Stosh

Buffalo, Sure First Aid is a simple competition, but why go for speed for the only measurable matrix? Did the boys tie a square knot in the sling? Did they pad the splints before they applied them? Did they check for circulation after they put the splint on? Did they send two for help before beginning? QUALITY is a measurable matrix, too. Then there are those that think outside the box for extra measurable points. Instead of scarves for the splint, someone pops up with duct tape and/or collects up everyone's belts. Did anyone record all the injuries before they started treating so the medical people will know what happened before they arrived? If the boy is showing a head injury, did the boys check him out for a possible neck injury as well? Check his ears for fluid? Maybe do an eye dialation check to see if it's more than just a cut. Did they ask him his name and check his consciousness, thought processes, or did they just tie a bandage on his head in 13 seconds? If one needs competitions with higher limits to the measurable matrix, even the simple skills we start out with in Scouting can be expanded to a greater degree for raising the bar for these competitions. Maybe a head bandage should also include a C-collar made from a towel as well. 13 seconds might be great bragging rights, but there's a lot more bragging for quality because it shows the scouts really know their stuff. That's worth bragging about. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I still vote for neither. I don't care whether or not a boy develops a managment style or knows his scout stuff. As an example: Last night I was teaching the NSP flag folding. The older boys were out working on Pioneering MB. About half way through the demonstration, the boys were working on folding. My Star scout who has Asberger's Syndrom came in stood a few feet away and stared for a few seconds and then without saying anything stepped up and started assisting the boy with the folds. I step back and watched and finally one of the new boys said, "Mr. B_______ is this what you meant when you talked about the Buddy System being leadership and taking care of others?" By the way, this boy couldn't do a POR for his Star rank and had to do a few special SM projects. Now he's OA Rep. Well, that's changed even more now, I know he can be a great leader. By the end of the meeting, the PL put him into APL of the NSP to assist him with the boys. Cream rises to the top regardless of what management style they adopt and regardless of what scout skills they may know. Just give me a boy that cares about others and I'll show you a great leader. This boy also made Student of the Month in his HS for January. This is the same boy who transfered over from an adult-led program because he was having all kinds of problems and not advancing. It was either transfer to my troop or quit. Any leadership style can be taught, but if the boy doesn't care, then all that teaching is wasted. Stosh

Why does the Peter Principle keep popping into my head? Leadership and management are not the same animal. If I'm lost, the only "leader" I want to see is the guy/gal who knows how to get out of the woods. I don't care what skills they may have, what knowledge they have, whether or not they can teach them, whether I'm happy, whether my self esteem is comforted, as long as they know how to get out of the woods, I'll follow them. Stosh

"Hey, ya wanna know why they don't allow pressure cans at scout camp? Let me show you!" "Does anyone know where the first aid kit is?" "Oh, Man, that's gotta hurt!" "I think that was his best shirt, too!" And my all time favorite: "Hey Mr. B______ come quick!" Stosh

Y do things always get screwed up around me? I gotta get a life.

Zippidy do dah! It's over with now!

Neither, there are other options that are more effective. Management style: PL - I have the knowledge and you do as I tell you and things will work just fine. ScoutCraft style: PL - I have the skills and I can teach you, but I don't necessarily know how to put it together for everyone's benefit. Stosh

Cooking is also a good competition. Orienteering works. You missed the obvious First Aid If you're near water, canoe races work as well as swimming competitions. Whittling competitions work as do lumberjack type of activities. Hanging a bear bag is a good ropes thingy. Canoe portaging races. Pick up a canoe, portage it 100 yards and put it back down. Could make it a patrol activity by having the others unpack the canoe, one/two pick it up and everyone carries all the items 100 yards where they repack the canoe. Chuckbox competition - (Kim's game) Look at a chuck box and have the boys make a list of what's missing. Could do the same for a First Aid kit or a hiker's pack. Stosh

I have always liked Kudu's 300' rule. I also need to remember that is a MINIMUM of 300'. I don't think this rule is as much as developing independence in the boys in as much as it keeps the adults where they belong. Stosh

One has to look up what "cherry picking" means in order to understand it. To ad hoc the patrols at an outing is cherry picking, to select elite scouts for special considerations over patrol dynamics is cherry picking and for the most part most of this cherry picking is done by adults. Thus it's a rather easy assumption to make that such dynamics are not all that beneficial to a boy-led and or patrol-method emphasis in a troop. Does that mean an older PL in a NSP can't go to Jamboree? Of course not, it means that for such an activity, the boys decide that in this situation things will be different. The new boys know they don't qualify. Does that mean any adult makes decisions, promotions, or plans for alternative outings on a regular basis has a long-term affect on the dynamics of the patrol method? Yep, it's cherry picking. Instead of the hypocracy of adult cherry picking, just open the option for a Venture Patrol and develop a program where specialty outings, us/them activities, and adult decisions are not a part. These types of things are very detrimental for any patrol method organization. One can't have it both ways. So what if it's a troop method program with ad hoc patrols? At least be honest about it and don't fool oneself into thinking its something else. Stosh

