Stosh

Our patrols are limited to 8 boys max. There are very few instances where a limit is placed lower than that. Troop-method scouting will always have problems with size limits, patrol-method won't. Stosh

BWCA limits the number of people on a crew/permit. Philmont limits the number of people on a trek. Sea Base limits the number of people in a crew. Sometimes the boys have to figure out that 1) someone is not going to be going or 2) someone has to step up to the plate and double their resouces to make it happen. I took 36 boys up to BWCA on 4 permits. We didn't see much of each other, but a ton of boys had a great time. Stosh

Some of my best scouts were those who stood toe-to-toe and fought me the hardest, but if one really cares for these boys, sometimes tough love is the only way to break down the walls. If one is successful, one will have a fantastic scout. If one is not, at least the boy will have something to think about later in life when he realizes how much someone was trying to work him through it. Stosh

I agree. If there are no adults at the station, the boys can do just fine by themselves with a cell phone backup. Otherwise station 4 boys at each station so they could go for help if necessary. Standard BSA rules. Keep it in mind there is the issue of Venturing Crew "boys" being over 18 and less than 21 which throws the perverbial wrench into things about defining them as adults for Boy Scout purposes on a Boy Scout event. Stosh

We use TroopMaster. I've been involved with it as ASM-Advancement and now as SM. We have the internet connection and it works fantastic. I have not used any other Troop software so I cannot compare it. Just a plug for what we use, TroopMaster gets an A+. Stosh

After reading through all the different takes on this issue I noticed one that hasn't been addressed. Uniforming as a rule to be enforced. Uniforming as an expectation to be achieved. I guess I've always viewed uniforming as a means of leadership focus for my troop officers instead. Many of the old requirements for rank required the boys to be observant and attuned to details around them. I find that a proper uniform forces each individual and then each officer to assume a role that goes beyond enforcement or even expectations to critical observation. Before each meeting, the patrols all gather and the PL does a quick-over inspection of his boys so they look their best when they are called to fall in for the flag ceremony. Buttons buttoned, tails tucked, neckers straight, etc. It forces the PL to focus on the details that sets his patrol apart from the average run of the mill patrol, get by attitude that we are trying to work the boys through. Before a hike, PL, do your boys have water? double socks? uniform? first aid kit? rain gear? - are your boys prepared? I teach a form of "servant leadership" that directs the PL's to take care of their members, that's why he's the leader. If the PL isn't going to watch out for his people, who is? Is this a rule? Nope. Is it an expectation? Nope. Is it what separates the good leaders that care for their followers or from those that don't? Yep. Right from Tenderfoot on - buddy system, we teach our boys to care and watch out for someone other than just themselves. Two boys checking each other out just before inspection is how that leadership develops. My boys wear full uniforms because they have pride in their patrol and don't want to let their buddies down. There's no rule or punishment for non-compliance, but we don't seem to have a problem either. Stosh

Just because they drive to an event doesn't mean they have to participate in it. If I wasn't big into whitewater canoeing and I drove the boys up to the river, I could spend a nice day fishing instead while the boys went off and did their thing. I've gone on a lot of trips over the years where the bus driver didn't participate in the activity, just drove the bus. Adults need to learn to let go..... :^D Stosh

As far as the drive storage in the camera is concerned, what one might consider is getting everyone's software download programs from all the digital cameras on the trip and download each night onto a laptop. That way you will have as much storage as the laptop will hold, just empty all the cameras at the end of the day. This way you are limited only by the size of the camera's disk. One could even download in an emergency mid-day for those who have small disks in their cameras. Stosh

Take it serious, nothing worse than a flag ceremony with the boys laughing and goofing off. Try not to make it too complicated. Too many people try to make more of it than it needs to be. A simple dignified ceremony with a few commands to let the boys know what's going on should be sufficient. Salute and pledge is about all one needs. Stosh

But alas, look at the map, I-90 runs right from Ohio to Yellowstone and right through my hometown! :^) Stosh

If the boys look forward to coming to scouts every week and complain to their parents when they can't be there, you have a successful unit. Stosh

