Stosh

I've been sitting back and just listening to the discussion but I'll put in my perspective based on what I've seen. #1 - The original intent/goal of the unit was properly clarified and accepted by everyone. #2 - Over the years those goals were replaced. It is very easy for a charismatic adult to quickly turn a unit from boy to adult led. Unfortunately no one challenged the change at the time it happened. #3 - One can't fight "city hall". Once the adults became entrenched, it's going to stay that way unless THEY change. This will probably never happen given the description of the situation. #4 - Obviously no youth leadership is going to be encouraged because the risk will always be there that they will challenge the adults and they'll never let that happen. The options that are available: #1 - Venture Patrol independent of the adult leadership of the troop. The 6 boys remain with the troop but run their patrol exclusive of the program of the troop. They can cooperate with other youth members, but not the adults. One adult of their choosing will be an advisor for the patrol by his/her only task will be to keep the other adults from interferring. I don't see this as a viable option, but it is still an option. #2 - Start a Venturing Crew of the older boys, but then other scouts in the area will not be able to hook up with the Crew for three years. This "gap" of adult-led means the boys coming in are all going to be seriously lacking in leadership skills and will probably rely a lot on recruiting from within troops in the area to stay viable. This will not set one in good graces with the local troops and SM's. #3 - Start another Troop. Go back to the original intent/goal that was important to the boys originally and have them run the program and select a SM that will guarantee a boy-led program. If the SM must change, have the boys select his/her replacement. Nothing screws over a youth organization faster than adults. I have run into it in every youth group I have worked with. Somehow every parent feels that because it's MY kid, I can run the program in a way that best suits MY kid. Just ask any coach that benches someone's precious budding sports star. Sports, church, BSA, etc. they're all the same, and the loudest, most obnoxious parents are the one's that don't give up until they get their way. It's almost an obsession on their part to have to win or their child will somehow be permanently harmed for the rest of his life. Every organization goes through conflict cycles and once the fighting gets to a certain level, there is nothing one can do to resolve the conflict. Just part one's way and do their own thing. From the original request of the thread, I have no idea which side of the fence the poster is on. It makes no difference. Each party has to decide what's best, and from what I can see in this situation, the boys are going to be the last ones to get a chance to even offer up some input, let alone make any decisions about THEIR program. As a SM of a boy-led program, there isn't a meeting, outing, or event that goes by that I don't have to rein in some adult somewhere that's trying to interfere. Right now I have an adult that convinced the boys that it would be good for the boys to do Pioneering Merit Badge during the troop meetings for the next 5-6 weeks. I had it planned out to offer TLT to the boys, but adults can do a lot to make sure certain things happen the way they wish them to. After a brief conversation with the SPL, unless he's prepared to teach it, I won't be offering TLT again until next fall when the NSP boys coming in next month are ready for it. He's got a tough decision to make now and I'm waiting to hear how things turn out. Stosh

BSA policy states what is and what is not forbidden to wear with the uniform. I have never found anywhere that DC Award is forbidden with the adult uniform. I do know that the first class pin is forbidden with the campaign hat, and other specific instances where specific items are explicitly stated one way or another. I have never found any place where it says the cords cannot be worn as an adult. Stosh

If I am not mistaken, I believe the Flag Code states that one does not have to be a veteran to have a flag pall on the casket. I would think that a person who may have dedicated his entire life to something like Boy Scouts and was 4-F during the Vetnam War would be a good candidate for a flag draped casket attended to by a cadre of Eagle scouts. Stosh

This is nothing new. I used to set up the old Exploring Posts 35 years ago and a few of those Posts were all female. Stosh

My Venturing Crew boys use the Civil War dog tents. 2 halves buttoned together, each boy carrying half, one split pole and 4 stakes. No ends, no floor, but with a poncho, I've held some pretty good storms at bay over the years. Stosh

Hmmmm, does one hold the match in their mouth before or after they put the earwax on it? If it's after, then there should be some very strong incentive to keep it off the tongue. Stosh

