Stosh

It doesn't work well for me, but it does work well for the boys. I'll have to have the boys read the 1938 SM handbook. It may not be current protocol, but I wonder if this might be why so many of the current programs that are taught boy-led, patrol-method are really not. I guess if a new boy is entering into a boy-led unit that the first contact is by the one who is really running the show. That's a message my boys want to show the new boys from the git-go. If one goes back far enough one will find that members of patrols were recruited directly by the members of the patrols, and yes this occured prior to the Cub program. With no Cub program, it would have been difficult to come up with a cross-over ceremony. While much of the early literature of BSA are no longer "official" they do give great insight into how the system was organized and how the boys functioned originally. It is definitely not what's happening today. I guess if I was joining and an adult was the first to greet me to welcome me into the troop, that this process directly relates to boy-led, patrol-method wouldn't be obvious to the casual observer, including an 11 year old boy. Ceremonies and pagentry are to convey messages through actions and activities. My boys don't use the resource ceremonies because that's not the message they wish to give. Stosh

I got mine in the mail. No ceremony Stosh

Yep, we do the same thing and it was the 11-12 year olds that came up with that idea with our boys. Kinda makes ya think that the boys if left alone can do a great job on their own. After all who knows best how it feels for the new boys at that point in their scouting journey! This year the boys took it one step further and "recruited" the cross-over boys into their patrol, that when the time came for the new boys to decide where they wanted to go, they would choose the patrol that did the best job of recruiting/convincing them that their patrol was the best for them. That way every boy walks away thinking he made the best decision for the patrol that wanted him the most. Win-win for all. Stosh

If anyone ever had any idea how destructive adult led can be, this has to be a classic example and I'm betting it goes on all over the country. Ever wonder why boys quit? I don't! I'm sure that any SM worth his salt will see a major reflection of how he/she destroys boy led, just look at this post. First of all, I have no advice for this young boy except to sit back, keep your mouth shut, and do as you are told because this troop is in no way reflective of any BSA program being taught, but every indication of how traditional adult led program have turned off excellent scouts from continuing in the program. I would suggest talking to the CC and if that goes nowhere, then enlist the support of the CO and/or unit commissioner. There is no reason any boy has to put up with this from any adult. As a last resort, start a patrol of like minded mature boys and pool your leadership resources into a "regular" patrol that does venture patrol activities. If it's just a name thingy, then call yourself a regular patrol, plan your own activities, and basically, according to BSA rules and regulations avoid the adults and run your own program. If this is unacceptable to your SM then I have nothing else to offer except my condolences. Stick it out for your Eagle and make a promise to yourself, that when you are old enough to be a SM you NEVER do to another boy that which is being done to you. I left scouts early for many of the same reasons that are expressed here and I have made it a mission to be the SM that my SM wasn't. I hope you will eventually come to understand the importance of scouting and the development of leadership and character that you would like to have present in your situation but are unable to accomplish. When you are SM make sure your boys have the opportunity you didn't. By the way, this is why I changed troops and am now a SM in a boy-led, patrol-method unit. As an ASM I could no longer continue seeing boys like this miss out on what scouting has to offer. Stosh