We drove from western WI out to summer camp at Camp Buffalo Bill (6 miles outside of park's east entrance, Central WY Council). Spent the week there, toured Yellowstone before heading back. We used vans and SUV's rather than a bus. A bus in those mountains is a real challenge. I did tour Yellowstone a few years back from a Pace Arrow RV, and boy was I glad I wasn't driving. Advice: don't rush through the touring. Lots of nice trails to get back to the sights, hiking around Old Faithful out to Morning Glory pool will take you at least a comfortable hour+. Plan if possible to do the tour over a two day period, taking the lower loop one day and the upper loop the next. Nothing is worse than traveling all that distance and then rushing through everything. We camped at West Yellowstone in between the two days of park touring. We were tenting so it was out of the question to camp in the park. Plan a nice break stop in the Black Hills/Badlands and/or Devil's Tower. Expect cool weather and if you want there's some nice out-of-the-way camp areas that we found that were free and open to the public with minimum amenities (Buckhorn Mts.). Lots of animals, minimum amenities big open meadow, no sites, pit toilet and water 1/2 mile away. If you tour in early June, all the meadow flowers will be in bloom. That in itself is worth the trip alone to see that. The week of summer camp at Buffalo Bill was somewhat primitive, but nice. Bear and wolves walked through the camp mid-week. Grizzly visited the week before. All water in the area is too cold for swimming, too much glacier run off. Scenery is fantastic. My only advice is to TAKE YOUR TIME. You've gone a long way to see it, don't rush it. And for Heaven's sake take a camera!!!!!!!!!!!! Make sure you have ample access to recharger ability or take lots of batteries. Old Faithful is on an internet feed. Make sure you get your boys in front of the camera and let the folks back home know how much fun you're having. Do you have an extra seat and can you stop in Wisconsin on your way through? Stosh

A few years ago I was on a Philmont trek where the boys and SM shot ahead on a consistant basis. I was not out of shape, I had trained for 9 months prior to going and I was 50 years old, 165#'s so that wasn't the problem. Finally the SM assigned another leader to fall back with me to be my buddy. After a day or so he traded out the other adult to fall back and babysit me. Then the arguing began. The adults both wanted to fall back with me. They were parents of the boys and then the boys wanted to fall back with me as well. It would seem that I was seeing more scenery, wildlife, and spending more time enjoying the trek rather than concentrating on the 3-4 feet of trail just in front of my feet. What was happening was the fast group would get out ahead, and take a 10 minute break after a 30 minute sprint. That break was over about the time I would catch up. Not a problem, I didn't need a break. This happened over and over again throughout the trek. I stopped for the half hour mid-morning break and then at lunch. I wasn't all that tired once we reached the next camp. I knew how to pace myself and when all was said and done, I would reach the break areas and final campsite only about 5-10 minutes behind the speedy group. Interestingly I was the only member of the trek that didn't get blisters and managed to see everything I wanted to see along the way. It was interesting how many things these boys didn't see that the slow group did. Although there was a boy assigned to lead (son of the father that dropped back with me), he was never able to slow the group down because the SM kept insisting on keeping the boys moving along at his expectations. Sometimes one has to take inventory in what the event is all about and whether or not the adults may in fact have something to offer the situation to maximize it's benefits. If the adults aren't all on the same page, the boy's become casualties. Stosh

I had one boy that couldn't do a pull-up at all. After 30 days of practice he was able to do a partial (he got his elbows to bend a bit). I teased him all the way through scouting about this problem and at his Eagle Banquet, he tried yet again. He did get the elbows to bend a bit so he hadn't lost any ground. He did get a full-ride football scholarship as a defensive lineman, so all was not lost. Great kid, got a great future, excellent scout, admired by his fellow sscouts, fantastic Eagle. He just can't do pull-ups. It's about the boys, not the requirements!!!!!! Stosh

Kudu, I have been practicing the policy of patrol QM's, Patrol Instructors, Patrol Scribes, etc. getting credit for the job being done on a patrol level. The boys in the Troop Officer Corps obviously get credit for POR, but in my estimation of the work being done, so do the patrol POR's. At this point the only boys not getting POR credit are the APL, the patrol Treasurer, Hikemaster, Grubmaster, etc. Those where there is nothing specifically defined in the literature. I have often thought that with the amount of work the Grubmaster does for his patrol, it's a shame he gets no credit for it. But then one's gotta eat either way. What's your take on this practice? Stosh