I am not a veteran, but I have studied them for years and there's always one thing that seems to set them apart from any other group and that is that bond that holds commrades-in-arms together. I have one instance of a GAR (Grand Army of the Republic) veterans met at the courthouse at 9:00 am for a 12:00 funeral and the luncheon for them was served at 4:00 pm. The date of the funeral would have put the gentlemen in their 70's and 80's. I couldn't figure out why the times were so spread out over the course of the day, but then after reading the obit in the papers, they had walked from downtown out to the rural cemetery (6 miles out) for internment and honors before walking back to the courthouse for the luncheon. I have often wondered how far anyone would walk for my funeral.... One of the men from the reenacting group that sponsors our Venturing Crew goes around to all the cemeteries in the county that had at least one veteran in it, to play taps on Memorial Day weekend. I say weekend because it takes him 2.5 days to do so. He does take 7 hours out of Memorial Day to do honors at 4 cemeteries and march in the parade. A veteran does not make a sacrifice to our country, they ARE a sacrifice for our country. There is nothing we can do to repay that debt. Stosh

Ok, ok, ok, If you're over 50, drink coffee, and have a jammed zipper on both doors of the tent facing anyway but up, and there's no ziplock bag with a Huggie in it, what next? (I'm never going camping again!) Stosh

Oh man! Now I've got to thinking does one sleep their head towards the door or their feet, or does one lay sideways? Stosh

Why not? Stosh

Age and treachery will win out over youth and exhuberance anyday!

If both doors are on the same side of the time, there shouldn't be a problem. If they are on opposite sides, then one needs to ask themselves why they would buy such a dilema in the first place. If one can't figure out which way the door faces with one door, they have only doubled their problem with two doors. Do the doors have windows? If they do, then I'll guarantee one is going to never sleep in such a tent. They'll lay awake all night long wondering if they are doing it right. Stosh

I just figured the outside of the door ought to face outward and the inside of the door face inward. This works best if the zipper has only one tab. Otherwise if the zipper had the double tab, then it makes no difference. If one has an older tent then the door ties should be on the outside unless its raining then they go on the inside, but in either case the doors face out if your in and in if your out. Just make sure that the windows all face outward as well so as to take in the best scenery. If you have curtains on the windows then they can face inward, but they have to be closed to keep people from peeking in so then what's the point of having a window. I find that no matter which way the door faces, the floor should be on the bottom. :^) Stosh

A knot is not needed, just wear the cords. That's why it is red/white/blue to distinguish it from the working cords. Stosh

I have often wondered what pioneers and Indians did before the invention of electric/gas clothes dryers. I have used candle stubs for years and they work just fine. If the boys learn to build a fire correctly, firestarters are pretty much a waste of time. Stosh

As a Webelos leader I planned out the entire year. I met once a week for an hour and we covered, twice, all Webelos pins and awards during Webelos I and then just and went and had fun outings in Webelos II. My boys actually got to wear their pins and AOL on the Webelos uniforms as Webelos scouts, not just their Boy Scout uniform. I designed the program to have the fun outdoor stuff in the mild seasons and the "indoor" stuff in the worst of winter weather time. It worked out nicely and all the boys got their advancement without a big hassle and the second year of "putting together what they learned" on different outings, was really fun. They got to try out some of the boy scout stuff like planning their outings, planning their menus, etc. for the outing. Over half the boys that were part of that program all went on to Eagle as Boy Scouts because they were ready and excited about crossing over at the end of Webelos. Stosh

The transition? Interesting question because 95% of the transition is not in the program, it's in the understanding of the concepts of the program. We have WB people run off, get this terrific training in the process of self-led, patrol-method, and then run home and immediately revert back to "the way we've always done it." Then there's the fired up young man that heads off to NYLT gets this terrific training in the boy-led, patrol-method process, and then runs home and immediately reverts back because, "We've never done it that way before." I found that the easiest way to make the transition is to sit down with the boys, openly discuss the concepts of boy-led, patrol-method, and give the reins to the boys to figure out the rules to the game. I make the rules in my troop very simple. 1) Safety first, 2) Look and act like a Scout, and 3) Have fun. The adults get only two rules: "1) If a boy can do it, let him and 2) Let him figure it out on his own." With that being laid out for the boys, the first thing one is going to get is the traditional deer in the headlights look. You expect US to do everything? Yep! Need help? Just ask. Then the game begins. Boys: "If we stand around long enough, an adult will step in and take over." "If we don't take it seriously and major deadlines are being missed, then an adult will step in and take it over." "If (fill in the blank) then an adult will step in and take over." To which the adults say: "Bummer!" Until the program becomes real and ownership is 100% guaranteed to stay in the boys' hands, they are not going to believe any adult would allow a real boy-led, patrol-method program to exist. They will constantly seek "guidance" to which their SM will respond, "Well, what do you think is the best course of action?" If he is really stymied, then a "Well, if it was me, I would consider a couple of options," and then give the boy some options for him to make the decision. Nurture THEIR leadership, not one's own. Stosh

