Stosh

One of the most difficult things for the SM (any any other adult leader) is to allow the boys the opportunity to fail. In our culture, we all basically want our boys to succeed, it looks good for them and even better for the adults if this is the case. However, the boys will never get an opportunity to have ownership of the success if all they ever do is ride along on the leadership of adults. Boys know that when they succeed because some adult is running the show it doesn't carry the same weight as if they gained the success on their own. I have watched boys quit scouting because they were running the show and yet weren't having any "fun" in the process. What they haven't yet figured out is that running the show is the fun. If they are bored, frustrated or whatever, it is because they are still in the learning curve. Once they clear a first small hurdle on their own, then things will begin to turn around for them. Until that happens, expect a lot of gut checks on the part of the adults. "Are you just going to stand by and let the boys miss an event they failed to plan for????" Yep, but it isn't easy to tell a parent that. Then point out the fact that out of the two troops in town, one adult-led and the other boy-led and with the Blue Golds completed the adult-led program picked up 17 new boys and the boy-led program only 7. Add to that the 8 boys who chose not to continue on in scouting, too. It's tough to believe in a boy-led program when it seems like the whole deck is stacked against you and you have chosen not to step in and take over and make everything look good. I second guess myself every time I put on my SM shirt and step back into the struggle. Stosh

17 went to the other troop this evening, but we picked up one more for our troop. We may also pick up a boy from the other troop whose parents are seriously considering removing him from the troop because he is being bullied and harassed by older boys in the troop. All in all we have a the potential for a full NSP for our troop so all is not lost except for the boys who chose not to continue on in scouting. I guess we all do recruiting differently, but when all was said and done this evening, 3 people came up afterwards and asked why the SM of our troop didn't hand out the neckerchief to the boy joining like the other troop did. All three thought it was really neat that the boys did it after I explained we are a boy-led program. It is obvious from the two Blue Golds how important the adult leadership in the WEBELOS program is for assisting in the transition. I'm not trying to pass on any responsibility on my part for welcoming/recruiting the boys into the troop, we never had them in the first place. By the way, one of the boys that "quit" last week is back in the program after another scout contacted him and had a chat. I'm still a believer that boy-led is alive and well although often incognito in our troop. So our numbers will stay in the area of 21 boys so that's still a respectable number of boys starting out this second year of our boy-led experiment. Stosh

Yep, the boys fell down on the job. Like the new-to-the-forum person True Believer, one can run the program boy-led, but if they don't do the work and the follow-through, then things aren't going to happen. This is one of those, fall flat on your face, and I'm going to have to drag them up, dust them off and hopefully they will have learned something from this fiasco. We do have two troops vying for boys and the other troop had no representation at the Blue Gold, so I don't know if this had any bearing on the situation or not. The SPL did line up a visit to their meeting a few months ago, they went, had a nice time, and yet did not do anything for follow-up. They invited them to a swim outing, no one showed up. They had them over for the Christmas party, 2 showed up. They had invited them to the Winter camp out (cabin) no one showed up. We have another Blue Gold this afternoon, but the den leader for that Webelos den (another 15 boys) is going to be a leader at the other troop. I'm sure he'll take all or most of those boys because he wants his boy to have all his friends with him. The SPL didn't do much except invite to the activities, but the boys didn't go and visit them. I'm hearing the boys are doing the recruiting "over the phone" kinda things, but I'm thinking that the boys aren't really putting a whole lot of stock into it. They are resting on their laurels thinking that with 30 boys available, they're going to get a bunch of boys walking through the door with no effort on their part. Well, that's not going to happen in today's world. The SPL notified them that unless they get their minimum 6 boys per patrol, their patrol will dissolve into thin air. There's a couple of PL's really worried now all of a sudden. I have warned and suggested, advised and suggested, and implied, and suggested and then I suggested again. The SPL reminded them of all that I had said, but in the long run, until it comes home to roost, it's not going to sink in. Instead of taking responsibility for their lack of effort, they are now saying they aren't having any fun anymore and want to quit. It should be an interesting Blue Gold this evening and an even more interesting meeting on Monday. Stosh

Blue Gold Banquet this evening 15 registered 2nd year Webelos 13 received Arrow of Light 5 crossed over into Boy Scouts Kinda makes ya wonder doesn't it? Stosh

Yep, the posters have the right answer. Stay out of it unless the boy is considering a solution to his problem would be to pull the fire-alarm. I'm sure the Chief will be there johnnie on the spot, but it may not look good in the Eagle project write-up that the boy had to sit in the jug for a night in oder to get the paint. :^) Stosh

