Stosh

PIPER? Definition of a gentleman: One who can play the pipes but doesn't. Now a FIFER is something else. You want long range communication, upper register fife is unbelievable! Kinda makes one want to bring back the old drill routines of the original scouts. By the way, go to E-Bay, do a search on "BOY SCOUT" and you'll get hooked up with a $29.99 bugle. I can't vouch for it's quality, but the old adage of "You get what you paid for," might apply here. Otherwise look up Bugle. There's a BSA Rexcraft and bag going for $35.00ish with 6 hours to go. So they're out there at fairly good prices. Stay away from the copper/brass British bugles, they are short and difficult to play. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Buffalo, Bugles come in all shapes, forms and sizes. The larger bugles play more like a flugelhorn, a deeper richer tone rather than the brilliance of a cornet or even a high ranged trumpet. Our company bugler has one of these larger bugles and when the high school kids play taps at memorial day with a trumpet it's really nice. But when our bugler plays at the other ceremonies with this infantry bugle, it's, well, just WOW! Sends chills up and down one's spine. There's a big difference and it's just the instrument being used. When we do the ceremony for the CW veterans that were part of the unit we represent, he plays "Lights Out" which is the last bugle call of the day during the Civil War, it's really moving. he tune is prettier than traditional "Taps" used today. "Taps" that was played at the end of "Lights Out" was played on the drum,... Duh! :^D SSScout!!!? Is your bugler available hiring out so others can reap the benefit of his art? Like I said, the most valuable scout is the bugler!!! If you've never had one, you have no idea what you're missing! Stosh

If you wish to make it really hidden and easy. Put a small shirt button up under the collar of the shirt and fasten a small thread loop on the edge of the sash. Then when buttoned, the whole thing is up under the collar or necker when you wear it and then it doesn't slide down to where the epilette button is. This is probably the easiest and quickest way to deal with a slipping sash. If you are even lazier yet, get a "hook and eye" setup. Put the eye under the collar and the hook on the sash. That'll probably cost you 2-cents and the only skill you'll need is the ability to thread a needle. Either of these two options is about a 2 minute fix. Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

Bugles are realy cheap. The mouthpiece is more important than the bugle itself. The old BSA mouthpieces were terrible. The newer military bugles are better.. I used the $100 price originally because in order to get an easy playing bugle one may need to go a bit up in the price. I know a gentleman who bought a 1860's military bugle (bigger than modern bugles, mellow tone) that plays better than any other bugle he owns. It's lower in pitch by virtue of being a bigger bugle. Cavalry carried smaller bugles that were more difficult to play and infantry had the luxury of larger, easier horns. I picked up a pristine silver BSA Rexcraft bugle for $90 at an antique shop that sits on my display case and a second brass Conn modern military bugle in fair shape, needs to be relaquered, but no dents, slide works just fine mouthpiece is 100% better for $55 at another antique shop. I also have the short 1858 British duty bugle that plays a lot better than I thought it would for $30. Be careful of the short 1858 BDB's because many of them can be difficult to play especially with a poor mouthpiece. They are more display pieces than actually expected to be played. Stosh

Okay, a couple of things here to hit upon. Last meeting I had a boy ask for a SM conference. Ok, not a problem, they can have one any time they wish. He had completed his First Class requirements and was doing the SMC "officially". We sat down, chatted a bit about what he has done, etc. Then (sorry LisaBob!) I had him tie a bowline, taunt, etc. He got the bowline and square, but none of the others. Retest? Yes, but with a purpose. The discussion then went on to the fact that he was taking over the patrol as PL. How was he going to be able to take care of his new boys if he couldn't even tie the knots the new boys would be learning. Then we talked about how he thought the boys would like him if he couldn't help them all get first class in a year. Then we talked about what a PL was expected to do for his boys. The discussion never talked about going back and having to do anything over on his part, but we had an excellent discussion on how much easier being a PL would have been had he learned his requirements the first time. Now he has to do double duty to get ready for instruction while being PL. HE concluded (not me) that he's behind the curve and is going to have to relearn on his own so he can teach the new boys coming into his patrol. Did I retest? You bet I did, it's an excellent teaching tool for the boys. It had nothing to do with whether or not he would have to do the requirement again for getting his FC badge, the boy concluded that on his own regardless of what the patch on his pocket said. The patch on the sleeve all of a sudden became more important than the one on the pocket. BOR's can't retest, a SM can. I do it all the time over and over again with my boys. My only duty as SM is to assist the boys and that means doing it by whatever resources I can muster, including training, testing, retraining, retesting, etc. until the boy masters the skills well enough to teach others. Stosh