Add to that, one of my scouts achieved Student of the Month and recognition for it will be done at flags tomorrow. Success and leadership applied outside of Scouts is just as important as it is within. Stosh

dang I type slow.

d

I use the technique of "You're wasting my time". I constantly emphasize that the boys signed up to do scout stuff. If we aren't doing scout stuff, then we are wasting the boy's time. If they are jawjacking and not accomplishing their tasks, they are wasting their time and probably someone else's. When the flag ceremony doesn't start on time, the SPL is reminded that he is wasting the time of those who chose to be on time. While for some, it produces kids that are clock watchers, it also produces kids that constantly evaluate what it is they are doing. Is what we are doing accomplishing something or are we wasting time? Sleeping in? Is that wasting someone else's time? Is it effective? I have had the SPL run a flag ceremony with only one other scout. When the tardy boys showed up and saw that the flags were already in their stands, they assumed they had been forgotten from the last meeting. When they went to "get" them, they were gently reminded by the SPL that the flags were already done and we are now getting patrols together for their activities. When the even later boys showed up they gathered with their patrols wondering why they weren't moving for the flags, and the PL's reminded them that they had missed them and they were now working on patrol activities. This cascade effect had a positive impact on the boys because now they realize that in order to not waste their buddies time, they show up when they are supposed to. We have only an hour and a half each week to get a lot of scout stuff done, the more they waste time, the less that gets done and they miss out on things. Kinda like the real world. Scouting is a game with a purpose, purpose implies that the person is not simply there wasting time. Stosh

As a patrol-method champion, this is why one has a Venture Patrol and doesn't cherry pick top leadership out of the group to make it interesting for the older boys. As soon as the cherry-picking door gets open, it opens up all sorts of why can one individual go and the next doesn't. It's a personality, family crisis, etc. sort of thing that requires the SM to be judge and jury rather than letting the program work for itself. To rely on individuals and drawing distinctions between them will always eventually cause problems, as is why the thread was started. Cherry picking your best boys to get special treatment is viewed by all the outsiders as unfair, and a point of conflict for those sitting close on the fence. Without teamwork of the patrols, this problem will always arise in the troop. "The way a team plas as a whole determines its success. You may have the greatest bunch of individual stars in the world, but if they don't play together, the club won't be worth a dime." - Babe Ruth And of course everyone knows Benjamin Franklin's attitude towards individualims. If one designs the program around winner/loser dynamics, that means there's always those that are going to have to be losers. Stosh

I put in 13 years with a troop under these circumstances and finally gave up. I guess the adage: "You can't fight city hall." applies here. I am now in a different troop and loving every minute of it. I wish I had made the move years earlier. Stosh

From your last comments, LisaBob, it sounds like the VP needs to redetermine it's purpose and mission. Do they want independent, challenging activities or do they wish to continue an extension of what's being offered all the troop but in a different venue. Until they have a vision for themselves, there is nothing anyone can do to assist them in attaining their goals. Are ALL the events going to be heavily adult attended, only 1 or 2 during the year, or traditional independent boy-patrol attended? They can have it many ways if that is what they want, but they have to decide for themselves what their vision and goals are and communicate it to the adult leadership. If their vision and goals are not acceptable to the adults, then the boys might just as well fall into place and do the troop car camping thing and forget about a VP patrol. VP patrol is more than just a title adhered to an older boy patrol. If these boys can't spell out what their leadership is going to be, then they need to accept adult-led activities. For me this is why so many older boys quit the troops. They want a vision and goals that challenge and excite them. If that's not possible, they will begrudgingly get their Eagle and quit. What's the sense of learning all these leadership lessons if they never get a chance to put them into practice. Stosh

Thanks for the classic example of why it's so important to stick with the boy-led, patrol-method approach to scouting. It's important to have a CC that can rein in these people and let the boys have their program to themselves. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile... Once the door is opened to adult-led, it's just a matter of time before the boys are shoved out of the way. Stosh

Maybe it's time to remind these people that unless they are a registered youth in the program, they are not participants. Sounds like CC needs to get in and rein in the adults and let the boys run their own program. Even a DC knows that as a leader they don't participate in the program they are assisting with. If the VP wants to go on an outing, there's no rules that state that they have to have ANY adults along. Maybe they ought to enforce it, kinda like the reverse of the Cub Scout rule. A cub can't go unless his parent does, just try on, a boy can't go if his parent insists on going. That ought to solve the problem rather quickly. Stosh

ASPL is PL to Troop Office Corps (scribe, DC, QM, etc.) SPL is PL to the PL's, he bunks in with the TOC on outings. Stosh