There's a few options here. 1) If you have a all metal cover to the inner boiler pot then you can drop it in the bottom of the fry pan as a spacer to keep the bake goods from burning on the bottom. 2) put thin layer of sand on bottom of fry pan and bake in the boiler and/or metal cup. 3) put whole mess kit on small rocks so it doesn't sit on the coals 4) use 3-4 briquettes on the top and bottom. Until you figure out how the coals work on such a small oven, you will produce a lot of hockey pucks along the way. Remember, it's a small baking chamber and a lot of heat isn't necessary. Take your time and be patient. It's a dutch oven, not a microwave oven. Over all the years I have been doing it, it's more of an eyeball kinda thingy that comes with playing with it. Start with the tubes of biscuits one tube per boy and then start with one biscuit, let the boys play, then do another, let the boys play, I think there's 8 in the tube. By the time they play with all 8 biscuits, they should have a pretty good idea on how it works. Do the sausage and gravy in the boiler while you're playing. Couple of pork patties/links in the boiler, heat through, pour on a little gravy from a jar (on jar per patrol) and you have breakfast.... There's not enough individual survival cooking anymore it's all troop and/or patrol cooking even though one of the requirements is to cook for oneself, it's not an art form anymore. It used to be a staple in scouting when I was a kid. Now it's all utensil-less cooking which is rather primitive, makes a impressive demonstrations, but is NEVER used except for impressive demonstrations. With the dutch mess kit, it can be quite sophisticated. Nothing better than blueberry muffins while everyone else is knocking off hot-water oatmeal. Fresh baked cookies anyone? Not only that who says one can't do dutch oven cooking on a backpack outing? Dutch oven cooking is a style of cooking, not the cast iron container. If done right, a dutch oven can be made out of different sized tin cans, too. Put a #10 in the fire open side up, toss a tuna can in the bottom for a spacer, put your goodies on the tuna can (metal cup with muffin mix in it) and cover with another large can (smaller than a #10). Then toss coals on the inverted second can over the food, put your coals on the bottom (now the top) of this inner can. When it's done, brush the coals off the inner can, lift up and voila, biscuits in a cup! If you stop and think about it, one can also fry pan cook on the top of this homemade dutch oven, like maybe the sausage gravy that goes with the biscuit in the oven???? But of course! This homemade dutch works better than a mess kit, but the mess kit transports so much easier in the back country. There's not a lot of baking clearance in the mess kit, but it does work nicely anyway. Good cooking can be an excellent adventure for the boys that leaves a pleasant taste in their mouths. :^) Stosh

Good point, I missed it. The SM MUST do as much training for the adults as he does for the boys. All my ASM's are screened by the CC when they put in their application for leadership in the troop, especially those that will have direct contact (or lack of contact) with the boys. The first question he asks is their views on the patrol-method. If they are unaware of the concept, the next question is how much they are open to the training. The adults "sit in" on the TLT and GB patrol training so they get a thorough understanding of what the program is trying to accomplish. Once the adults are trained, then the parents come next. Open forums are held, especially when their son first joins, to inform them of what the troop program is trying to accomplish for their boy's development over the next few years. They can ask any and all questions and they are fielded by the CC and SM who chair-host the forum. If after the forum the parent is not comfortable with the setup, they can decide for themselves if they wish their boy to continue. I have never had anyone pull their son from the program because of the program. On the contrary, word of mouth goes around the community and often times our troop is sought out for their boys. I also go through many of the dynamics their boy may face and how as leaders we deal with it. Homesickness, bullying, etc. are all addressed in the forum and instructional information is given them as to how they can get their questions answered. For example, if they want to know when the next outing is, what to have their boy bring, etc. that gets addressed to the PL. If it is a bit more serious, i.e. bullying or harrassment, they can call the SPL or the SM/CC any time any day. If there be situations where an adult interferes in a patrol, the PL has an options. If he chooses he might want to address the issue with the SM or CC. I or the CC, then deal with the adult and how the boy perceives the problem. It is remarkable how quickly the adults come on board. We have all been in agreement that every comment to a PL is started out with: "May I suggest...." or "Have you ever thought about doing it...?" The only other comment a leader uses frequently is "Is there anything I can do to help?" Phrases like "I would like you to ..." or "You need to..." are forbidden. Any time a PL feels "pressured" by an adult he has the right to answer, "With all due respect...." without any repercussion. He's not allowed to fly off the handle or speak in disrespectful tones. All our boys are addressed by Mr. _________ as a sign of respect to them and their position in the troop. When I first started with this troop it was standard operating procedure to address the SM by his first name which the boys did. I always addressed them by title and last name and without any big deal the boys have followed suit. If respect is given, respect is returned. Just for fun about 6 months ago I started saluting the boys when I greet them, they do a sheephish salute, but things are changing. Just a little fun on my part to eventually demonstrate to the boys how to lead by example. Whenever I see an adult leader doing what I think is over-stepping his bounds with a PL or TOC member, I gently ask that person if I might have a word with them in private. This interrupts the "interference" he might be doing and allows the PL an opportunity to know that he's being "protected" without having to deal with interfering adults. Once we are out of ear-shot of the boy, I just remind the leader what we're trying to do with boy-led and is there anything I can do to help with what may have been a problem with the PL? About 99% of the time the adult agrees with the program and that's the end of the conversation. A couple of times I had misread the situation and so I apologized and called the PL over so that the adult and PL could continue on with their conversation. Respect regardless of age is key in maintaining the leadership in the hands of the boys. Stosh