Ok, here's my solution. 1) Take the old sash and cut off above and below the top and bottom MB's. 2) Buy a new longer sash. 3) Take and unsew the top half of the top row of MB and unsew the bottom half of the bottom row of MB. 4) Fold the top and bottom under. Take the whole thing and superimpose on the new longer sash, sew top of top MB's on the new sash, same for the bottom, (now the seams are under the top and bottom row of MB's. 5) Go back and run both sides down the machine 6) take a few tack stitches at the MB junctures so that it lays flat (like a yarn tied quilt). 7) Get a cup of coffee and feel good about all the hassle you missed out on. Stosh

Like gwd-scouter, I do SM conferences all the time. With a boy-led program, it frees me up to float around from patrol to patrol, boy to boy throughout the evening/event and "chat" with everyone and "how's it going" kinda thingys. I'm thinking that pretty much all my boys have "passed" that requirement well before they get to the BOR whether they know it or not. My PL's check off on all requirements for advancement for the boys, SPL does it for PL's and because I do float around, I'm never worried about whether or not that SM Conference box is checked or not, I've already "checked" it with what I do as SM. When the boy finishes rank, he get's the "Hey, I hear you're done with _____ rank, congrats! Say, how did it go for you?" chat. :^D Stosh

Shortridge, Yes, I would agree that a whistle would be difficult to come up with a "tune" and would sound more like Morse Code in order to be effective. The range of the whistle would not be as good as the bugle's. I would think that the bugle call could be heard pretty much throughout the camp, barring no wind, obstacles, etc. that would deflect/absorb the sound. 1/2 mile is not out of the question. Buffalo, The tune you might be referring to is what I call the prelude. A very short 4-5 melody that would signal everyone that a bugle call is forthcoming. If the boy recognizes it as his troop's "tune"/prelude then he continues to listen otherwise he ignores what comes next. If there is a second patrol "tune"/prelude same thing applies, then the bugler sounds the call (what you call the instruction). That doesn't mean that the bugler has to play only the standard calls, i.e. Assembly, Mess Call, Church Call, To the Colors, but can make up whatever he wants, just so long as the boys in his troop know what it is he's communicating. My suggestion would be for your trumpet player to just use his trumpet, it works just fine for a bugle. Otherwise, they have hundreds of bugles both BSA and non-BSA on sale on E-Bay for less than $100 depending on condition of the instrument. Get the Bugling/Music MB book, or the Learn the Bugle in 5 Minutes that was used back in the early days of Scouting to teach the boys. I got mine off of E-Bay. If the boy actually does play trumpet the title is a true statement. If he doesn't play a brass instrument, I'll guarantee you he will not learn the bugle in 5 minutes. Once the boy has mastered and memorized the calls, he then needs to teach the boys of his troop what they mean so that when they hear them they know the message being sent. He can make up his troop prelude on his own and teach that as well. If any or all of the patrols want a prelude he can create them as well. After the boys have learned to identify the call they then have to know what the call means. Assembly - gather up your patrol/troop (depending on the prelude) and get ready for the next call, you are being called together for some reason that will be announced in the next few minutes. Once the bugler thinks the boys have had enough time to gather, he plays Mess Call - time to eat, Church Call - head for the chapel, To the Colors - head for the flag ceremony, etc. Bugling is a great tool for larger units that have boys spread out all over camp. A good bugler will know the time it takes to execute the call. If everyone is spread out all over camp and they need to assemble in the campside, Troop prelude -> Assembly will gather all the patrols in the campsite or patrol designated area for assembly. He then waits the time he thinks the patrols have accomplished this and then the next call. The time of waiting will be a lot less if the boys are in and around the campsite anyway, but those out in the woods getting firewood will get the message and return to camp. Assembly might also be used to gather up the boys and get their uniforms on before heading out for Mess Call or To the Colors. What is interesting is that in the Civil War (about the last time the military really used functional buglers) they were able to direct 1,000 men per regiment right down to Forward March, Rise up, Lie Down, Halt, every command a commander might wish to give to the men all at the same time. It's also interesting in light of the war setting, ALL the officers had to be able to sound the bugle calls as well as the bugler in case he was killed or wounded. It would be the same today if someone killed the squad radioman. All communications come to a screeching halt. In Civil War reenacting, once one learns the regimental bugle calls, they also have to learn the drum calls which regulate every action in the company right down to when to pull the trigger. I am senior captain in my regiment and I often take on the role of regimental adjutant and the very first thing I do when I hit the reenactment site is run around and find my functional buglers and drummers. They are a gift from god! I would dearly love to have a truly functional bugler in my troop! Stosh

