apply in the past. These issues need to be checked out by legal professionals in your particular area. Divorce laws vary from state to state. Custodial parent is the legal guardian, the other parent is not. Leaving the state may be an issue of the courts not the parents, i.e. even the parents cannot leave the state with the child unless both parents agree and sign. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Find out the particulars in your area AND the court orders for each particular divorce, before one gets burned. Stosh Oops, forgot to add - step-parent is not a legal guardian unless they have officially adopted the child. (This message has been edited by jblake47)

Neither my troop nor my crew has a code of conduct. Never felt any need for one. Stosh

I have laid out the troops expectations for the boys to make their own decisions on concerning this issue. #1 - a person is late because there is something else out there that is of a higher priority than scouts. #2 - there is no other option. We have chosen to start our meetings and run them on-time. If this is an issue, so be it. We aren't going to penalize those that are on time by making them wait for those who have other priorities they are taking care of. Stosh

That was my first reaction as well. Is the Methodist Church the CO? If so, do they have insurance to cover their equipment? The equipment does not belong to the troop it belongs to the CO. Stosh

I for one wouldn't want to be "dragging around" a for-real cannon under the auspices of BSA. As infantry, we are not "under the radar" we have spent many years in dialog with National and have everything covered. Basically I was busy enough with Boy Scouts that I didn't need the hassle of starting a crew when the council first asked. I put everything out there in black and white and they sent it off to National, spelling out every aspect of the hobby that fell short of G2SS and other issues related to BSA. I figured that would put an end to the whole idea. However, we have been assured we are far from flying "under the radar". Which of course meant all my excuses to not have to start a reenacting crew went out the window. We as leaders are covered by BSA's liability insurance, 2nd Wisconsin Association's $2M liability insurance and I hold another $1M umbrella liability insurance. If one does it by the book, the hobby is safe and as far as danger is concerned, youth can get more crippling injuries from high school sports than I have heard about national reenacting over the past 10 years. Have I as commander of a unit on the field pulled it off because the situation we found ourselve in as unsafe? Yep, more than once and the last time was this past summer at Gettysburg at a national event. Common sense still is the best insurance of them all. Stosh

Naw.. :^) The uniform is the last thing they get "upset" about. The 36" field officer sword (fixed blade sheath knife on steroids), the 1854 Navy Colt hand gun, the 18" bayonet, the 58 caliber military assault rifle and the wide variety of bowie knives that get carried around seem to draw more raised eyebrows than the uniforms. Hmmm, let's also consider the 40 rounds 65 grains fff blackpowder wrapped up in paper too. Gee, that's almost a half pound of blackpowder. To the casual observer, the hobby looks extremely dangerous, especially to the range masters and others who have been trained one way and we train differently. But in spite of it all, it's not as bad as one observes. Extensive safety is built into the hobby and BSA has recognized that whatever safety, clothing, equipment standards are established by the hobby, it is acceptable to BSA. One of the reasons why it is so popular among the boys is because of the perceived danger of the beast. Stosh

Why don't you make one? They can't be all that hard. 60" wide fabric running front awning to rear ground doubled (10' wide) and then two side panels. A little sewing, a grommet maker and a few 2"X2" poles a little rope and there ya go. Any color you want it to be. Sew in a few ties and you can even close it up in bad weather. I bet you can put one together for under $40. Stosh