Stosh

There's a ton of stuff one can do to make the outings more challenging. 1) Survival weekend, minimal equipment, blanket, tarp, messkit, food, clothing and go. Learn to make snares, fish with manmade equipment, etc. 2) Historical weeeknd - do a Lewis/Clark trip, using historical equipment. Sleep in a leanto under the canoe... Look at the 1911 edition reprint for making equipment. No modern equipment. 3) Mode of travel, bikes, hikes, canoe don't cost anything to do. 4) Wilderness camping, hike to a game preserve and camp there if allowed. 5) Winter camp 6) Sandbar camp if near a river 7) Make kayaks and use them for traveling/camping People use the tried and true trips because they don't think outside the box. OA ordeal allowed the boys an experience that was very different, repeat it for all the boys. Making equipment for an outing makes the preparation just as much fun as the outing itself. Stosh

EMS supply catalogs have plenty of options, but for the most part they are nothing more than plastic tackle boxes with larger compartments. They hold supplies specifically for medical equipment rather than fishing tackle. for the past 20 years I have used an old metal tool box but it is not water tight because it is always stored in the car trunk. I would suggest using a tackle box and when doing water sports have a waterproof bag to put it in when on the water. Keep it in mind that one doesn't have to store a lot of stuff in it. Bandaids and sterile bandages are about all you need. Most of these things can be stored in ziplock bags in a non-waterproof carrier. If you have specific needs such as epi-pens, glucose, etc. these too will fit in ziplock bags as well. A good pair of EMS scissors is always a necessity in case a boy gets tangled in rope, etc. in a water accident. For the most part, I can't figure out why you couldn't ziplock the medical supplies and use the box you already have. Unless it is damaged, it shouldn't be any different than a waterproof box. In an emergency it takes no more time to tear a ziplock bag open than it does to remove the paper. Don't put multiple bandages in a ziplock, one application per bag. Stosh

Cup your hands around it and say "Here, Birdie, Birdie, Birdie." :^D Stosh

Obviously not all rules fit nicely into each specific situation one comes across. I would think that the SE of the council is the go-to person for what one can expect for some clarification. When that doesn't work, the SE contacts the national office for further clarification. After all the i's are dotted and t's crossed and one gets national approval, I assume it's a go for the boys. As far as the SM is concerned, it is the #1 reason why I'm now a SM myself in a different troop. In our council, tour permits are necessary where travel to an event outside of council is required. This has been their interpretation of the policy for the past 20 years and until there be a change in such policy everyone assumes along the same lines. I'm sure the Tiger cubs DL doesn't do a tour permit every time they visit the local post office, museum or airport. The council camp used to require a local permit every time anyone was at an event regardless of who drove. They dropped that policy when it became impossible to enforce. I have boys that live closer to the camp than they do to our meeting place. Now all we have to provide is a list of who's attending. If I needed a permit for my Venturing Crew it would require one every time we met anywhere because the CO doesn't provide a meeting place. It's an arrangement that we have had for the past 10+ years. It works for our situation but 3-4 tour permits a month would be a waste of time as far as our council is concerned. In this day and age, my DE knows that a simple quick phone call can locate the crew any time there's a problem. If the council required paperwork for the sake of paperwork, we would comply, but they have made it known that that is not necessary. Stosh