I have a list at home that has the ones I have and know about. I'll post those later this evening when I get access to it. Stosh Here's a few of them, I know of a few more such as "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" by J. Verne and "Ben Hur" There might be a couple more, but not many. I'm thinking there might only be about 75 titles. Elliott Gray, Jr.: A Chronicle of School Life -- by Colton Maynard. 1911, Grosset & Dunlap. Baby Elton, Quarterback -- by Leslie W. Quirk. 1913, Grosset & Dunlap. Tommy Remington's Battle -- by Burton Egbert Stevenson. 1902, Grosset & Dunlap. Treasure Island -- by Robert Louis Stevenson. 1913, Grosset & Dunlap. The Boy's Book of New Inventions -- by Harry E. Maule. 1914, Grosset & Dunlap. The Official Handbook for Boys -- by Boy Scouts of America. 1914 Rev. Ed., Grosset & Dunlap. Cattle Ranch to College; or, The True Tale of a Boy's Adventures in the Far West -- by Russell Doubleday. 1899, 1922, Grosset & Dunlap. The Ranche on the Oxhide; A Story of Boys' and Girls' Life on the Frontier -- by Henry Inman. Illustrated by Charles Bradford Hudson. 1913, Grosset & Dunlap. Adventures in Beaver Stream Camp; or, Lost in the Northern Wilds -- by A. Radclyffe Dugmore. Illustrated by Philip R. Goodwin. 1918, Grosset & Dunlap. Pete, Cow-Puncher; or, A Story of the Texas Plains -- by Joseph Bushnell Ames. Illustrated by Victor Perard. 1920, Grosset & Dunlap. A Midshipman in the Pacific, His Adventures on Whaler, Trader and Frigate -- by Cyrus Townshend Brady. Illustrated by G.A. Williams. 1904, Grosset & Dunlap. Bartley, Freshman Pitcher -- by Willian Heyliger. 1911, Grosset & Dunlap. Tom Paulding; or, The Story of a Search for Buried Treasure in the Streets of New York -- by Brander Matthews. 1892, Grosset & Dunlap. Yankee Ships and Yankee Sailors: Tales of 1812 -- By James Barnes. Illustrated by Carlton T. Chapman and R.F. Zogbaum. 1897, 1914, Grosset & Dunlap. The Quest of the Fish-Dog Skin -- by James Willard Schults. Illustrated by George Varian. 1913, Grosset & Dunlap. Animal Heroes -- by Ernest Thompson Seton. 1901, 1905, Grosset & Dunlap (originally published by Scribner's). The Wrecking Master -- by Ralph Delahaye Paine. Illustrated by George Varian. 1911, Grosset & Dunlap. For the Honor of the School; or, A Story of School Life and Interscholastic Sport -- by Ralph Henry Barbour. Illustrated by C.M. Relyea. 1900, Grosset & Dunlap. Brown Wolf and Other Jack London Stories -- by Jack London. 1920, Grosset & Dunlap. Scouting with General Funston -- by Everett Tomlinson. Illustrated by J.E. Allen. 1917, Grosset & Dunlap. Scouting with Kit Carson -- by Everett T. Tomlinson. Illustrated by John Frost. 1916, Grosset & Dunlap. The Cruise of the Dazzler -- by Jack London -- 1902, Grosset & Dunlap. Tom Strong, Washington's Scout; or, A Story of Patriotism -- by Alfred Bishop Mason. 1911, Grosset & Dunlap. Pitching in a Pinch; or, Baseball from the Inside -- by Christie Matthewson. 1912, Grosset & Dunlap. The Last of the Mohicans -- by James Fenimore Cooper. Illustrated by E. Boyd Smith. 1910, Grosset & Dunlap. To The Land of Caribou; or, The Adventures of Four Classmates on a Cruise to Labrador -- by Paul G. Tomlinson. 1914, Grosset & Dunlap. A Gunner Aboard the Yankee -- by Russell Doubleday. 1917, Grosset & Dunlap. Scouting with Daniel Boone -- by Everett T. Tomlinson. Illustrated by Norman Rockwell. 1914, Grosset & Dunlap. College Years -- by Ralph Delahaye Paine. Illustrated by Worth Brehm. 1909, Grosset & Dunlap. The Cruise of the Cachalot Round the World After Sperm Whales -- by Frank Thomas Bullen. 1923, Grosset & Dunlap. Tecumseh's Young Braves; or, A Story of the Civil War -- by Everret T. Tomlinson. 1896, Grosset & Dunlap. Boat Building and Boating -- by Daniel Carter Beard. 1911, Grosset & Dunlap. Wells Brothers; or, The Young Cattle Kings -- by Andy Adams. 1911, Grosset & Dunlap. The Half-Back or, A Story of School, Football and Golf -- by Ralph Henry Barbour. Illustrated by B. West Clinedinst. 1899, Grosset & Dunlap. Cab and Caboose; or, The Story of a Railroad Boy -- by Kirk Monroe. 1892, Grosset & Dunlap. The Boy Scouts of Black Eagle Patrol -- by Leslie W. Quirk. Illustrated by William Kirkpatrick. 1915, Grosset & Dunlap. Don Strong of the Wolf Patrol -- by William Heyliger. Illustrated by Norman Rockwell. 1916, Grosset & Dunlap. Don Strong, Patrol Leader -- by William Heyliger. Illustrated by Walt Londerback. 1918, Grosset & Dunlap. 3 - Along the Mohawk Trail; or, Boy Scouts on Lake Champlain -- by Percy Keese Fitzhugh. Illustrated by Remington Schuyler. 1912, Grosset & Dunlap. 8 - The Boy Scouts of Bob's Hill -- by Charles Pierce Burton. Illustrated by Gordon Grant. 1912, Grosset & Dunlap. 15 - Danny Fists -- by Walter Chauncey Camp. 1913, Grosset & Dunlap. 24 - The Horsemen of the Plains: A Story of the Great Cheyenne War -- by Joseph A. Altsheler. Illustrated by Charles Livingston Bull. 1910, 1913, Grosset & Dunlap. 42 - Under Boy Scout Colors -- by Joseph Bushnel Ames. Illustrated by Walt Louderback. 1916, Grosset & Dunlap. 43 - Ungava Bob; or, A Winter's Tale -- by Dillon Wallace. Illustrated by Samuel M. Palmer. 1907, Grosset & Dunlap. 44 - Williams of West Point -- by Hugh S. Johnson. 1908, Grosset & Dunlap. 45 - The Wolf Hunters; or, A Story of the Buffalo Plains -- by George Bird Grinnell, edited and arranged from the manuscript account of Robert M. Peck. 1914, Grosset & Dunlap. 46 - Be Prepared; or, The Boy Scouts in Florida -- by A.W. Dimock. 1912, Grosset & Dunlap. 48 - Billy Topsail, M.D.; or, A Tale of Adventure with Doctor Luke of the Labrador -- by Norman Duncan. 1916, Grosset & Dunlap. 58 - Jeb Hutton, the Story of a Georgia Boy -- by James B. Connolly. Illustrated by M.J. Burns. 1902, Grosset & Dunlap. 59 - Lone Bull's Mistake, A Lodge Pole Chief Story -- by James Willard Schultz. Illustrated by George Varian. 1918, Grosset & Dunlap. 64 - Redney McGaw, A Story of the Big Show and the Cheerful Spirit -- by Arthur E. McFarlane. Illustrated by Arthur William Brown. 1909, Grosset & Dunlap. 66 - Tecumseh's Young Braves, A Story of the Creek War -- by Everett Tomlinson. Illustrated by A. Burnham Shute. 1896, Grosset & Dunlap. (This message has been edited by jblake47)