Start small and start at the beginning. Make sure every event shows some progress no matter how small. We start with Tenderfoot requirement of learning a patrol flag and yell. I used BP's 8 boys to a patrol and suggested the boys divide themselves up into groups of 6-8 boys and form up their own patrol. That may take an entire troop meeting, but in the end each one of the boys have made their first leadership decisions. The next meeting have them decide however means they want to select their PL and APL. If this takes all meeting long, don't worry, they have now made their second leadership decisions. Each step is important! Never underestimate it, don't question it, don't even comment on it, it's their decision, they have decided and it's a good thing, trust that they made the right choice but be ready to pick them up, dust them off and set them on their way again when it isn't. Until that happens don't worry about it. The PL's are then trained to keep their boys fiercely segregated from the other patrols. They plan, learn, work and play together as a group under the guidance of their PL. The only other two people that carry flags (6' closet rod with hook in the end and bullet shaped pendant for a patrol flag, either hand made or purchased off of E-Bay.) are the SPL and ASPL who have flags with 3 or 2 1/2 green bars on them. That way at any given time the adults know where everyone is. The only time that the troop gathers is for flags and training, but then the boys always sit together as a patrol. Any friendly competition between patrols that will naturally develop on their own is to be encouraged. My Venturing Crew has to learn the Civil War manual of arms/drill in order to participate on the field. Every year we go back to square one and learn it all over as if everyone is new. This review is not a problem for the older boys because they eventually do all the training. ATTENTION TO DETAIL is vital and it applies to the patrols as well. At FIRST CALL from the SPL, the PL's pick a spot in the room, raise their flag and give their call to gather up their boys. Then they do a quick roll call and uniform inspection to make sure everyone is ready. At FALL IN the boys move as a patrol to their spot for the opening flags. All these motions are designed to have PL's gather up their people and get them ready in a routine everyone else is using (comfort in familiarity). This might be done at any time for any reason and the patrols can form the troop up in about 1-2 minutes in a rush. There's always a little competition going on as to who can get their boys collected up the quickest. As time goes on these friendly mini-competitions become more and more prevelent. Interference by adults is prohibited unless requested by the PL and then only for the duration of how long it takes to give help. The boys do all their own planning such as advancement, games, etc. and they determine on their own when they are going to be doing each of them. I notice all the time, no two patrols are doing the same thing at the same time. One may have the ropes out learning knots, another doing a game, still some others are reading their handbooks, etc. The SPL moves from patrol to patrol throughout the evening and will remain quiet unless addressed by the PL. If the PL doesn't need any help the SPL moves on to the next patrol. The SPL is responsible for evaluating the activities and making an occasional "suggestion" when he sees a PL struggling and not asking for help. The SPL is the #1 supportive role in the troop. He's there to help make the PL look good in front of his boys. At the end of the evening the PLC meets for a quick 5-minute After Action Review by the SPL to make sure they were all satified with their accomplishments. This little gathering is often times a way to brag up their patrol saying they did this or that. It often inspires other more sluggard patrols to get their act together, too. When the new Webelos boys come into the troop, take the very next meeting and start the TLT, Green Bar Patrol, training sessions. The first year this will probably have to be done by the SM, but after that it's done by the SPL/ASPL. Once they understand the full scope of what is trying to be done, then they are left to start implementing it in their small groups. If there is a NSP, the TG is responsible to reinforce in the boys that which was taught and to be their #1 cheerleader for all the neat things they can expect to plan out for themselves. If the troop gathers as a whole, the SPL becomes the master of ceremony for the situation. COH for example. At the end of the evening the patrols gather once again in their areas, and fall in for flags. If the PL is still busy with the PLC AAR, the APL can do this with the patrol flag. It's a good learning process for the PL's successor or a patrol of his own some day. Once flags are done and SM minute and last minute reminders about upcoming events are done, the SPL's last words are "Patrol Leaders, take charge of your patrols." They then move off from the flag line, any last minute instructions by the PL and then they are dismissed by the PL's. This is the routine my troop has developed and the boys like the continuity of it and they find comfort in knowing they are in the right place at the right time. For us the PL is the most senior of officers in the troop. Troop officers and adults support his work and leadership, they never direct the patrols in any fashion or manner unless it's a safety issue or the PL has requested it. Once the basics/foundations are established, then some leeway can be allowed as each patrol develops into its own identity. Once the boys realize they are pretty much on their own and there will be no outside influence (or interference), they will begin to figure out that they are the ones that are going to need to step up and make it happen. At first there will be a lot of waiting around for someone to come and help. Once that help becomes routine, the autonomy of the patrol will break down. The quicker they figure this out the quicker they will accept the patrol method and take charge of their own programming. Once these basics are mastered, then the next step is in developing patrol cooperation using the PLC as the communication contact point. Patrol method is accomplished with each patrol working/playing/learning as an independent group. It is polished and refined through the inter-patrol cooperation of the PL's in the PLC. From this model it is easy to see why the troop officers are not part of any patrol. The patrol QM shouldn't have to find/know where the Troop QM is if he's in another patrol somewhere. He's with the TOC group and that is marked with an ASPL flag and is visible from any place at any time. Stosh