Did the boy miss the troop and hike activities because he didn't want to go, or because his parents didn't allow him, or parents were too busy to take him, or ????? A lot of dynamics here. There's nothing wrong with multiple hikes over different times so all the boys can meet the requirement because of scheduling conflicts. Same for the Boy Scout activities. There's a lot of opportunities that get missed because of conflicts with home, school and church. When I did the WDL bit, I offered the same activities at least twice if not three times so all the boys could have an opportunity. To say there's only one activity and if you can't make it too bad, you miss out on AOL, then there's something wrong with the Webelos program, not the boy. Ok, one boy needs a hike... Why can't all the boys get a chance to go out and have a second, third or forth hike just for fun? This teamwork dynamic means the boys get more fun activities along the way! What's wrong with that? Too often we think in terms of accomplishing rank advancement rather than opportunities for fun. Boys don't think that way unless adults teach them. This is why adults earn the Eagle rank more often than the boys do. Same applies for AOL. Stosh

I guess I would make available the cards and patches to the den leader for the boys who missed the Pack AOL ceremony to be handed out later at the den meeting/event. If the den wishes to make a big deal for the boys, so be it, I don't see a problem with that. If the parents/den wishes to have the patches before the B/G, I would quietly inform them that that would not be possible in case any of the boys may miss the boycott and show up at the B/G, you wish to have the patches available for them. The boys will get a nice "party" either way. This is for the boys. One cannot force the parents to show up at the gala event, but then the boys shouldn't be penalized if their parents are being poops either. I find the more people think they can rile up others with some kind of boycott or "message" being sent to those "others", the more they think they have won something. I just quietly respond, "Sorry you feel that way" and then let it pass without any further comment. This non-reaction keeps the control where it belongs and doesn't allow those others to think they are getting away with something. If someone comes to the battle armed to the teeth and the other guy takes the high road and ignores them, it really takes the wind out of their sails. Remember back when your parents told you to ignore the bullies? Same principle applies here. Don't get down on their playground level. Don't let them make you be someone you don't wish to be. Stosh

Twocubdad, You may wish to consider patrol instructors that coordinate with a troop Instructor for their patrol's needs. This way the troop Instructor becomes the resource go-to person for T-2-1 training and leadership training. The Instructor also has an "assistant" at the patrol level who can help out with any hands-on instruction. This patrol Instructor becomes acclimated with the instruction process and the troop has a pool of boys on the patrol level working in that program that can step down and take on the troop Instructor position as needed. Many of the Troop Officer Corps positions can be filled this way, i.e. Scribe, Chaplain Aide, QM, etc. This way these boys don't have to take on a troop level position without having had the opportunity to build up some controlled experience in the position. Nothing worse than having a boy step into a troop officer position for rank advancement and know nothing about the job. The "on-the-job" training should be done before they get there so the transition is smooth. The question remains then, "Do these patrol Instructors get POR credit for doing the job on the patrol level?" I tend to think so, because they need to work with the patrol Scribe and PL to make sure their patrol buddies get the proper training. In some way or another most of the boys should be constantly in a POR whether they actually get a patch or not and then maybe should be getting credit for it along the way, too. If these patrols are running efficiently they should make excellent training grounds for the eventual troop officers that are older and more mature to coordinate the activities of multiple patrols. To have a boy take over a troop officer position without any training or background is setting the boy up to fail in many respects. Stosh

As SM I have an "arrangement" with my CC (former SM of the troop) 1) I will do nothing to influence the decisions, visions, insights and goals of the troop committee. Instead I will support him and champion his efforts every step of the way. 2) He will do nothing to influence the decisions, visions, insights and goals of the SM. Instead he will support him and champion his efforts every step of the way. With that being said, I am the #1 supporter of boy-led, patrol-method scouting and he is as well. With that common goal between the two of us, we support those dynamics among the boys. We do nothing to direct, influence, or control the workings of the patrols within the troop. If I have a problem with any adult, my CC steps up and takes over, freeing me to focus my attention back on the boys. If he has a problem with an adult, I give him 100% support, freeing him to focus his attention on the overall operation of the unit. Unlike LisaBob, I have 4 other WB trained adult leaders and the CC has hand-picked other leaders after giving full explanation of what the SM is attempting to do with the boys. I have a 5th adult (former SM of a different troop) who is chomping at the bit to take WB the next time it is offered in the area. If they are uncomfortable with assisting the SM assist the boys, then they are asked not to turn in an adult leader application. Because of this approach we offer a significant alternative to the way this troop was run a couple of years ago and another troop in the area that does a fine job with an adult-led program. Everyone is on the same page right down to the wording of every comment made to any boy in the troop. An adult must always preface any comment he makes to the boy leadership with "Might I suggest...". After that he/she cannot make any other comments. If an adult says "You will do...", "I think you should..." or any other similar type statements, the boy leader must respond with the phrase, "With all due respect to your suggestion, I will take it under advisement but I am responsible for making this decision. Thank you for your comment." 18 months ago we had 5 boys in the troop, I'm hoping that by the end of this month to have close to 40-50 boys in the program. Parents who cannot allow for their boys to be in this kind of leadership opportunity are encouraged to enroll their boys in the other troop where the traditional adult supervision/leadership is how they generally operate when they cross over their sons from Webelos. This might be a grand experiment, but for sure it really involves the boys and they have total ownership of the program. All adults and scout officers (TOC) have to be on the same page! If not it's up to the adults in the troop to get them there. As SM I am the only hands-on adult leader working with the boys. My ASM's are there to support the boys in specific areas, but the ultimate decision on any and all programming is in the hands of the Patrol Leadership. If we as an adult cadre for the boys are not constantly working to develop independent patrol leadership, we are not following the program outlined by the CC and Committee. Stosh