Let's look at it this way: The boy appoaches the SM for a Conference. The SM refuses for whatever reason. All he says is "No." Doesn't this 2 second discussion count as a SM Conference? The SM just limited it to 2 seconds and accomplished the conference. Stosh

Ok, I started this maybe I ought to not commandeer another thread. Some summer camps use a camp bugler at the flag ceremonies. While this is a nice fluff touch to the ceremony, it really doesn't mean it functionally fits the situation. Most camps play either "Assembly" or "To the Colors", but of which are meant to call the boys TO the ceremony. Why are they playing the call when the boys are already there? The second issue is what happens when a troop wishes to communicate to their boys? Now one has a number of troop buglers playing calls and when those camps are but a few hundred feet apart, which call is for which troop? It was suggested that whistles be used to send signals. I thought that if one has a functional bugler, that would fit the POR better than a Troop Whistler. I do Civil War reenacting and when thousands of soldiers take the field these bugle calls are imperative for moving them around during the day. In order to distinguish one group from another there is usually a 4-5 note prelude to the call. This way the boys know which troop is sounding a call, then they listen to the call and they know what to do. A second prelude could be used if one wished a particular patrol to do something as well. Troop call -> patrol call -> Assembly. Then X patrol from Troop XX will gather up. Everyone else can ignore the call. It really works and works great! Capt. Stosh

While the quote is great, where this thread is is going is totally inappropriate. Stosh

Customs vary from pack to pack, but with potlucks in our area, the more the merrier. Have Grandma and Grandpa toss in an extra salad and come and have some fun watching their boy get his awards! The whole idea is to surround each Cub with those that care about his accomplishments. I would think the operative word here is care. If his family cares enough to want to be there, make sure they get the invite. Stosh

It would just so happen that the bulk of our current boys are last year's Webelos crossovers. The three packs that the boys are recruiting in are the three packs that they came from all chartered by the three grade schools in town. These boys are all from the class behind them and up until last year hung around them and basically know them. Once they get the name of one boy in the Web Den, then they can collect up the names of the other boys. We also last fall went to their meeting and did a presentation so the PL's would know at least from sight who these boys might be. And by the way, we don't have the boys recruiting as a program process of the troop. Patrols that are short members, i.e. need 6-8 boys to remain a viable patrol, can "get their friends to join up". If this means they dip back a year into the Web dens, so be it. At the crossover they have the right to greet the boys they think will be joining up with their patrol. The PL is the highest ranking officer in our troop. When his potential new member crosses over, he can step forward to welcome him. If no PL steps forward, the SPL steps forward and welcomes the boy. However, the process does not stop there. At the first troop meeting, each crossover boy is asked what his preference is; he can join the patrol that was trying to recruit him, welcomed him or any other legacy patrol he wishes, or he can with his buddies start a NSP of their own. Each boy makes a specific decision on his own. If the boys aren't recruited, they can still choose any legacy patrol they wish. If they decide to form a NSP AND wish to have a TG they can pick any boy in the troop to assist them. If chosen, that boy has the choice to accept or reject the request. Although it is not promoted, the NSP also has the option to select any boy from the other patrols to be their PL as long as they are not bigger than 8 scouts. If they use the TG, they then select from their patrol membership a PL and APL. Coming from a small town knowing who the boys are isn't really any problem and calling the scout office for a list of names would be a waste of time, the boys already know each other. Stosh