I guess I don't wish to step down on a lower level to discuss this so I'll merely state that training can and does happen in many different forms. There's the book learning stuff, there's hands on artsy crafty kind of things, then there's experience that one learns by actually doing the job. I have mentioned I have all my boys trained in TLT, Green Bar Patrol and some of them have attended NYLT. So they got the book learning stuff and a little of the hands on stuff, but many times that doesn't get translated into the real world without experience. I have been hearing comments on the postings indicating BSA is teaching patrol method, but never being able to get it to take hold in the troops. Well, "all the book learnin' in the world ain't gonna cut it." Now that my boys have all graduated from just about all that BSA leadership training provides, it's time for them to graduate on to the college of hard knocks. If the boys aren't taking what they learn into the field then training is a waste of time and so is going out into the field. I can expound my insight into a ton of stuff for the boys, I can provide recipies and instructions until I'm blue in the face, but until he grabs onto the handle of the skillet he's not going to learn how to cook. I may be clueless on a few things, but real life isn't one of them and that's what I'm teaching my boys by letting them get out in the field and learn by doing. I don't expect any of my boys to figure it out the first time, but if I keep stepping in for more and more training of these kids, they'll never have the opportunity to actually learn. If all this training does is fill the boys with knowledge it is a total waste of time, until the boys translate that into functionality, one will never get such things as patrol method into their troops. No recipe ever put dinner on the table, the cook did. Once you've done all you can to train them, then you have to learn to trust them to apply that training without further interference. Yep, once we hit the field, it's coffee and campfires all the way, baby! If they need assistance, they always know where to find me that way. It's really a bummer trying to hunt down a SM who's off messing in the leadership of some other patrol. Stosh

This decision of your is 100% personal and needs to be made by the individual, but I'll add my "take" on it. What boys want and what boys need are two different things in many circumstances. Having the parent attend with them while they do their thing to improve themselves might be what they want, but what they may need is a troop leader with the skills to help him and his buddies in the scouting program. My suggestion would be to sit down with your son, explain all that you have indicated in your post and come to a consensus with his participation. I would think he would at least be receptive to the peer-to-peer conversation that allows both sides to express their wants and needs. I'm thinking that your son may in fact be your strongest supporter of your particpation in WB if he knows the whole story. Most kids aren't selfish enough to maintain a strong level just-for-me attitude when shown the whole picture. Of course this is all dependent on your son's maturity level as well. If he is still that clingy that he needs you there as compared to just a wants you there, then maybe WB will need to be postponed a while. Tough decision, but I would recommend a shared decision in this matter between just you and your son. Stosh

Dutch oven cooking is a staple with me since I was a kid. Unfortunately I didn't own a full-sized one until well into my adult years. However, that never stopped me from using my standard, cheap mess kit as a dutch oven. Ever since I baked my first bisquits in my mess kit, I've been hooked. It is a great way to start the boys out on the concept of baking at outings. I've always carried two mess kits, they're light and I use one for cooking and the other for eating and cleanup. Stosh

Dutch oven cooking is a staple with me since I was a kid. Unfortunately I didn't own a full-sized one until well into my adult years. However, that never stopped me from using my standard, cheap mess kit as a dutch oven. Ever since I baked my first bisquits in my mess kit, I've been hooked. It is a great way to start the boys out on the concept of baking at outings. I've always carried two mess kits, they're light and I use one for cooking and the other for eating and cleanup. Stosh