The Myers Flag neckers are of course square, but the embroidered troop neckers are triangular. We stuck with the triangular neckers for the troop because we can get twice as many out of a piece of cloth. The patrol neckers are what the boys want, that could be either way. If we make them triangular, we can still do the first aid thingy using the necker to duplicate the triangular bandage concept. Stosh

There are about 60-70 titles that were approved by BSA for quality literature for boys by Matthews, Scout Librarian. These books are of about 3 different types. They all fall under the category of "Every Boys Library". There is another series of non-BSA books that use "Every Boys Library" as well so you need to be careful. One type has BSA on the title page indicating it is authorized by them. Another type has a BSA logo embossed on the binding of the book The third type (most common) has a BSA logo on the binding and a nice large logo on the cover. These books can be gotten in a variety of different conditions off the internet through E-Bay, Craigslist, etc. I have been collecting them for years and have all the common ones, but know of about 10 titles that are more difficult to find or expensive to purchase. The books were of different interests. Some were sports related, "Pitching in a Pinch", Some were scout related "Along the Mohawk Trail" (The book that inspired the likes of Tom Slade Series, Pee Wee Harris Series, Westy Martin Series, Roy Blakeley Series and the Buddy Boy Series. These were penned by Percy Keese Fitzhugh for the BSA. Pee Wee, Westy and Roy all remain part of the Boy's Life tradition in scouting. Other books "Boy Scout Handbook" were great hands-on books, and "Don Strong of the Wolf Patrol" were great to get an idea of how scouting worked 100 years ago. Then there were the adventure books like "Call of the Wild", etc. Some were semi-biographic, "Scouting with Kit Carson". A lot of seafaring adventures like the "Cruise of the Dazzler" and "Three Years Behind the Gun". On E-Bay these books generally run for about $25-$35 each without dust covers. Books like "Ben Hur" will run you a couple of hundreds of dollars. Just look at it as pre-video games. 8^D Tom Slade series (Fitzhugh) is about a boy from a bad part of town, getting the scouting bug, turning into a good kid, going off to serve in WWI and then returning and becoming a SM and finally camp director. Pee Harris series is about the "super scout" Pee Wee and his deductive skills he's learned where he eventually grows up to be a private detective as an adult. He's a member of the Raven Patrol. Westy Martin takes his scouting skills and heads west for great adventures as a young adult. Roy Blakeley of the Silver Fox Patrol always plays on the fun side of scouting and all the adventures that go along with that. Roy's series gives a little insight into the lives of the other boys while they were yet in the scouting program, early in their scouting career. Mark Gilmore is a scout that gets into aviation. (3 book series) These books tended to be great birthday and Christmas gifts for the boys during their scout years. The Fitzhugh series books run anywhere from $5-$15 depending on their condition, but some of the books will run over $100 for the "last one in the series" that aren't as common as the first ones. I felt I got a super deal getting Tom Slades last book (Parachute Jumper) for $75. Stosh