But of course, anyone reading my posts would have picked up on the amount of council involvement in the process. Many of the things back then were in the infancy stage of G2SS and because of dialog I had with the council many of the things I worked in and around with council permission were special circumstances that needed council interpretation because we didn't have G2SS back then. ...and no, I don't need to read for myself your references, I am fully aware of what G2SS says, I've read it many times over the past 20 years. Prior to G2SS, Safe Swim, Safety Afloat, etc. didn't apply, but getting training in all of these things are easily available today, whether the Tour Permit asks for them or not. At the time I was Nationally Registered Emergency Medical Technician, State Certified Emergency Rescue Technician and an American Heart Association CPR instructor, so I was covered with CPR certification. I wasn't at the time, but I was once certified as an American Red Cross Lifeguard so I was fairly comfortable with taking novices out on calm water for a quarter mile paddle with their dads. I was registered as WDL and ASM in the scouting program, trained in Cub Scouting, Webelos, Webelos Outdoor (council instructor), Scoutmaster Fundamentals (served on staff as well as SM) and Woodbadge. I've also had 54 years of camping experience, including time in the scout program as a youth. So I didn't have a problem discussing this with the council to get approval on those terms. I was also well versed in state law as to PDF's and watercraft safety. I am extremely proficient in whitewater canoeing and kayaking as well. So I took my boys to the extreme for their age and maturity and challenged their abilities a bit. Know your audience and know your limits. "The BSA deliberately pointed out this applied to Webelos." Okay, if two adults were to take the boys is different than each boy going with his dad. Does the rules apply equally? If I had 10 boys and only two adults I would have planned a different outing. I was lucky getting all the parents on-board for the event. "backyard camping. Do you think it is a good idea to require BALOO training for DLs to take their Den camping? That is one of the questions on the Tour Permit - who in the group is BALOO trained. If you were the unit leader of a Pack, would you require a DL to complete BALOO before he took his den camping in his backyard?" Sure, why not. What's training have to do with a tour permit check-box? I believe that all adults working with the boys at any age be trained regardless of what the tour permit says. Just because parents drive to an event doesn't absolve anyone from being trained to provide the best quality program for the boys. Tour permits are just council CYA for insurance purposes anyway. Surely I can provide my driver's license number for the form, but it doesn't mean much if it hasn't been revoked a half dozen times for DUI prior to the event. It covers the expectations of the almighty tour permit, however, doesn't it? Parental permission slips mean nothing in a court of law, but they are still recommended so that the parents know where you are taking their children. Nothing more, nothing less. I took my boy scout troop on a whitewater outing last summer. They had never gone before. I've got all the credentials, but still I took along a second expert who had no boy scout experience at all, but on the water could paddle circles around me. Did that person have Safety Afloat certification? Nope, did he have Safe Swim certification? Nope. Did that person have 30+ years of white-water experience and knew what to do in an emergency when it really mattered? Yep. Works for me. What check-box do I fill out on the Tour Permit for that person? It's hard to believe that just because they have a piece of paper in their wallet qualifies them for anything. That certificate doesn't mean they have even sat in a canoe in the store! I want someone who can do the job and keep my boys safe. "Are you saying Safe Swim and Safety Afloat didn't apply to your trip, either?" If you inferred that you did it on your own. People on the forum can read whatever they wish into whatever is posted on the forum, especially if they are looking to prove their own agenda. I'm not sure Safe Swim/Safety Afloat were around back then, but if they were I picked up the training as soon as it was available. I would recommend, with it being easily available on-line, that all the parents that would go, should take the course, too. My Venturing crew does Civil War reenacting. BSA rules in G2SS that boys that shoot weapons must be on a range with a certified range instructor, they cannot have anyone stand in front of them, they cannot aim at another person, they cannot fire without proper eye and ear protection, etc. etc. etc., all of which cannot apply to my crew. Our safety standards for the crew go far beyond that of the reenacting community and each boy must have a Hunter's Safety card, and pass our annual proficiency test before they take the field each reenacting season. This was all worked out 10 years ago with national when the crew was set up. We are now in our 11th season of activity and no boy has ever been hurt. One must never make the mistake of relying on certifications, it is experience, maturity, knowledge/training and a desire to make a safe activity for the boys that will be one's only backup in a serious situation. Remember, I'm the one that quit teaching Webelos Outdoor Training because the council was going to allow certification for the participants even when they had never gone out into the woods and slept overnight on their own, let alone with a half dozen, wired up boys. Stosh

Under the Webelos Outdoor Training syllabus, it was considered optional to stay overnight. When the council insisted on the program going with optional, they had to find a different corps of teachers. What has happened since then, I haven't keep up with. None of us wanted to put our stamp of approval on leaders taking the boys out into the woods and camp who had never done it themselves. Stosh

LOL! Gotta love it. "Gotcha!" It would seem that some aren't happy unless they think they've found someone breaking the rules. Yes, alluding to your earlier post, this occurred prior to G2SS. Tour permit in town is not needed when there is no travel. Remember, each canoe had dad paddling the boy to the campsite. This counts as much as dad driving the boy to a den meeting. And to the hiking event, the parents drove them to the parking lot, we walked from there, including the dads, by the way. G2SS is also vague on how many hours is "a few". Oh, and permission slips are not necessary if dad is present. Remember, as it was disclosed in an earlier post, this had all the "blessings" of the local Council. If I said the council added its blessings it is because a lot of dialogue with them went into the planning stages of the event, they knew all the dynamics of what was happening and they didn't have a problem with any of it. Oh, and remember this is not a bunch of Tigers heading out into the woods either for a trip to the museum, these were Webelos II's. There's a bit of a difference here. When G2SS is talking Cub Scouts, they have to take into consideration the lowest common denominator, the Tigers. Surely one doesn't expect a WDL to treat his boys like Tigers. It wasn't very much longer after that event (maybe 4 months) I took these boys white-water canoeing, but by then they had signed Boy Scout registration forms and we had a tour permit because we had to travel quite a ways to get to the river. I think they all enjoyed the white-water canoeing more than having dad paddle them out to the island. But at the time they thought it was great. The council viewed these outings as if a SM took a group of new scouts out for the first time with all of their parents and did a milk-run outing. The only difference was a couple of months, not a couple of years. If these were a bunch of screw-up boys that couldn't stay on task for 5 minutes I wouldn't consider it, but these boys were ready and their parents were 100% backing the outing including attending with their boy. I'm still thinking that if a den wants to sleep out in someone's backyard they don't need a tour permit. Feel free to explain to me the difference. It would also be wise to remember that people can't get away with anything anymore and sooner or later one's going to get caught. Well after 20+ years of scouting I haven't gotten caught. It's probably because if one abides by the rules there's nothing to get caught about. Nice try, but you'll need to try harder next time. :^D Stosh :^D