I don't think the patrol method is as foreign to the boys as it is to the adults. If one were to leave the boys alone to do their own thing, they would naturally form up their "groupings" and do things without adult intervention. We do it as adults and if one looks closely at kids this age, one can see it happening there too. However, when we try as adults to program this, it falls flat and we don't know why. The gentleman with the schedule... "The time management and planning is an issue we are working on, with some success. On our last outing, I asked the PLs to come up with an agenda similar to the one you drew up for the next day. We talked about how far we wanted to canoe, and backed up from there. It took a little while, but they finally figured out everyone needed to be up at 7:00 AM, with breakfast completed and heading to the canoes by 8:15 if we were going to make our destination." Obviously the adults are convincing themselves that they are having the kids lead when in fact they are setting the agenda and eventually the boys figure it out. This is following, not leading. As a kid on a Saturday, I was out the door bright and early with the "Be home for supper at 5:00!" ringing in my ears, I got my bike, rounded up all my buddies and we did things all day long, on our schedule, doing what we wanted to do. Fishing, camping, biking, building forts, swimming, etc. etc. We never had to plan out anything, but we all had a pretty good idea what was fun. Time management consisted of trying to figure out when 5:00 pm rolled around or it was going to be PBJ instead of supper at my house. Why direct the boys into time management? Once they miss an activity or two and miss out on the fun, they'll figure it out on their own. They don't have to be taught that missing fun isn't a good idea. But if the SM is standing there with a stopwatch, nagging at the boys to get to the fun, all it does is make like miserable for everyone both boy and adult. Leave them alone, these are not dumb kids, they have a brain, they like fun, and eventually without any adult's telling them anything, they'll figure out where the fun is and how to get there on time. I used to be up with my coffee made sitting around the campfire I've resurrected from the night before before any of my boys are up. Notice the word "used to be"? Well not any more. I let them sleep in a couple of times and when we ran out of daylight and the fun had hardly started, they figured it out that the earlier they get up, the more fun they can pack into the day. When the cook is the last one up, I don't yell at them, the boys do it. When someone hasn't done their dishes, he has to wash them before the meal. No big deal, just has to wait for the water to get hot and then wash them. Well the water is the last thing on the stove after the meal is cooked. Once or twice and the boy figures out that cold meals of what's left over after the rest of the patrol has had their shot at it isn't very much fun. We don't have that problem any more. Tents are a mess? I had one boy come to 4 patrol meetings without his shirt someone "stole" at winter camp. I suggested he start saving up for a new one. Well, he eventually dug to the bottom of his pack and voila! there was his uniform. Gee. What a surprise. The only comment he got from the SM was a "Nice shirt, is it new?" That was the end of that. He's had it on every meeting since. Boys figure things out. They may have to stumble around a bit, but they are trainable. Leave them alone and let them figure it out. He has patrol buddies to help him, this is a very natural process that doesn't need adult intervention to make work. BP called the patrols "gangs". Well let gang dynamics work. Obviously boys are figuring it out in the neighborhoods without adult intervention, the same works for Scouting. Stosh

There's always going to be some resistance to developing a patrol method, both from the adults as well as the boys. Boys want (like it was mentioned) the adults to do all the planning, paying, organizing and leadership and they want to take BP at his word, this is a game and we're here just for fun. If the adults don't come up with some fantastically entertaining program, then they aren't a successful troop. To take a troop and turn it into a patrol method unit doesn't happen quickly. It takes time, a long time. As has been pointed out, boys don't believe adults when they say they can run their own show. First of all, they don't want to run their own show, they want to be entertained and someone else run it. Teachers (adults) tell them what to do. Parents (adults) tell them what to do. Coaches (adults) tell them what to do. Now the SM (adult) tells them they can do what they want to do. Yeah, right! It takes a while to beat that hurdle, then you go through the crap activity phase where they pick junk that's not related to anything scouting. i.e. paint-ball.... Eventually the boys begin to realize that they can do some really good stuff once they realize the adults aren't going to yank their chain and haul them back in. This takes time for the boys to build trust in the adults and confidence in themselves. However, when that finally happens, then some good things will happen. Be patient. Stosh

FYI - Aluminum tabs are collected for Ronald McDonald House only. The other programs for the tabs are urban myths. Ronald McDonald House set this up special. Your boys are doing a fine job. Then what you do is take the cans that are left over, down to the recycling place, sell them off and take that money and add it to Ronald McDonald House contribution. One can gets double duty. Keep it in mind that the tabs alone (4,175 of them, the size of a gallon jug) will gather up $1.49 so the whole can is the best course of action with Ronald McDonald House. Ronald McDonald House just uses the tabs because it's easier to deal with than the whole can, they store better and aren't messy. Stosh

Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to high-jack the thread. I got lost between ad hoc patrols and menu purchasing. What we have done for food expenses is simple. The boys plan out the meals, do the shopping and pay for it with troop funds which they replace once they have collected the money from the patrol members. If they wish to have steak, baked potatoes, salad, and soda for dinner and it comes to $15/per member, that's the way it goes. If they want something that costs less (and is still nurishing) then that's fine too. The decisions are left up to the patrols. If the cost gets too high, the parents will regulate their boy's spending and the patrol will have to adjust for their members. The "bills" submitted to the troop vary from patrol to patrol because of their menus are all different. We emphasize THRIFTY when it comes to menu planning, but then we often use that to assist the boys the first time shopping when they hit the bacon section, to buy the $2 bacon instead of the $4 package. That's part of the learning process that goes along with the requirement. We haven't had a problem with this set up and when parents express concern about the costs, we relay that information to the PL of that boy's patrol. Every outing we go on, the fixed cost of the event is announced to the PL's at the PLC, $3 patch, $5 site registration, $? gas for the drivers, and then they have that information upon which they add the cost of food. The troop pays the total and then collects from the boys once they have the final tally for their patrol. As a teaching aid, every year I use the spring camporee as an example where I come with my own food, having purchased all just for that occasion, and keep the food menu nurishing yet inexpensive. I try to keep the cost under $10 for the whole weekend, crackerbarrel, 2 breakfasts, 1 lunch and 1 supper. Then I compare my menus with the boys and explain that they could have had more and better meals using the power of bulk buying for the patrol. This process goes well every year helping the boys keep the costs down. Stosh