All my boys have dark burgundy, custom troop neckers. I also encourage (much to the chagrin of BSA policy) that the patrols have their own neckers. This makes it easy to see that everyone is supposed to be in the right spots at any time. My troop officers wear a Myers Flag necker and can be spotted by any of my scouts if they need to find senior scouts. I wear my WB necker or a green necktie along with a unique expedition hat so my boys know where I am in a crowd. The troop wears the troop necker for all flags, and troop activities, but switch over to patrol neckers when functioning in camp. And yes, full uniform with necker is expected at all times at any scout activity. Adults lead by example. I have WB necker, and troop necker along with my green tie for more formal/dress occasions. Because our neckers are custom made, I purchase the material, cut and hem and then send them off for embroidery work. This way I can make larger sizes for those who need them longer. Stosh

:^D I'm not saying the SM stays home! My boys prefer to be the hands-on contact with the process. When the Webelos cross over, their first contact should be with the boys whom they have visited and had an outing with prior to the ceremony. If a PL has expressed a specific interest in them joining in with their patrol/group, shouldn't it be the PL be the one to meet them first as they step off the bridge? Shouldn't the patrol be there to greet them and shake their hands first? These are the buddies he's going to be looking to for assistance his first year of orientation. I have often wondered if I were a Webelos boy to cross over, meet the SM first and then be assigned a grouping of people I know little or othing about to help me. It's a little like showing up at school after one's parents moved to town and life is what's handed to you. I would think that a little on the part of the group to welcome me would be a good thing. Maybe this PL and his patrol showed up at my Webelos meeting and introduced himself to me on my turf. Then when I went to visit, he had a spot for me to sit and something to show me about how the patrol works on his turf. Then when I go on an activity, he's there to show me the ropes about how this Scouting stuff really works. Now when it's time to cross over to a whole new world/program, there's someone on the other side of the bridge that's waiting just for me and has a place for me to be when I get there. When the SM asks me at the first meeting after the cross-over which patrol I want to join, it's an easy choice to make. All the Cub stuff might be totally different than Scouting, but someone took the time to help me make the cross-over and understand what's different. If I have a question, who do I turn to? ...my new PL of course. As SM, I'm there to encourage and assist in this boy-led process, not do it for them. Never do anything a boy can do. Handing out neckers and books or welcoming new boys is not the SM's job. Someday, when the boy-led program catches on completely, then and only then will the boys quit asking me what to do and begin to direct their questions to their PL's without having to be reminded. If the PL's have a question, they address it to their SPL. If he has a question, he talks to the SM. The boys should always have first chance at leadership and the decisions that go along with that before an adult steps in and takes over. Stosh

If the sole purpose of the NSP is to race everyone through T-2-1 rank advancement, it kinda makes one wonder about the scout that joins for reasons other than Eagle, like maybe hanging out with his friends and having fun. I have always had a problem with the idea that personal advancement takes precident over leadership, teamwork, and commradarie. I guess I don't see the patrol method as a means of establishing a pecking order amongst the boys. In the groups I have worked with over the years, friendships play a more important role in group dynamics than do political and/or business structures of who's in and whose out. If the logic holds true, do the boys that either don't want to advance quickly and/or can't advance because of special needs end up in the NSP for 2-3 years? Just wondering. Stosh