G2SS doesn't apply if the only people in the canoe is the boy and his dad. A tour permit is not required if the outing is within the city limits of the city in which the troop is located. This was all checked out and was above board with the blessings of the council even if they were not involved with it. Stosh

Many years ago when I was a WDL (doing my WB ticket). I got involved with teaching the Webelos Outdoor Training for the council which I continued on for many years. The number one problem the leaders had was experience. I found that many of those that signed up for the course had never camped before and had become WDL's by default. The challenge for them was their ability to take the next step up to taking the boys camping. The majority of trainees I taught had little or no outdoor experience. They either stopped at WalMart on the way to camp and picked up a tent or they were borrowing someone else's sleeping bag for the weekend training. One or two even showed up with suitcases for their gear. My job was, how do I get these people trained well enough to take boys out into the woods when they themselves have never done it? I stopped training when the council decided they could get the training without having to spend the night sleeping in a tent. This actual sleeping in the woods was the #1 barrier for WDL's not getting the outdoor training. I'm still in amazement as to how difficult it is to get BALOO trained personnel together to get the boys off the sofa and out into the woods. I find some of the culture shock that is associated with Webelos crossover boys is that they are intimidated by the thought that their non-camping parents/WDL's haven't properly inspired, let alone prepared these boys for the the outdoor adventures of Boy Scouting. Has any of this changed in the past 10 years? Stosh

The activity I described is just a den campout, not a council planned activity. While it looks very "high-adventure" to the boys, it's really just smoke and mirrors. Packing up a canoe and heading out? So what if it's only a quarter mile, it's a big thing to the boys. "Wilderness" camping? Yeah, right, the planes from the airport flew over a couple of times but with their own dug latrine, tents, and campfire, it might as well have been BWCA to these boys. Our backpack outing was less strenuous when we went down the local bike trail out into the National Wildlife Preserve and camped out on some high ground we found in the swamp. This again gave the illusion of being at "Philmont" for the boys. We actually only hiked about 2-3 miles from the parking lot. I was not creating BWCA or Philmont for these boys, but it gave them the idea of what to expect once they got into scouting. By the way, the 4 boys I mentioned in the previous post made it to both BWCA and Philmont before they got their Eagles. Stosh

When I was WDL, I spent a great amount of time preparing the boys for going camping. Most everything we did was oriented towards this goal. We did our pins the first year and they all had AOL by the end of Webelos I. The second year was just fun. The summer before joining Boy Scouts we did a Webelos "high adventure" trip. We canoed out to a deserted island and spent the weekend. Well, the canoe paddling was all of a quarter mile and the island was within sight of town, but we didn't dwell on it. They spent time swiming, playing with the canoes, set up camp, did all the camp chores including cooking and cleanup. I took along two veteran scouts to assist (they basically did nothing but watch over things in case the boys needed any help) Dads did go along, but had to camp in a different area but within earshot. The kids had a blast. Most of the complaints I received, especially from the SM who's troop these boys were going to eventually join, saying that the been-there-done-that affect would be detrimental to the new scouts. He felt I was taking away his thunder of train up these boys right. He felt the boys would be bored once they found out scouts was just more of the same. Well, 4 of the 8 Webelos boys eventually Eagled, so I'm not thinking it harmed them too badly. One of the boys actually mentioned this very outing in his comments to the people at the Eagle COH and how it inspired him to be where he was that day. Stosh

There's a difference between camp footwear and hiking footwear. I have hiking boots (double socks, extra pairs, Gold Bond, etc.) and I have a pair of slip-on canvas shoes for camp. This way I get rid of the double socks, change into dry socks and let my feet relax while in camp. The only thing I worry about in recommending camp shoes is to make sure they have sufficient soles to protect the foot in case one steps on something, ember, stake, sharp rock, etc. The extra weight of a second pair of camp shoes is worth it to me. On a 12 day Philmont trek, I and another boy were the only two that did not get any blisters. The other boy somehow mananaged without the second pair of shoes. Stosh