What totally amazes me with this whole system is how adults are viewing the situation as even remotely boy-led. What LisaBob points out (as well as some of the responses support) indicate that this adult-led patrol is the core of the problem and much of the advise given on the forum deals only with the symptoms and not the problem. What amazes me is the insight LisaBob makes at the end! It hits it dead-on, identifies the problems, offers and proposes a solution The son is frustrated, envisions quitting, knows the adults interfere, and so what's the point of a venture patrol or even a troop? I totally agree with the boys on this one, they are 100% correct and the adults will eventually insure that the boys won't be able to do anything about it. 6 adults for 8 boys on a patrol activity? especially a venture patrol activity? Unbelievable!!! Before those 14 people got in the car I would have wagered big money things wouldn't work out! 4 parents? Get real! Patrol Advisor!!? The deck is so loaded against these boys it's an unbelievable embarrassment. But it gets better, 1 or 2 boys can be handfuls! So now the adults can justify their need to be along and interfering. The boys lived up to their reputation? Sure, it's still a world of adults telling them what to do. If left alone, boys in their own groupings behave differently! The boys were frustrated throughout the entire activity because of the adults, parents hovered, PL tried to step up to the plate and take the reins and was shot down by the adults. The answer to the solution is simply quit being an adult-led program. There are so many adult-led clues in this one paragraph it is unbelievable. What LisaBob needs to do is sit down and explain to their son that although the words coming out of the scout leaders' mouthes say boy-led, there isn't one ounce of truth to it. Once he realizes this he will automatically become less frustrated. Explain to him that having a venture patrol, having leadership positions, etc. are just puppet positions through whom the adults, including stray parents, can run the show. DO NOT be surprised to find that older as time progresses boys in this situation will seek other more enjoyable activities that are conducive to their interests probably outside of scouting. Ever wonder why the boys want to do the computer thingy? Because adults aren't involved. Advise him to get his Eagle asap so that he won't miss out on that. He's never going to get a chance to use that rank until he becomes a SM as an adult. Obvious clues that this is an adult-led program: 1) 8:6 ratio of boys to adults 2) Majority of adults were hovering parents 3) Venture patrol advisor (as if the boys can't do it without adult help) 4) The setup was "typical". 5) Boys were immediately frustrated (expectations were false) 6) 1 - 2 boys are handfuls so it justifies the adult presence 7) Adults held the boys back by the adult pace, thus the boys' leadership was immediately challenged. 8) Leadership was totally usurped: Told what to do by the adults 9) Boys didn't meet adult standards of camp cleanliness 10) Hovering parents were allowed to take over the program as they saw fit 11) Patrol leader objected by was silenced by the entire adult leadership. 12) Adults made it clear who was really running the show 13) Adults explained these boys were too immature and needed to be told what to do. 14) No chicken/egg thing here, it's all 100% adult-led right from the start. 15) Even the explanation starts from the adult perspective 16) the boys are frustrated and want to quit (and I, 100%, don't blame them! I eventually did!!!) 17) There is no trust being conveyed to the boys by any of the adults 18) Venture patrol is not a venture patrol, just a patrol of older boys that do things that adults can run 19) One does not "get through to the adults" at this point. This is an adult-led program. 20) Youth leadership is not seen in the troop or the venture patrol because it doesn't exist! This is why after 13 years with my previous troop, I personally had to leave. I saw this scenario being acted out over and over again, boys leaving, and adults making excuses as to the boys' weren't mature enough to stick it out. Sorry I don't buy this program one iota. Let's look at this from a boy-led perspective. 1) the adults should not have been there in the first place. 2) ...? Hmmm, I guess that sums it up pretty well. Take the adults out of the matrix and none of the things that LisaBob mentioned would have been a problem. This troop and patrol must first realize that their problem is not the kids, but the adults! Until that happens, nothing is going to change. I tried for 13 years to make changes, it doesn't work if you're an adult, it truly isn't going to work if your a kid! It's time for the adults to quit justifying their interference and start working seriously on a boy-led program before it's too late for these boys. Stosh