Buffalo, I guess my first question for the boys would be: "What do you want to do?" I would address that first to the 8 Webelos crossovers. Do they want a NSP? Do they feel they would be better served by splitting up an joining in with the older boys? Once that issue is addressed then there may or may not be anything more to decide. If the 8 boys wish to form their own NSP, then I would suggest, and yes, it's only a suggestion to the boys, that they might want to consider having an older boy as a TG to help them get started. If they think that would be ok, then they need to interview the older boys to figure out who they would like to have as a TG. Once they have established that, the TG can assist them in organizing their patrol into it's leadership structure. I like the old method of everyone has a job: PL, ASPL, Grubmaster, Quartermaster, Instructor, etc. But maybe just start with the PL and let a couple of the boys try out the position while the TG actually leads until they settle on a PL. Other leadership can be encouraged after the patrol starts to gel together and they begin to understand the dynamics of the patrol method. If on the other hand the boys coming in feel they would rather join up with the older boys, then they need to figure out how they are going to distribute themselves. Keep it in mind once they figure out that the strong PL patrol is the prime choice, it's going to be rough on the new Webelos to get "stuck" with the leaderless patrol. But when all is said and done, it is the boy's choice. I'm thinking that the 8 boys may wish to stick together and have their own patrol. As far as longevity is concerned, the dynamics can change as the boys determine it. They might last a month before they realize that this was a dumb idea and then they can change to something else. They may, for example, mix and then decide it would be better to have stayed together. They can make that call as they see fit. After all, each time they make choices, fail and rechoose, they are developing observation, leadership and decisiveness skills. This should be encouraged. After all the introduction of 8 new boys into the troop is by nature a disruption to the existing program, why would anyone think it's going to go smoothly the first couple of months? Who knows, maybe the NSP coming in and showing strong leadership and teamwork, may inspire the leadlerless patrol to work it out for themselves. My boys have decided that patrols less than 6 would be counter productive to the program and would have taken the strongly led patrol and united themselves with the leadersless patrol. That way the influence of the stronger boys would be directly applied to the other boys. If this does not happen, eventually the "bad apples" patrol is going to kinda get left hanging in the wind while the others progress and prosper. I for one would find it quite interesting to know why a unit would have had 2-4 man patrols rather than just a single patrol. It kinda seems like there's something going on that is promoting POR's with no functionality, i.e. PL and SPL and one patrol? Who's really running the patrol? When all is said and done, the SM and SPL need to constantly remind themselves that until the boys take ownership of their patrol and know they are okay in determining it's success and/or failure, they are going to just sit around and wait for someone else to take the reins of leadership and they'll just follow along, probably not a good lesson in leadership to start out their experience in a boy-led program. Stosh >>>> I wasn't going to waste my time responding to this, but I've got some time to waste so I will. 8^D You make this up as you go along so you can justify how you direct your scouts, don't you?. >>> No, my boys make this up as they go along. As a matter of fact more often than not, my boys are angry at me when I don't make suggestions and expect them to creatively problem solve, make a decision and then live with it. Its a pride thing isn't it. >>> Yes, and my boys esprit-de-corps and morale is at an all-time high. They have accomplished some things that I would have expected from boys 1-2 years older than them. The friendly rivalry between patrols is now beginning to develop into some competition between patrols, especially in terms of recruiting for the new Webelos scouts preparing to cross over next month. Yes I guess we all wrestle with the devil now and then. >>> As a former pastor, I can assure you that we all do that most of the time. Can I make a guess here, you weren't a boy scout as a youth, were you? >>> You can guess all you wish, but you're going to need a second guess. I was in both Cub and Boy Scouting. Sorry for the disappointment. I was also Civil Air Patrol, and numerous extra-curricula programs throughout school, especially in the area of music. My youth work credentials include many years of working with church youth groups, BSA in which I have the fancy schmancy knots for work in the Cub Scout, Boy Scout and Venturing programs. Old guy WB... I have been credited with starting from scratch 43 different Explorer Posts and 1 Venturing Crew of which I have been the Advisor for for about 10 years. I have also had multiple years of working with under-priviledge youth as well as at-risk youth. Basically I have had about 40 years of working with youth. If that's an ego thingy, then I'm guilty. If it's a matter of pride, then from the results of many of my youth and how they turned their lives around, then I'm guilty of that too. Oh, and my latest? Adult leader for 2010 Jamboree. Somebody likes what I'm doing, and I've always assumed that I can't please everyone, but I'm going to focus on those that come to me for help. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)(This message has been edited by jblake47)