>>>> "they don't participate in the camporee per se" >>>>Well, why in the world not??? Are they not members of your Troop? What better way to get them functioning as a patrol! This is, for many of the boys, the first time they have been on their own camping. This is the time for the TG to help them through the process step by step. Most of the time at camporees there is a schedule that the boys are following. There shouldn't be that time constraint/pressure placed on these new scouts. If it takes them a little longer to get their fire started, cook their breakfast and clean up, it might just be enough time for the second scout to step in and start lunch and go through the whole process once more, finishing up just in time for the next boy to start all over with supper. The boys need to learn to do it right, not fast. They can work on speed in the future. The process is dictated by the TG who's responsible for walking these boys through the learning curve without some scheduled time table. These boys are in their patrols, separated from the troop by as much room as possible and are working with their TG only. This is the normal course of action for the NSP's. If one has a legacy patrol that has taken on crossover boys, they will press the process and make the schedules. What happens in this, however, is what I illuded to in another post, their leadership development is held back a bit, but they have more than just a TG to help them along. They may have a 1:1 older boy/younger boy ratio and won't take as much time to work through the learning curve whereas a TG may have a 1:8 ratio and need the time to make sure everyone is progressing and enjoying the time on the outing. A lot of our camporees are patrol competitions which will put heavy pressure on this boys to provide knowledge in skills they haven't been taught. The boys feel that spending quality time in patrol camp learning how to build a fire correctly is better than going to a competition and not knowing what is even expected of them. This process of shakeout is something the older boys felt was necessary if they are going to have enough time to help these boys do it right the first time. Quality can't be rushed. As far as patrol dynamics are concerned, they learn from this process that as a patrol of 6-8 boys there's no one there except the TG to get them through the weekend (barring an emergency of course) and they have to turn to each other to make it work. It's a great patrol building process that has worked in the past for the boys and they wish to continue it. I haven't heard any complaints from the new boys either. They like the more relaxed non-schedule. Mostly the NSP boys participate in a.m. and p.m. flags, and the campfire in the evening where they can cheer on the legacy patrols that were able to compete. Stosh

Whistle codes? Isn't that what the bugler is supposed to be there to do? After all, the bugler POR is supposed to be a functional position. Stosh