Hmmm, I thought it was Real WoodBadge and WoodBadge for the New Guys. It's kinda like Eagles that do projects and the pre-1965 Eagles that implied weren't as good because they didn't do projects. I don't begrudge WB to anyone, but it sure would be nice if people would understand that WB and 30 years in the Scouting Program and WB and 2 years in the Scouting Program, where a quality program is not dependent on which WB it is. Stosh

... and don't forget that the on-line training is only the fast-start program, it is NOT the full DC training program. It will get your DC's foot in the door, but it will not give him the full training, any more than the fast-start videos will give the full essentials training. I have used the new program and it's really not too bad. My boys seemed to like it and quietly sat through 2 1-your sessions. Stosh

If the boy goes out for a long term commitment, if he has POR he steps down and someone else takes the position. The boy's choice. Either stay and fulfill the POR or do something else and let others function in leadership. If it's a one-time outing, it's too bad the boy has to miss or the parents have to bring the boy later, but again, it's the boy's choice. We all have to face choices in life. If I'm double booked, one activity has to take president over the other. A scout is trustworthy. If he can't be trusted to be there and fulfill his obligations to the troop.... well? If a boy skips school his grades will slip and eventually fail. Same rules apply to scouting. If the patrol members can't rely on a member to be there, they have the right to find someone else to fill out their ranks. Stosh

Priorities, plain and simple. If it's ok to sit and warm the bench in sports, being an active member of the patrol is ok too. If one wants to be SPL then they can't be star quarterback at the same time. It's part of life, make your choices and live with them. Only a rare few excel in multiple venues because of the conflicts. Stosh

:^) It isn't theory. Cub Packs do it all the time. I came from a Cub pack of 135 members, 12 dens. Take that structure and pare down the "dens" to 6-8 boys and put a boy DL in place of the adult (boy-led, of course) and then replace the CM with SPL and the Pack Committee with the troop officers and all the adults are replace by boy-led leaders. It's not theory, BSA does it all the time. Stosh

If I were a betting man, I'd put everything I own on the line and say, my boys would not have participated in such a fiasco. They will not combine patrols even within the troop. I have had 2-3 boys participate in the camporee competitions against 8-12 boy patrols, contrived by some SM from another troop. They don't do as well, but they fully understand the patrol method, inside and out and don't need to prove anything to anyone except themselves. I have had two boys in one patrol hanging on now for 6 months waiting to replenish their numbers with the webelos cross overs coming up next month. They have also tried to recruit independent of feeder packs and have now just picked up a third member. They had a few chances to "merge" into another patrol and repeatedly refused. It takes time to build esprit-de-corps in a patrol and this Klondike thingy is exactly why the boys question the NLYT and TLT programs. If my boys were to have attended this Klondike, they would find it difficult to return to another district event and would surely put one more nail into an almost completed coffin for NYLT in my troop. Stosh

Beavah, One of the problems with the numbers games comes in the fact that at most an adult can kinda control about 30-35 boys on his own. However, if he turns over the control to the boys and they are structured into patrols, then he doesn't have to keep an eye on everyone, only the few that are supporting the patrols. This means the boys lead the boys and the adults support only a handful of the key boys. Then the numbers can expand. If structured with an 8 boy patrol, then no leader of any sort, boy or adult need worry about more than 8 other people. That number is very easy to handle even by the most novice of fledgling boy leaders. If a unit has 8 patrols of 8 boys that means that the SPL watches over his 8 PL's and the PL's their patrols, one has 65 boys and no one watches over more than 7-8 others. One doesn't even have to add an interferring adult to see this happening. Usually what happens is an SPL tries to run the whole troop/show and if an adult can't lead 25-30 boys, what makes one think a less experienced SPL can? The SPL is the PL of the PL's. When he starts interfering in the affairs of the individual patrols, why have PL's???? Once the interferring SPL strips the PL's of their leadership responsiblities, then they have slipped into the Boy-Led, Troop Method. When the SPL get's overwhelmed, the SM steps in and now one has the traditional Adult-Led, Troop-Method program we see so often. If everyone stays with the patrol-method, there can be multiple ASPL's tending to 8 PL's and with two ASPL's one can have 130 boys and not even address the issue of needed Troop Officers (i.e. scribe, TG, etc.) The secret to a boy-led program is to: let the boys lead. :^) Stosh

Knowing and putting into practice are two different things as is Knowing and inspiring boys with that knowledge, too. Stosh