Our boys view the "replacements" a little differently. The "rule" is to maintain 6-8 boys per patrol. All the patrolss are permanent and when the new boys cross over, it means they have the opportunity to convince the new scouts to join in, if not just for survival sake. They realize that they cannot continue without the assistance of these new boys to fill their ranks. The boys know that if they cannot convince these new boys to join their patrol, their only recourse is to start merging patrols to acquire the minimum number to survive. The real kicker lies in the fact that if the new boys are not convinced that joining a veteran patrol is a good thing, they always have the opportunity to create their own NSP's. All cliquishness seems to miraculously disappears under these dynamics and the boys spend a lot of time grooming the new Webelos boys to make sure they have the numbers. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I'm thinking the red activity shirt and the adult jac jacket, berets too, need to go by the wayside, it's scaring the animals. Stosh

Somehow I'm led to believe that with the noise the average scout troop makes in the woods, no animal in it's right mind would ever get close enough to see that little red/white numeral on the scout's sleeve. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. But I have to admit that the scout store person did say one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. Stosh

The last time I was to BWCA, we "hosted" another troop that had never been on a high adventure trip before. We did the leg-work and got everything ready. We took 5 crews of 9 each. We had no guides, just planned out our own route and went. 9 days it was great. We did put together a t-shirt, hat, patch and necker for the event so we would all look the same regardless of troop numerals and council patches. We did employ an ad hoc patrol method for the trip so we could mix the boys from each troop into each crew. It was a great outing. I still wear the patch on my second uniform. Stosh

Any troop or patrol that needs to be trained to put together a menu, make a list and go shopping is probably not doing a very good job with the T-2-1 requirement training in that this information should be known by any FC scout. Stosh

My situation is a little different than most because the "rules" are defined by the event we attend. No electronics for anyone, boy or adult alike. People enforce these rules and if a boy has need to place a cell phone call he is expected to leave the event grounds to place the call. Our boys never have had a problem with the rules and we've never had to say anything to anyone. More often than not, we have more problems with adults than with the boys. Stosh

I know I'm supposed to be training up my boys to be independent and go without adults, but dang, if they come up with a great trip, I'm gonna be ticked if they don't invite me along! Stosh

We've gone several times, never used an outfitter. Sorry I can't make recommendations, unless you want my boys to plan it out for you... :^) Stosh

Mine too, but if these same parents are pushing their boys into other programs such as sports, there's not much BSA can do about it. For the most part these parents are not as much burned out as they have other plans for their boys and they are using burn-out as an excuse. There's not much cheering a soccer/football mom is going to be able to do if their son is off in the woods somewhere doing something more constructive with his life. Stosh

If the Scout program is boy-led, patrol-method, so what if the parents are burned out? Maybe then they won't be tempted to interfere in the program. As long as the boys don't burn out, I find no problem with less involvement by the parents in the troop, it might even be a good thing. Stosh

1 Venturing uniform, complete 1 Captain Civil War uniform USA 1 Lieutenant CW uniform USA 1 First Sgt. CW uniform USA 1 Sgt. CW uniform USA 1 Summer private CW uniform USA 1 Winter private CW uniform USA 1 Private generic CW uniform CSA 2 Private 26th NC CW uniform CSA 1 Officer hat 1 Forage hat 1 Slouch hat 1 Hardie Hat USA Includes all shoes, leather equipment, 1863 Enfield rifle-musket w/bayonet, 1850 officer sword, NCO sword, .44 Cal 1836 Colt revolver Navy model. 3 Boy Scout SS shirts 1 Boy Scout LS shirt 1 Vintage Boy Scout SS shirt 2 Boy Scout pants 2 Boy Scout shorts 4 Socks 3 Knee high socks 1 Campaign hat 1 Beret 1 Garrison hat 1 Expedition hat Now everyone knows why I'm no longer married.... :^) Stosh

We provide a menu form for the boys to fill out. It includes the recipe and food shopping list with amounts and what the boys paid for it. If one patrol finds bacon cheaper than the others, it is noted for the other patrols. The After Action Review (AAR) gives the boys an opportunity to learn to be more thrifty when they shop. It also gives the boys an opportunity to evaluate the nutritional value of the meals. Great tool and the boys are ok with it. However, filling out the form and keeping them is always a problem. Possibly the Troop Librarian could keep these in a folder/file so the boys can go back, find the ones that were winners and have 90% of their work already done for them when they head out shopping. They can then do some price comparisons so they can compete at getting a better bargain than the last patrol doing that menu. Stosh

After 10 years, we've never had a problem with electronics. They are forbidden by all the events we attend so it's a moot point. If the boys have cell phones, they leave them in their cars. :^) Stosh