"A couple more questions for you. Just for a frame of reference, how large is your troop " I started with 5 boys (Life, FC now Star, 3 Scouts all 14+ years of age), (8/2007) added an older boy transfer (9/2007 Life Scout 14) took on 20 new Webelos (2/2008). One older scout transfered in from the other troop in the neighborhood (10/2007 FC now Star 14). I now have 18 active boys. We are moving into Blue Gold season and have a potential of 39 new Webelos boys crossing over from 3 packs in the neighborhood. "and what is its composition (patrols, ages, ranks, etc). " We had 3 patrols and one TG who did the SPL thing as needed. TG because the make up of the troop was mostly Webelos crossover boys. The boys reorganized 6 months ago (8/2008) and one PL stepped up to SPL to work with PL's, the TG became ASPL and has 3 boys in the TOC, QM, OA Rep and a DC. The one patrol moved up a member into PL. Another patrol had a PL step down and was replaced by another PL. Third patrol lost a lot of members (older boy problem mentioned in earlier posts) but has retained their PL. Another boy stepped out of a patrol and has been working independently as a PL to recruit out of the Webelos boys to form his own patrol. I'm thinking that even after the numbers of legacy patrols fill up there might still be one or two NSP's needed depending on the number of crossovers. "With this in mind, how often do you do training," Along with the T-2-1 requirement training, the boys had an opportunity to earn 2 MB's at summer camp and are working on a third at the present time (Pioneering). They all had the opportunity to have Green Bar Patrol training of which 5 completed. The DC completed the full DC training program as well as the on-line fast start. I am currently teaching NLT to the boys as they prepare for the influx of new Webelos boys in a couple of weeks. "and in what setting do you do the training?" Troop meetings are used for teaching. (One hour of the 1.5 hour timeslot) " Also how long do PLs serve?" As long as they wish to do the work and the boys want them to lead. " Assuming long "terms" how often do you have one step down, and how does this affect your "training schedule"? " One boy stepped down because of a busy schedule (Star Scout), another from his patrol took over, just did his BOR for First Class last night. He was a Webelos crossover from last year. Another FC (Webelos crossover from last year) went independent and is trying to form a NSP from this year's Webelos boys. One boy stepped out of his patrol to become SPL. I asked him if he wished to do this because he was my best PL from last year (Life scout, project completed, working on last couple of MB's for Eagle.) He chose to accept the position. The TG -> ASPL (Life scout just starting project, finished up a MB last night, needs a couple more partials completed.) He is directly responsible for training the individuals in the TOC, he gives the QM training, OA Rep training, etc. I did the DC training this year because it needed to be done quickly, but the ASPL will be expected to do it in the future. He could delegate it to the trained DC to do as well if he chooses. His choice. He is also responsible for any T-2-1 training his TOC members might need. They are on the TOC because of what they want to DO and has nothing to do with rank or age. QM stepped out of his patrol to function in that role (Tenderfoot) OA Rep stepped out of his patrol (Star scout transfer from other troop in town) DC - stayed in his patrol temporarily until his patrol can recover with new Webelos scouts. Because his duties are not troop related, he has chosen to stay with his patrol which does not create any conflict of interest in the operation of the troop. These officer positions are moved around depending on the needs of the patrols. If a PL is busy with sports for a while, he steps down and another picks up the functionality. My SPL had a season of sports and the ASPL did double duty (SPL/ASPL of the TOC) while he was absent. He was able to come to the first half of the meeting but had to leave and the ASPL helped the patrols wrap up the meetings. All in all it has been a struggling year with the burst of new Webelos quadrupling the size of the troop, and there's a possibility of tripling it's size once more. It has been a real strain on my boys, but they have struggled along pretty well. The reputation of the troops efforts have become known in the community and when one of the Webelos DL's sent out this year's invitation to the Blue Gold it was sent to the SPL, not me. Yea, this stuff works! We are still seriously deep into the learning curve, but as soon as the patrols shake out next month, they will have the opportunity to start their Scout advancement and get into Tenderfoot. At that point (2-3 weeks) we will redo the Green Bar Patrol training once again. It will be heavily taught by the 5 graduates of last year's training (none of which were older boys!). Age doesn't seem to play out as a factor in much of what we do. I have a 17 year old that by nature of his age is looked to for guidance, but I have some highly motivated new boys that have gotten FC and felt confident enough to strike out on their own to recruit a new patrol of their own. The boys all know that any opportunity they have is what they make it to be. I have 12 year old boys that are functioning at a level that was only attained by age 14-15 in my former troop. I still get a lot of deer-in-the-headlight looks, but when they don't get a rise out of me, they settle down and figure things out pretty well. I have not only been pleased with what these boys have done, but quite impressed as well. I basically didn't think it would work as well as it did. This next year is going to be a blast! 25-35 new boys? What an opportunity for my last year's Webelos to show their leadership! The only wrench in the mix is if we have 1-2 new NSP's they have the option to select their TG's from the existing membership so the structure won't be stettled for some time in the near future. By mid-March the boys should know what the organization is going to be for the forseeable future. Stosh

I'm up here with Beavah, but I have the opposite reaction to the situation. I like to get the boys in Feb so they have time to learn how to camp, acquire the skills, equipment, go to the camporee in May for a shakeout to get the boys fired up (they don't participate in the camporee per se, just go, do the meals, set up tents, and the basics, campfire etc., the fun stuff) then when they get ready for summer camp they spend their time reviewing their experience, what went right, what went wrong and start their menus, etc. getting ready for patrol method camping at summer camp. By the end of the summer when the boys come home from summer camp, they are veteran campers at a time when other boys are just starting out, especially those that crossed over late and didn't get an opportuity to go to summer camp the first year. It just depends on how one gets the boys organized and how quickly they catch on. Boys at that age tend to be rather eager to get out and start the camping process as quickly as they can. Summer is the time for outings, when we get the boys in Feb, we have enough lead time to make sure they're ready for it. Stosh

Non-parishables can be mailed down there through UPS/USPS and picked up when you arrive, parishables you can purchase while down there. Like it has been said, most towns have a grocery store. Worse case scenerio, make up your menus, shopping lists, and.... well, you know the routine. :^D Stosh