Don't be disappointed. I quadrupled my troop the first year and was expecting to triple again this year. I got the quadruple the first year, but only 3 scouts this year. It was a rough year with all new scouts, and we're needing a breather. I'm thinking a slow steady growth would have been a lot easier. Sometimes it's not all that great to get what you think is best. Go with the cards you're dealt, don't worry about the others, do a good job with your program and you'll grow over the years. With 75% of the boys Webelos crossover boys, we went to summer camp and did the patrol-method cooking, New Scout Program, etc. and everything by the book. My boys struggled big time. This time they shopped around until they found a camp that specializes in patrol-method, heavily evaluated the New Scout program and decided on an out-of-council camp. They struggled, but they learned as well. With all the hassles we went through last year, I figured the boys would want to go with the flow and do the mess hall, troop method of our council's camp. Nope, on their own, they are going to stick with the boy-led, patrol-method program even though we got 3 scouts and the adult-led, troop-method program next door picked up 18 new scouts. The three I got are 100% sold on the patrol-method and were not swayed by the high-impact, adult organized glitz of the other troop. One Pack had 19 cross-overs, their CM and 18 of the boys went with him to the other troop. One boy said, no, he's going with us. Now, you tell me about this boy's commitment to the program. Who's the leader and who's the followers here? Stosh

There may have been more scouts than those counted during those years. I know of a WB patrol member of mine that scouted during the depression. 8 scouts, no SM. They survived many years until he aged out and became the SM. If the program really is boy-led?? ...these boys didn't seem to have a problem not having a SM. Stosh

Our boys really enjoyed "VAN PUD" and "CHOC PUD". Take a package of vanilla or chocolate pudding, open and pour into ziplock bag. Add 2 cup equivalent of powdered milk. Zip shut with no air. When ready to serve, add 2 cups cold water, zip shut, shake it around for 2 minutes, snip bottom corner with knife and squeeze out portions to the boys. We tried this experiment a number of years back when we were repackaging food for a canoe trip to BWCA. It's a staple on all backpack trips now. We found that a lot of waste is in packaging and so we repackage everything, taking 7 shopping bags down to about 2.5 bags. The secret is ziplocks. Anything that requires eggs/milk can be mixed in with powdered eggs and dry milk. Just add water, and massage the ziplock. Works for any pancake, muffin, etc. kinds of things. Dried blueberries go well in muffins and can be rehydrated separately before mixing into batter at the last minute. Dumplings on dried soup mixes are great. Write with marker on the ziplocks to identify and amount of water to add. This is where the VAN PUD and CHOC PUD comes from. Although heavier, the bags of chicken (no can) work great and stuff in a pack well and taste a lot better that dehydrated chicken. It's a great base for chicken and dumplings on a canoe trip. For those that love to eat and still want to do BWCA, an aluminum dutch oven is the best investment known to man. Otherwise, learn to dutch oven cook in a messkit. While everyone else eats grits and oatmeal, you could be knocking off a blueberry muffin or two. Take your breading along premixed in ziplocks for the fish you catch. Onions reconstitute well in a soup base. I ate ramen noodles once a long time ago. That was enough for me. They also don't pack down well, a lot of air in the package unless you crush them. Stosh

I concur with the thought that delegating out the SMC is not the best option to follow. With a boy-led program, the SM shouldn't be so busy so as to not be able to do them. Of course this opens the whole can of worms to just exactly what gets covered in a SMC. Does jaw-jacking around the campfire with a scout about scouting, family, school, etc. count as SMC? I count SMC's a personal time with individual scouts and attempt to make a contact of some significance with each boy over the course of each month. I know well before he ends his requirements where he stands, I keep track of his progress and give promptings/suggestions for getting it done as needed. I guess I prefer to personally know what's going on with each boy rather than delegating out some kind of formalized meeting to an ASM who reports back to some results of their contact. Stosh

Personally I carry a hand axe and sheath knife most of the time on scout outings, or at least have it handy on my pack. 3 times in the past 40 years of working with youth, I have had the occasion to save a life with one or the other. Youth trapped in a canoe rope in white-water was the #1 reason. A knife-sharp hand axe is vital. Occasionally a boy will want to be trained to use these tools and I will teach them their proper usage. I've never had a problem with any boys misusing them. Their final test for the use of a hand axe is to sharpen a pencil and then split in two. When it comes to fire building I know of nothing quicker to make tinder and shavings than an overly sharp hand axe. It also does a quick job of stripping off the outside of wet wood to get to the dry stuff underneath. The sheath knife is my knife of preference because I never have to worry about it folding up on my fingers, it has a sturdy blade that doubles as a trenching tool and is readily available at the hip, same for the hand axe. I have two axe/knife sheaths, one older and heavier with leather sheath and a newer lightweight with nylon sheath. The newer one requires more effort on the part of the user because it's weight is not condusive to a heavier blow. None of my boys carry the combination, but frequently ask to use mine for a specific task. If they've been trained properly, I see no problem with them using it. I do not use a three-quarter or full axe, but prefer a buck saw that will do the job just as well, and safer. But for fine work, the sheath and hatchet are the best. And yes, both the sheath knife and hand axe are official BSA equipment. They've been around for many years because they are of excellent quality and weight. Stosh