As a caring concerned friend of the boy's parents, they should be told and then the issue is closed. I, as a parent would want to know if it was my kid, but then I may be in the minority on this issue. It's a parent's issue, it's up to them what they want to do, but they need to have the information to make an informed decision. Stosh

May I also add, that when it comes to the adults AND troop officer leadership (SPL, ASPL, TG, QM, etc.) they lead by supporting the PL's. My only instruction to all of these people is to do what's necessary to make the PL's "look good" in front of their boys. If they need help with anything, roll up your sleeves and pitch in. If it's a positive assistance, make it totally public. If it's a negative assistance (i.e., discipline, correction, etc.) then make it privately with the PL only. Contact with a patrol member is not the job of any adult or TOC member (please don't cherry-pick that comment out of context), they always work through and with the PL. These boys "belong" to their patrol under the guidance, leadership and authority of their PL. Keep out of the way of his leadership unless it's an issue of safety, G2SS, or some BSA policy enforcement. Then any actions taken by an adult and/or TOC scout is followed up with a contact to his PL. For example if someone was messing around with a knife, address the issue and report what you did to his PL. If two boys are fighting, one from two different patrols, address the issue and then notify both their PL's. I always notify the PL's when I do a SM Conference for example. Do I have to do this? No, but as a courtesy to the authority of the PL, it's how I have chosen to reinforce his leadership. This process constantly reenforces/supports the PL's position in his patrol in the eyes of the patrol members. If a PL is responsible for taking care of his boys, make sure he's #1 in the loop of communication or one will usurp his authority in front of the boys. I had a situation last summer at summer camp. One patrol lost many of the older boys and a couple more through moving out of the area. They had two boys left and were offered an opportunity to dissolve the patrol and join up with others, they decided to stay together and pick up Webelos at the next Blue Gold. Then the day before camp, one of the boys broke his ankle. That left one boy, a Webelos boy in the patrol. He came, he camped, did his own cooking throughout the week, attended all the BrownSea classes, earned to merit badges. He knew it wasn't the best setup, missed his buddy, but the TG hung with him and "buddied up" with him for safety reasons. Did I make him join up with some other patrol for a week? Nope, HE decided to be his own patrol in spite of all the difficulty he faced. He's not the PL of the patrol, but he's so fired up about getting back to camp with is PL buddy and 6 new Webelos boys it's unbelievable. He's DC of a Wolf Den and I'm thinking he's going to cultivate those Cubbies throughout his scouting career and make his patrol one of the best in the long run. Leadership opportunities often times look like crisis in the beginning, but if left alone from outsiders can provide some good training for the boys. Until they ask for help, leave them alone to work it out. Stosh

yes and yes

Thanks, that's helpful Stosh

Jambo? Age requirements? signup is by individuals, not patrols. Jambo is not a patrol activity for any troop anywhere. If two contingents from a council are going, there is not even a guarantee the boys from a single troop are going to stay together, so that example is not valid. Philmont? Age requirements are placed by Philmont, maybe the patrol should consider going when all the members are of the proper age. Having a Star Ranked PL of the NSP take the boys to Philmont is kinda dumb. If the boys in the patrol are thinking as a group, they should be thinking in terms of what activities are relevant to their needs, interests, goals in scouting. Obviously NSP and venture Patrols think along different lines and to lump them together and say we operate as a troop does a great disservice to both patrols. In a boy-led, patrol-method program, where the boys are all making their own decisions, both personally as well as a group leader, if the opportunity for Philmont is this summer, the Star-ranked PL of the NSP could turn the PL reins over to another scout and he would continue on as TG for the NSP, training the new PL and be eligible for the Philmont contingent. Again, if people only think of the limits and not the possibilities, there's going to be a lot of missed opportunities for a lot of boys along the way. Maybe when the Star-ranked TG returns from Philmont he'll be able to return to the patrol and work at getting all his NSP buddies up to first class so that in a year or two they too can go. What better cheerleader than someone who's been there? Stosh