The last time I bought for the troop I used to belong to I purchased the Gunnison-4 tents from Kelty. They are still being used and still look nice. The great part of this tent is the rain fly extends to the ground all the way around, has two openings with a huge vestibule on each side for securing gear. The unit always bought a 4 man tent for two boys and only housed the full 4 boys in the high adventure outings where weight was an issue. The "chronic problem" with the zippers is because the boys do not open the doors all the way and stress the zippers by squeezing into the tent with the door only half opened. The tents that I was buying did not replace the previous Timberline tents, only supplemented them as the troop grew. Those tents lasted for well over 10 years with no problems. The troop had a waiting list of boys that were caught not opening their tent doors all the way. They were put on a list so that the next time a zipper had to be replaced they had to pay for it even if it wasn't their fault. The practice was policed by peer pressure as the names on the list grew. There were very little problems with zippers after a couple of boys got "stuck with the bill". When such things get translated into $$'s it is surprising how well the boys pay attention. Stosh

The process we have used is the boy stands on the Cub side of the bridge, the CM takes off the necker and hands it to the parent who stay on the Cub side. The boy crosses over and is welcomed by the PL of the patrol he is planning on joining with who presents him with a troop necker. If the boy has no patrol who has directly recruited him, he is greeted by the SPL who presents the necker and welcomes him. The boy will have his choice of patrol options at the next troop meeting. There has always been other troops there as well and the boy decides which troop he will be joining as he comes off the end of the bridge. The other troop has the SM greet all the boys. If the boy is not joining a troop he has the choice of not crossing over the bridge or crossing over the bridge and then going and sitting with his family. My boys take note of these boys and begin actively recruiting them before the evening is through. Stosh

Unfortunately we didn't have the option to just hang out. 6 boys in the troop all of a sudden had 25 new Webelos boys that showed up! 3 of the boys took over as PL's and the other three took some but eventually abandoned them to their own recources. Needless to say the new boys weren't all that upset that they left. This is the patrol that has been making phone calls for a month now recruiting heavily in the Webelos boys planning on considering us for the upcoming year. 39 of them potentially could join and triple our numbers once again. I'm thinking we may be seeing a growth from 5 boys to well over 40 in a 2 year time period. Needless to say 6 boys have completed TLT and have completed their advancement to First Class well within the first year. Stosh

Sorry Buffalo, I was responding to the gentleman who had a problem patrol of older boys who had leadership that didn't want to work at it. The concept my boys have adopted is that the patrols right from the git-go are permanent. There is none of this trial NSP patrols only for the first year and then an evening of musical chairs. My boys have adopted two methods of patrol maintenance. 1) NSP where all the members are Webelos cross-overs with their own leadership under the guidance of a patrol selected TG to assist them the first year. 2) Patrols of older boys recruit out of the pool of Webelos boys take in and nurture them their first year. The Webelos boys have the option of which way they wish to go. Generally older boy patrols that have lost a few members to aging out, disinterest or moving on to TOC. These patrols have the option of recruiting or closing down and joining up with other patrols. There's also another option which would be a NSP that request an older boy to come in and be their PL. This would then not require the need of a TG. I have suggested to the boys that in the interest of developing leadership in the new boys that this option not be promoted very strongly. However, if it is chosen, the PL has the option to working the boys through the APL position to get them oriented to leadership in a safe environment. Generally speaking that PL would hang with the patrol for the first year and then consider some other options to let that patrol develop a continuity on it's own. I like the "outsider" TG because he does not take a vested interest in the patrol's leadership but is more responsible for developing it from within the patrol's membership itself. The TG can then return to his own patrol after the new patrol gets on it's feet. I think the Webelos moving into an older boy patrol may progress through rank faster, but acquire less leadership opportunities along the way. The opposite is generally true for the other option. They by nature of the beast have to get leadership going and do so at the price of leadership skill development. This is basically the same principle we face occasionally with the TOC members. When they wish to go back into a patrol with their friends, if their spot is filled with new boys, it makes it difficult. Because the number of patrol members allowed is between 6-8, sometimes the patrols hold open a spot for a returning member who may have been asked to step out to be TG or DC or some other TOC position for a short term assignment. Of course for the really up and coming scout if they want to be a PL and can't get "elected" in his patrol, he can branch out and recruit a patrol from out of the Webelos boys and offer his expertise as their PL and/or TG. Because our TOC is not appointed positions, their numbers fluxuate as the situation dictates with the needs of the patrols. If we have no new Webelos coming in, there's no need to maintain the TG position and that boy is eligible to move back into his old patrol, or any patrol he wishes that has openings for that matter. This process could happen 2 months into the NSP's organization or he could stay a full year if that's what the NSP needs to get going. Every group of boys is different. Stosh