In an adult-led program, mixing and matching of patrols may be the traditional course of action, but when it's boy-led and they are making the decisions as to patrol membership, that is not possible. The mixing of anything by an adult basically destroys any patrol unity that has been developed and shifts the group dynamics in way that adversely affects the leadership of the group. For example, two NSP's merging into one. Half the boys had been working diligently on the commradarie of their patrol and now mixed together with boys that the day before they had been competing against. It would be an us and them issue for some time. There would be those that have and those that don't have rank. A new pecking order would develop and the newer boys would be relegated from equal status to second class. Leadership development would cease until the second year when they would arbitrarily be mixed in with the new boys and they could "run the show" as it has been described. Nope, don't see it as a viable option and neither do my boys. THEY have decided it would be best to "groom" a new scout through the recruiting process to get ready to join THEIR patrol. THEY would select the boy, THEY would determine how well he would fit into THEIR program in the patrol. If it's a good match, according to THEM, then the new scout would select THEIR patrol when he crossed over into scouting. The beauty of the process is that the boys can never find resentment with the adults as to who they get "stuck" with in their patrol. When they control the process then they live with the results of their decisions. I didn't see much of the new boys being all that worried about the older boy leadership in a patrol that they selected to join. There is a bit of a gap in the NSP as the TG gets them organized and they prepare to determine/select their leadership. At the guidance of the TG this process is not rushed, but it's the TG's responsibility to make sure the boys don't attach themselves to him as their leader, but determine leadership amonst themselves. Like adult leadership, the TG accepts the responsibility to support and assist the NSP, but not lead it. To assume that boys under 14 should not be "burdened" with leadership responsibilities because they will "burn out" is not an option in a program that is supposed to be teaching leadership. The overwhelming stress of leadership that is often dumped on boys is usually a directive from the adults to do a task that overwhelms them. This occurs when the boy is not leading but merely doing what they are told by adults (You're the SPL now and you run the troop!). The structure the boys use in the troop I'm involved with, first assumes that the responsibility of any job only involves a small group of scout and they determine the processes, not something an adult tells them. The SPL does not run the troop, he facilitates the PLC and the PL's run the patrols. No one burns out because they are overwhelmed or need 3 years of maturity before they can start learning leadership. They get leadership of some form of training from day one and this continues until they turn 18 years of age. The new boys learn from the beginning that they do not lead by directive, but by group consensus, and that group will remain together for as long as they want it to. If there are adjustments to the group, or any merging going on it is at the consensus of the groups, not some arbitrary theory of an adult who think they may have a better way of doing things than the boys themselves. Stosh

Men of character will step up to the plate and correct a wrong. Sounds like it's time in that troop. To think "kids" can't stand up to adults is the #1 problem with the perception that encourages adults shanghai-ing the program in the first place. A scout may be Trustworthy, but he can't be trusted with the program. It's time the "kids" quit following along like a dog on a leash and deal with the problem they are facing. If the SM won't listen, go to the committee, then if they don't listen there's nothing that says they can't go to the CO. If the CO doesn't listen, then it's time to start a new troop with a CO that wishes to promote the BSA program. If that process means the boys are mutiny-ing, so be it. It's their program. In a few short years these "kids" will be adults and there's nothing magical about one's 18th birthday. If the boys haven't figured out leadership and dealing on a mature adult level with other adults, then the character building process hasn't been effective. Stosh

Sorry, I just can't get my mind around how scouts can mutiny against their own program? Maybe the question should be: "Is it Okay for boys to take back their program after adults have shanghaied it?" If the boys are starting a new crew, lay down the ground work as: the boys run the show. If the advisor(s) don't like it, find other advisors. Keep up this process until the CO finds adults willing to go with the BSA program of youth-led (Venturing) boy-led (Scouting). If this can't come together in the arena of discussion, then it's time to find other programs for the boys to do because there's not going to be real leadership developed in the boys anyway. Stosh