LisaBob, please indulge me a few minutes... I would like to take your comments and intersperse what I hear when I see what is written, maybe it will give insight into how I think. I do NOT wish to judge how you are doing your program or how you perceive your situation, nor do I wish to imply there is something wrong with the way you do it. Obviously it is working for your boys and in the end that's all that counts. If my comments offer insight into a different way, then it's just that: a different way of doing things. My comments/thoughts are in ()'s. "Of course, when the troop (how does a single patrol fit into this process? or doesn't it?) does its annual planning, the boys (as a whole group/troop, as a PLC or as patrols?) talk through the challenges of certain activities for a troop (or groupings of patrols) of our size. And there are some lovely camp sites that couldn't accommodate us (us as all the boys or us as adults, as a whole troop or as patrols, some patrols or all patrols?). So the boys (again, as a whole or as patrols) choose activities that fit with the needs of the troop (could these activities be broken down into smaller groups i.e. single patrols, maybe 2-3 patrols going at different times? i.e. 3 patrols one weekend, other three the next? Are all activities chosen to fit with the needs of the troop or can the activities be chosen to fit with the needs of the patrols too? especially the venture patrols who need a greater challenge than the NSP boys?) and we (adults or boys?) select campsites that work for us (again, whole troop or by patrols? or us meaning adults who need to be supervising all the boys together?). Although that means there are some places that we don't tend to go (could those sites be an option if not all patrols wished to attend? or if broken up to facilitate NSP expectations or challenge the venture patrols?), better that than frequently setting participation limits on ordinary camp outs (again maybe just one or two patrols would/could/should be involved. Maybe some of the venture patrols would think they're getting something special if they got to go to these smaller venues). Now if we got a lot bigger (say, 80-100 scouts)(10-12 patrols) then I can see where we'd need to take another look at the way we do things (such as breaking down into patrols, diversifying the responsibilities of leadership down to the boys in the patrols? letting the patrols decide?). But I seriously doubt that would happen (sharing leadership decisions with the boys is difficult, but not impossible, but it is kinda nice to have the boys stepping up and showing their leadership of their patrols and how they wish to fit into the troop as a whole). 60 boys (8-9 patrols) is a stretch for us and the troop (could this be viewed as doable if the numbers were broken down into patrols instead of the troop as a whole?) seems to function more effectively when we're between 40-50 boys (5-6 patrols, could more effectiveness be accomplished if the boys took more leadership responsibilies in how many more patrols you could take on?)." As I read through this comment from LisaBob, I hear in the back of my head limits being identified along the way. To me, I hear in the back of my head a challenge for more opportunities for more boys, especially if one were to share more of the leadership and decision making with the boys themselves as individual patrols rather than looking at a huge single group. Everyone always says that if the problem looks too big, break it down into smaller, more easily handled parts and deal with them one at a time. By the way, what I hear in the back of my head, you know, the voices... aren't always a bad thing. :^) Somehow I find it a lot easier to deal in my thought processes with 5 patrols than with 40 boys. Again, thanks LisaBob, and if I offended, my sincere apologies, it wasn't meant to offend. I hope that if my comments were constructive it might offer some new possibilities for your boys to consider. Stosh

My apologies for not making myself understandable. It sounds right to me, but if that's not making sense to you, I'm not communicating. Sorry. If I have 5 patrols in my troop for example. The two older patrols want to do BWCA, each patrol is responsible for getting their patrol to the event. The PLC can help facilitate any communication between the two patrols, but with that few of numbers the two PL's just hash it out between the two of them. Permits are limited to more than the number in the patrol so there's no problem there. This I see as a patrol organized event. Suppose out of the 5 patrols all five want in on the trip. The dynamics are the same except maybe more assistance from the PLC is needed to coordinate 5 PL's instead of just 2. No problem. On the other hand, a troop is going to go to the BWCA. All the boys are invited, the adults take over the organization, realize the limits, apply for the correct number of permits allowable, organize which boys/adults get assigned to each permit based on older boys helping younger boys, 2 adults on each permit, etc. etc. Notice how the word patrol can be completely omitted from the discussion? Notice how the leadership responsibilities of a big trip are shifted off the boys and onto the adults? Notice how if even there are patrols, with 8 boys and 2 adults, there's no way a full patrol with adult leadership will fit into the 9 person crew permit? These kinds of dynamics are what I would define as a troop method approach to the activity. Even if the process was adult-led patrol-method, very quickly in the discussion, there would be limits placed on the patrols simply because the 8/2 ratio is beyond the 9 person crew. Some of the patrols would need to be broken up to make it work. If the patrols were indepentently operating 300' apart, there is no way troop organizational structure is going to be able to coordinate any semblence of control. The patrols 300' apart need a certain amount of autonomy just to function. This is why the patrol-method is necessary in a situation like this. To add to this, no it wouldn't be a troop activity because maybe not all the patrols have chosen to go to the activity. Maybe the venture patrol is off somewhere else that weekend doing their own hike. A troop-method unit would not have allowed that to happen, the PLC said we're going to the camporee and all patrols have to attend the camporee or else because that's what the PLC decided. Such mandates cripple a true patrol-method operation and encourage the older scouts who don't want to go to their umpteenth camporee to find something more exciting to do. If it's not cars or girls, it may in fact be a hike or a primitive campout in a national forest somewhere. Patrol method allows for this possibility, troop method does not. "Our troop creates a temporary crew or patrol for each special activity like going to Philmont, Canada or snow skiing." This happens when patrols don't organize their own independent activities. This is how troop-method units operate. The patrols are broken up for convenience sake. If the patrols were organizing their own activity this wouldn't happen. If 3 older boy patrols want to go to high adventure, they should all organize the event for themselves, the organizational leadership stays in the patrols even for special activities. I'm all in favor of making all patrols that have achieved first class for all their members be designated a venture patrol. This insures a high level of leadership, responsibility, organization and independence for the patrol, along with the perks that go along with that maturity. If all the boys are bonded together, then which is more productive, peer-pressure of getting their buddies up to snuff in the patrol for the super activities, or skimming off the cream of the crop scouts and putting them in a super-activity patrol leaving their patrolmates in the dust? I find teamwork and loyalty to buddies takes a hit everytime that happens. Nope, I'm all in favor of promoting patrol loyalties over anything else. What's the incentive to help each other out if some get perks and others get left behind? We need to go to BWCA, but Johnnie isn't first class, have swimming, first aid and canoeing MB's. As part of our planning, we need to get Johnnie ready for the trip besides caughing up $200 to go. Taking care of each other is the basis for good patrol dynamics of teamwork and loyalty. I surely don't think leaving Johnnie behind is a good way to promote the patrol-method or Scouting principle for that matter. Planning on a troop level may in fact be an overwhelming task once the numbers get over 50. But planning on the patrol level is always within the skill level of any good PL. For me troop "planning" is merely writing down on a calendar what each patrol has decided it wants to do and through the PLC coordinate those activities to get the best bang out of the buck. If you have 80 boys (10 patrols) 5 want to go to BWCA and 5 want to go to summer camp, it would be good for the PLC to suggest the 5 BWCA patrols go at the same time, transportation/adult supervision if necessary and same for the 5 patrols going to summer camp. At least 4-6 adults are going to be needed to cover both activities. Do the patrols have that commitment from the resources available or are they going to need to go back and rework their agendas? Ok add to that one patrol (oldest boys, venture patrol) decide they're going to bike-hike across the state, no adults needed. They wouldn't need adult resources, and they wouldn't need to coordinate their activity with any other patrol either. Except for adults clearing their summer schedules where to they fit into any of these processes? Stosh