This is the problem that arises when POR terms are enforced. On the other hand have the boys considered holding office for as long as they do the work? If a poor choice is made, why wait 6 months to correct it? A lot of grief can be had in that length of time. Just recently a PL announced he will not be around on scout night because he has gotten involved in karate. Within 2 weeks a new PL was put into place by the members of that patrol. No hassle, just made the change and life goes on. Stosh

It would seem that not all boys are of equal maturity as others. The three boys that dropped out were 14-15 year olds that were in the program only for the fun, one was a Scout and the other Tenderfoot. The third was First Class. It would seem that after three years they really weren't interested in the program/advancement and were in it just to hang out. When we took on 25 new Webelos boys, they were expected to take on more of a leadership role which they were not interested in. The other three were Life scouts (2) and First Class (1) and are still in the troop working to make it something worthwhile. All of them took PL positions to work with the new scouts. These other 3 boys were recruited from the general public and were not previous Cubs. They were there just to hang out with their friends. I know why these boys left so I'm not scratching my head at all. The three older boys identified this well before the other 3 boys even left. Stosh

"So, you think an 11 year old boy actually knows if he wants to be in a NSP versus an established patrol?" >>> Maybe not, but he should get the opportunity offered to him anyway. When an adult takes options off the table for any scout, he/she is taking away leadership opportunities that challenge the youth in a way they may wish to go. Only the boy knows whether he's ready or not. If he is he shoudl be given the chance. This applies directly with a Webelos cross-over den that has been hanging together as buddies since Tiger. Now that they are in Scouts, the adults tell them they have to break up that group? Nope, not in my book. Then there's the single Webelos cross-over that has no place to go? Maybe the commradarie of older boys might be what he needs/wants. Every boy gets the choice. "He understands the differences between the two concepts and how they work?" >>>> If he doesn't he should have the opportunity to learn. We all learn by the choices we make and no choice is forever. If he doesn't like his choice, he can freely change his mind at anytime. "He actually has enough knowledge and experience to make that decision?" >>>> Of course not, but to deprive him the opportunity is not Scouting in my book. Where does he get the knowledge and experience if never given the opportuity to learn? "That he has the ability to see the consequences of that decision?" >>>> This is what learning is all about. If he falls in his face, pick him up, dust him off, and send him out again. This is how boys learn. We will always learn more from our mistakes than our successes. "Pretty amazing for a boy who just crossed over into the program." >>> Yep, treating every boy as a young adult instead of just a kid is a challenge to his character development and leadership skills right from the git-go. "The SM provides the vision for the Troop, which includes the cooperation and competition between Patrols to reach that vision." >>>> Boy-led, patrol-method is the only vision my boys are interested in. "A Patrol that is a clique is a problem." >>>> Except BP said that a patrol is a "gang", and if one understands gang dynamics, this grouping and it's loyalty is a powerful tool in getting boys to work together and express their leadership options. Boys are going to clique together whether we as adults like it or not. Might as well work with the process rather than fight it. "By definition, they only want to hang with each other and do what they want to do, as opposed to a Patrol that is a gang that also understands they have responsibilities and obligations to the Troop." >>> Yep, and for those boys that wish to assist in the development of younger scouts, they are all challenged to accept a TOC position and drop out of their clique and work with the various patrols of the troop. This is why our TOC members are not patrol members. Remember not every boy wishes to do this, but all should be given the opportunity. "They understand if it wasn't for the Troop, they wouldn't have a Patrol." >>>> This argument holds true for units of membership greater than 8, then it doesn't and BSA forms units with as few as 5 boys. Once the unit gets greater than 8, two independent patrols are formed and one older, more mature boy is invited to step out of the patrol structure to assist in helping both patrols grow independently and to offer assistance in the occasions they wish to work together. This is how the PLC eventually evolves into the support group for the patrols. What I call the troop-method constantly reenforces the idea that the patrols are of no real importance other than division of work. They are assigned tasks by the PLC to do as they are told. Once they realize they have all the responsibilty for fuction, but no authority, they will realize that leadership is not part of the process and will remain followers until they get old enough to dictate and rule. The pattern being taught in this process is not true leadership and in the long run will turn boys off. They get enough "do as you are told" at home, school and sports. They want leadership skills. Patrol-method allows them that opportunity in a safe, incubation type of setting which is small enough for even a novice leader trying out his wings. Stosh