Stosh

"Please quit lumping deaf & mute together, Stosh. You even said they have emitted vocal sounds to get your attention. Therefore, not mute!" Sorry, but that's the term the friends I have refer to themselves as. And as I stated 3 of them make NO NOISE WHATSOEVER. That makes them mute. One does a non-vocal breath sound similar to one clearing one's throat and the other does make a vocal screech sound. So then maybe only 80% of them are deaf/mutes. Making vocal noises may be in today's world non-mute, but if they cannot use of those sounds to communicate anything other than "When deaf kids try to speak, the reactions of kids who don't know them can be mortifying." Startling, maybe but nobody's going to die. "Trying to speak & speaking are completely different, Kudu. I know lots of deaf kids who do speak. They don't try, they know how to speak. If a person can "hear" you by calling their name, by definition they are hard of hearing, not deaf." "Wrong! Both of my kids are severely to profoundly deaf and they both speak. They both wear hearing aids and can hear when you talk to them." If they wear hearing aids and can hear when someone talks, then they are not deaf. It would seem that we are playing word definition games here. "cumbersome hearing aids This ain't the 70's! Hearing aids are no longer cumbersome! " I said I was making reference to the 70's. Sorry you missed that part. "You really need to get your facts straight, Stosh, before you make totally incorrect statements." They are correct, you may be hearing, but you aren't listening. There's a difference. I suspect that because you have two deaf children you may be more sensitive to the issue than others. However, having known deaf, deaf/mutes, lip-readers/speakers all my life, I don't get all that wrapped up in playing symantic games. mute [ myoot ] adjective Definition: 1. not speaking: unwilling or unable to speak 2. making no sound: saying nothing, or making no sound 3. not expressed in words: felt or expressed without speech 4. law not answering charge: refusing to answer a charge brought in a court of law 5. phonetics Same as plosive 6. phonetics not pronounced: not pronounced, like the final "e" in "cheese" If one were to look at just the word mute itself, speaking and making vocal noises are definitely two different issues of which you find it necessary to lump together. If one must have a definition from which to view my posts, it may not be a modern definition or a politically correct one but: If a person lip-reads and speaks they are deaf, if the person cannot lip-read and relies 99.9% of the time using ASL, they are deaf/mutes, i.e. they cannot or choose not to speak (see definition #1 above). If your two sons have amplification devices and speak, then I would agree they are deaf only. It is a great thing that modern medicine has been able to assist these people the way they have over the past 40 years, but in my day and age, and with people my age that don't avail themselves of such new technology, they remain quite contentedly as they describe themselves deaf/mutes. Stosh

"when a deaf person is reading your signing they are looking you in the eyes." "No they aren't! They are watching your hands! You don't sign with your eyes! Yes they do pay attention to your body language but they rely on primarily watching your hands." As I said, they may be watching out of the corners of their eyes, but they do not stare at your hands while you are signing. Sorry, but maybe the people you know do, but I've never had many do so unless I'm struggling with a sign and they purposefully watch carefully at my hands. To these men, eye contact was very important in a conversation, both to show they were paying attention and as a courtesy as well as reading facial expressions. If one is spelling words, they may watch a little closer, but with most of the actual signs around the chest and head area, there is no need to not make eye contact with the person signing. I for one had to watch the signs to understand them. "And I bet those deaf/mutes did make some vocal sounds!" Three never made any vocal noises whatsoever, one would produce a nasally screech to catch your attention and the last one made a loud breathy "huh!" noise to catch your attention. Other than to catch your attention, they made no vocalizations. "However, catching the attention of a deaf person who speaks and lip-reads excellently cannot hear you calling out to them when they are not looking at you." "If a deaf person speaks, they can hear something and you may be able to get their attention by calling their name. I can with my kids." As I mentioned before, my experience has been mostly with deaf/mutes. Some of their friends were speakers and lip-readers but I didn't know them as well. If a person can "hear" you by calling their name, by definition they are hard of hearing, not deaf. A good speaker/lip-reader can fool the general public by totally covering up their handicap. A hard of hearing person may also know sign language and occasionally not wear the cumbersome hearing aids. With advances in biotechnology a lot more can now be done for these people that wasn't able to be done 40 years ago when I was spending a lot of time with my deaf/mute friends. Stosh