Maybe it's time for the CM and SM to sit down and hash out what the cross-over is supposed to be. Is it a Cub Scout exit program or a Boy Scout entrance program? Or both? The packs that I deal with split the program. The CM takes the Webelos scarf off the boy, hands it to the parent and says farewell to the boy on his scouting journey. The "change" occurs half-way across the bridge. Once he reaches the other side, he is welcomed by the troop he chooses, usually there are two to pick from. His third choice is to go back and sit with his parents and not join any troop. As he leaves the end of the bridge, the boy performs his first and maybe only leadership decision in Boy Scouts. "The opportunity is right there for you to choose, it's up to you." The Boy Scout part of the program occurs only after the boy makes his choice and moves toward the troop of his choice, then either the SM or in our case PL/SPL takes over with the troop ritual of placing scarf on the boy, etc. Stosh

Patrol membership runs 6-8 boys. This number is, in the boys' estimation, the most effective. Less than 6 the patrol is too small to cover all the bases and over 8 the numbers get to be too much for a PL to handle and keep track of. There's a reason by BP suggested 8 in a patrol, he knew what he was doing even 100 years ago. The boys decided on patrol sizes after taking leadership training. Our program is patrol oriented (patrol-method), so activities that limit numbers is not an issue because size limits seldom are less than the membership of the patrol. If the whole troop (troop-method) is doing an activity and there's 40 boys going, they aren't going to fit into a limit of 8-9 people. However, if the patrol method is used, each patrol fits nicely into the limits. It's just simple math. Like my daddy used to say, "You can't cram 10# of crap in a 5# bag." If one wishes to do BWCA, get a permit for each patrol...end of discussion, life goes on. BWCA is an excellent opportunity for patrol-method scouting. Adults on one permit, boys on another. There are plenty of places in BWCA where campsites are relatively close, where a whistle could alert the adults nearby of a serious problem. Yes, in my near-perfect world we have no problems with transportation to and from events for the patrols. We have plenty of adults ready to give rides anywhere they wish to go. If the boys need help getting transportation together, that's what the adult leaders do, they assist the boys with solutions they are having difficulty working around. Boys that do independent activities are required to leave an itinerary with at least 2 adults/parents so everyone is on the same page, (basic scout safety, nothing to do with patrol-method.) None of my boys have ever not been able to go to an activity they have planned because of transportation problems. Parents that don't want to do the hike, but give rides can catch a hotel room, keep the cell phone and itinerary handy and relax while the boys go hiking. Too often we hear the boys can't do an activity without adults and then every excuse expressed under the sun to keep the boys from becoming independent. I would think that the adults in the BSA program would be trying to devise any and every effort around assisting the boys to be independent instead of creating reasons why they can't. Boys tire quickly of the can't-do attitude of adults, especially after they have been promised a can-do attitude when recruited. By the way, after 18 months we finally had to say NO to a patrol. A PL approached me asking for patrol permission to go paint-balling. My ASPL interruped the conversation before I could answer by saying BSA prohibits it. He did say that he, himself, was big into paint-balling and if their parents would like to work it out amongst themselves they could work out a non-BSA patrol activity for the boys and he would go along for fun. Never underestimate the leadership skills of your boys, but then again, never crimp their efforts with one's own prejudices or likes/dislikes either. Stosh