They have a year to recruit more members or merge their members with another patrol. If it's an older patrol, they have the option if they have the skills to take on troop officer roles within the troop and dissolve their patrol. I have two patrols right now of two boys (was 7 to begin with). One patrol was a mix of older boys and new boys. The older boys basically dumped them and left the troop. 2 new boys moved out of the area. The remaining two new boys kept the patrol together since last summer and have recruited one new member making their number 3. They have been on the phone for the past 3 months actively recruiting out of the Webelos boys of the three feeder packs making sure at least 3-5 boys cross over into their patrol. The other patrol of 2 members had a very successful first year and many of the boys chose to accept POR's in the troop officer corps. The TOC is led by the ASPL and operates as a virtual support patrol for the other patrols. These two boys are setting themselves up to be PL and APL of an all-crossover patrol of new boys. They are assuming the new boys will select them PL & APL once they get organized. They too have been recruiting heavily in the three feeder packs. After we find out how many new scouts that join up, I'm assuming there's going to be 3-4 mixed patrols and 2 NSP's. We have a pool of 39 Webelos boys available, but another troop recruiting also. It's an adult-led troop so my boys are competing against some pretty heavy-duty efforts on the part of the other troop's adults. old-new #1 4 - (4 or 6) #2 2 - (6 or 4) #3 3 - (2 or 5) #4 2 - (6 or 4) #5 6-8 new #6 6-8 new Patrols #1 & #3 may merge rather than take on new scouts. Patrols #2 & #4 are recruiting heavily Patrols #5 & #6 are filled up with extra crossovers (NSP's) With the crossovers coming in next month, by the end of the month, much of this will be sorted out and decisions will be made by the boys as to how they wish to handle the final mix. I don't foresee any of the patrols being less than 6 members. That'll be about 40 boys, most of whom are 11 or 12 years of age. I have only four boys older than that. Stosh

If there are 12 boys crossing over, instead of having one mega-NSP, why not have two managable patrols? No new scout can handle being PL of 11 other boys. That's a formula for failure for this poor boy. One experienced TG could work with both PL's and let the PL's run their patrols of 5 other boys. This also doubles the opportunity for leadership development with two PL's instead of one. Older boy mentoring will happen with the TG and Instructor involved with the NSP's. The dynamics change when an older "outsider" comes in and does the instruction and assistance. This also develops the troop officer corps to be supportive of the patrols by taking a hands-on approach with specific POR's. Nothing worse than having older-boy patrol #1 doing the instruction for NSP #2 where only 1 of the 8 boys is really all that interested in working with the NSP in the first place. Why not just take that one boy that IS interested and make him TG/Instructor and quit contriving scenerios that the boys are totally not interested in. They want to hang with their buddies, not babysit the NSP. Group to group dynamics are different than individual to group dynamics. Stosh

If adults were not interfering with what the boys were wanting to do in Scouting, why would they quit? Stosh

Being a boy-led program, they have decided that each patrol is to recruit out of the Webelos beginning a few months prior to cross-over. Each patrol can have as many as 8 boys and as few as 6. If there are more boys than needed in the older boy patrols, or the older boys have 6 boys and don't want any more they can stay that way. All the "left over" boys form as many patrols as they wish using the 6-8 numbers. When all is said and done, we have had both mixed and NSP patrols at the same time. Each patrol is responsible for the T-2-1 training of the new boys. The NSP is allowed to pick their own TG if they wish to have one. Adults are not part of this process. I find the NSP boys progress in requirement learning faster than the mixed patrols because they are all focused on the same interests. There is nothing to say the boys can't move to different patrols as they desire, nor is there anything stopping them from being a NSP and staying together as long as they wish as long as they maintain at least 6 members. Stosh

My boys use the standard bullet shaped flags from the 50-60's. They can start with any color they want. My Panthers have a black flag with yellow eyes. The Ravens have purchased off of E-Bay the original raven flag, and the other two patrols have picked emblems off the internet and iron-transferred them onto a white flag. I carry a beaver flag (WB patrol), my SPL has a white flag with 3 green bars, my ASPL has a white flag with 2 1/2 green bars. All flags are carried on a 6' stave. It is nice to be able to quickly look around and know where everyone is at at any given time. They are displayed outside their tents so everyone knows where the SM, and troop officers are located and where every patrol grouping is located. Once they started using the smaller patrol flags, the "created" flags they had made were quickly discarded as cumbersome and not very "professional" looking. They preferred a more polished flag. Stosh