When I started the boys and I agreed on only three rules that must be followed. 1) Safety first 2) Look and act like a Scout 3) Have fun Since then the emphasis has been as a full-uniformed troop and the boys themselves enforce it. The above rules are the only time an adult can step into the programming of the boys. We as adults only really enforce #1. #2 is just in case there may be some sort of major behavioral problem. #3 is for the kid that is having tough go of it (homesick, picked on, etc.) where an adult can step in and work with him. The boys have picked up on #2 and have promoted full-uniform. As far as uniforms are concerned, each patrol has a "quick inspection" before falling into rank for flag for example. Otherwise they stand in the back with the adults and others who are not in full-uniform. This places the decision on the boy as to where he wishes to be. If he is in uniform, he's with the patrol, if not, he's with the civilians. That quick little inspection is normally where the shirt tails get tucked in, neckers adjusted, and buttons buttoned. This little inspection is also applied before the scout gets into a vehicle for a trip, and any other time the PL decides the uniform must look "nice". I have found that the boy who leaves himself out of the patrol activities will quickly figure out how to get in with their "good graces". The boy is not punished but constantly encouraged to get with the program and quit missing out on things. As mentioned by others peer pressure always is more effective than adult rules. Stosh

If I'm not mistake, (I have been on occasion), the original uniform of the BSA was rather identical to the US Army uniform with BSA logo & buttons on it. The source of the uniforms was easily accessible and there were companies out there that were already making them, keeping the cost for the boys down. I know the leggings were different than the US Army wraps, but for the most part it looks rather interchangable. Just be thankful that one doesn't have to buy the full uniform as they did back then when it consisted of campaign hat, shirt, tunic, pants, leggings and shoes. One would have a lot less boys in the program if the boys had to pay as much as they do to buy hockey uniforms or show choir costumes. My Venturing boys have to spend around $1500 for all the equipment they need to be in the program. Stosh

I've got a list of those getting gifts this Valentine's Day that reads like Santa's list. I'm just finishing up who's naughty and nice, and I'll be good to go. ;^) Stosh

I would think that the processes by which a troop "signs off" on a requirement is up to the "powers that be". In my troop PL's sign off on their patrol members they "pass" and then a report is turned into the ASM-Advancement. Any advancement by the PL's and ASPL is signed off by the SPL. The ASPL signs off for any TOC members (his virtual "patrol") and report it to the ASM-Advancement. I as SM sign off for the SPL and report to the ASM-Advancement Because we emphasize boy-led, it frees me up from a lot of paperwork to keep in contact with the boys directly. I have 24/7 access to the ASM-Advancement's database on the web, so I know where all the boys are supposed to be with their advancement. When it comes time for SM Conference, I have a record to which I can compare it to his book. If they don't jive up, the PL gets called into the SM Conference to resolve any differences. From my multiple contacts with the boy and the official SM Conference, I can make a recommendation to the CC who holds the BOR. They can accept or reject my recommendation after a thorough review of the situation with the boy. Because of the web software we use, much of the activities, POR, service project hours data is maintained by the system and will sign off the boy when he has completed those. These reports are published to the scout website on a monthly basis so the boy knows his status. He can ask the ASM-Advancement or SM any time he would like to know that information as well. This process seems to keep everything above board and no one really is a gatekeeper from the BOR without numerous checks and balances in place. Stosh

Our Venturing Crew used to get a lot of demand for flag ceremonies but it got to be more of a hassle than most. It would seem that there are a lot of people that want the boys to do the ceremony, but very few will "allow" real rifles as part of it. Most color guards that carry arms have Quaker guns. Paying $600 for a gun just to disable it is kinda dumb. It also takes away a bit when we can't do the 21-gun salute as well. Stosh