Jarnigan's Sutlery sells white Civil War half "dog" shelters. Make your own poles and stakes. Same for the A-Frame tents. I have a 6' tall by 9' long A-frame which will hold two standard military cots. Or one cot and furniture. Each cot has plenty of room for a large plastic bin at the foot/head, with plenty of walk space inbetween. My daughter and girlfriend had plenty of room to get into their Civil War hoop dresses, but had to take one of the two cots down for the needed room. This larger, floor-less A-frame allows for no trenching of the tent. With cot, bin and chair, just pull up the floor, fold it nicely, put on top of bin, put your feet up on it and let the water run through the tent. No big deal. There are no ropes on the tent so one doesn't have to worry about tripping over ropes either. E-Bay sells the WWII (olive drab) half-shelters and poles for less than $30. Walking sticks/staves of each boy can double as tent poles and one can make stakes onsite. The shelter halves make ok ground cloths and pack covers as needed. Fold up cots can be found at most sporting good stores. Not the standard cots, but the ones I have have wire legs in the shape of a "W" that make the carrying handle of the cot. Gum blankets (kinda heavy, but make excellent "floors" are at any CW sutlery, rubber on one side, cloth on the other, and can be found in both blanket and poncho form. I use it as a ground cloth when I meadow crash and if the bad weather rolls in, grab an edge and roll over and you'll stay really dry. I use them to cover the windward end of the dog tent when the weather turns bad when I'm in my open-ended dog tent. Lightweight nylon military ponchos can be found on E-bay. Peg 3 corners of the poncho and use your walking stick to hold up the 4th corner for a nice temporary shelter. A Civil War soldier could carry all his equipment and 5 days of ration on his body and still march 20-25 miles a day in terrible shoes. Well, with nice shoes and some careful planning, 3 days is a walk in the park, and one doesn't have to carry an 11# rifle and 5# of lead bullets. Most people over pack their needs. Unless one attends Philmont and learns about these things, there's going to be a lot of junk dragged out there over the years. The boys always seem to be amazed how I get buy on a weekend outing using just an old BSA Yucca Pack. And what amazes me is my Venturing Crew boys generally carry even less than I do, I still like a few amenities along the way. They use the horse-collar bed rolls when they attend an event. Stosh

One of the skills of good leadership is to be able to conquer one's fears. I would think that with all that the normal scout troop does, he would constantly be at a disadvantage. Swimming, canoeing, sail-boating, rowing, motorboating, BWCA, whitewater rafting and canoeing, etc. etc. etc. Start with the YMCA and let him progress at his own pace. I have had boys fail their first swim test at summer camp, just to come back the next year and get the swimming MB. It depends on the drive and determination of the boy. I also had another boy take the swimming merit badge and the only thing he accomplished the whole week at camp was passing the swim test. And yes, he has eventually finished the MB. The ability to persevere and conquer one's fears is a powerful asset in the boy's leadership bag of tricks. Let him work on it. Stosh

Yes you are. If one prepares the boys for boy-led, patrol-method scouting, more often than not they're going to get the traditional adult-led, troop-method where the adults make all the decisions and run all the programs. Find a non-traditional troop where the taught program of BSA is actually in some vague disguise is actually being attempted. If one ever runs into a SM that spends 90% of his/her time keeping the parents from interferring with the boys, one might have a winner. Stosh

Memories????? Last year I used a modern tent once (canoe trip). With my Venturing Crew I never use a tent unless the weather threatens, then I use a double half-shelter with open ends. The last time I camped with my Scout Troop, I used the old military half shelters with the nice vestibules on both ends! Luxury camping! I throw in a gum blanket in to make a "floor" and sleep on a 3" high cot. In bad weather, I move the cot to the middle and pile gear on both ends so I don't touch the canvas. When summer camp does not have the standard wall tents and we need to bring out own, I have a nice large A-Frame canvas tent that I can get a regular sized cot, huge storage bin, and camp chair inside for real luxury. When the boys are complaining about the rain seeping in and soaking their gear, I'm usually sitting in my chair reading a book waiting out the storm in a nice dry tent. I have a nice modern tent for backpacking and specialty situations, but for the most part, a poncho suffices for a great tent/pack cover, etc, and weighs a lot less than most tents/poles/stakes on the market today. Poncho, a few feet of parachute cord and you're good to go. Stosh

YES, YES, YES! I wish they would! I've been waiting for some time to have my boys get off their butts and lead! The more they mutiny the better off I am as a SM, it means they are taking over their responsibility, developing their leadership, expressing their development, and basically running the show. I'm tired of being Capt. Bligh. If I had Nealonwheels in my troop I'd have done cartwheels! How does one inspire an epiphany in the boys! If one actually evaluates the issue, is it not proper to say that in most troops today the BSA program of boy-led, patrol-method has been commandeered by mutious ADULTS that have taken the program away from the boys? The last time I checked the name of the program is BOY Scouts of America, NOT ADULT Scouts of America. Ownership of the program belongs to the boys, adults, get out of the way and let the boys lead!!!! Remember adults, if you are not part of the solution, you must be part of the problem! Stosh

Gee, the old pup tents didn't have floors or doors, so there's no problem at all. One step in any direction can't make that much difference.... Stosh