There's always an exception to every rule. 1) We formed the crew around the existing interest 2) Very few of our boys have had Cub/Boy Scout experience 3) Their focus area does not allow them to be interested in any joint/council types of Venturing programs. The only time in 10 years is they did a flag presentation for the council dinner. It all depends on the youth, the interest area and the adults as to whether or not the crew survives. Stosh

The staves my boys use are closet rods 6' long with a hook in one end. They end up tying parachute cord onto it and then with a series of half hitches create a nice grip. Traditionally these can be used for patrol flag staffs. The hook allows them to hang them from trees rather than lying them around on the ground, which if wearing a pack is a pretty dumb idea. The hook also allows them to pull down white pine branches higher than anyone else can reach for fire starting. The boys have taken up the practice of using a magnifying glass to burn in the staves lines at each 1-foot interval and the top most foot includes lines at 1-inch intervals. This facilitates the measurement requirements in the field. They then add dates and places of camps, events, etc. with their magnifying glasses as well. For first aid, two of the boys and their coats have an instant stretcher with sufficient wood to support any of their fellow scouts. When it comes to patrol lashings? Well, they have plenty of poles for that as well. The boys form tripods with hooking their hooks together in front of their tents and thus mark their patrol areas with their flag, all of which can be quickly retrived which would not be possible if the staves are lashed. Stosh.

I stand corrected. I was working with 5 men who were deaf/mutes, yet I know of deaf who speak very well and read lips very well. However, catching the attention of a deaf person who speaks and lip-reads excellently cannot hear you calling out to them when they are not looking at you. For all practical purposes, in that regards, it makes no difference whether they are deaf or deaf/mutes so in some respects they can all be lumped together. I did more thinking and there's another thing to remember, when a deaf person is reading your signing they are looking you in the eyes. It is as if they are not paying attention, but they also read body language and facial expressions at the same time they are watching your hands out of the corner of their eyes. And it's going to take someone who is a very caring and sensitive person to teach you all the sign obscenities you will need to know if you are going to try and keep it away from your boys. I was working in a factory with men, so it wasn't a problem to learn all the bad words, but I don't think you'll be able to sit down with a scout's mom and have her teach you all the bad words her boy may know. Stosh

I used to work with deaf/mutes and there are a number of factors that need to be conveyed and most of these come from the deaf person themselves. Find out how they wish to be notified. I used to stomp on the floor to get their attention, but that doesn't work at a campsite, for example. Be patient and learn from them what they need. It's not a big deal if you show interest in them. View them as different, not deaf. I have focus problems with some of my boys and I gently hang on to their neckers so they focus directly on what I'm saying. It's just a little technique I use and it works. Sometimes stomping, rapping, touching all work, but in differing situations. Let the deaf person let you know what works best for them. At least learn the ASL alphabet so one can cover the basics. Learn signs as they repeat back the sign for the word you just spelled. Paper and pencil works as well. Learn to adjust, they are doing it all the time, now it's your turn. Remember these people think in pictures whereas the hearing think in sounds. When they count on their fingers, it's not because they are not as intelligent, it's just a means by which to visualize their thoughts. They just do things differently than you and I, but they are very good at what they do. You will get brownie points for caring and being patient, both of which doesn't cost anyone anything. As far as their sense of humor is concerned, it's there just like anyone else. With my group of 5 deaf friends, I was the "outsider" that was the butt of most of their jokes because for once I was the one with the handicap. I loved every minute of my time with them. Stosh

The issue is not the bow/arrow, stick, gun, knice, the issue is the maturity level of the boy. I put military assault rifles and raw blackpowder in the hands of my Venturing boys, but I would never consider such a move for any Cub Scout. That is why Cubs are limited to: Cub Scout Shooting Sports Shooting sports provide fun and adventure for boys. Archery and BB gun shooting teach skills, discipline, self-reliance, sportsmanship, and conservation, all of which are elements of good character valued by Scouters. Archery and BB-gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB-gun shooting are not to be done at the den or pack level. Archery and BB gun shooting belt loops and pins may be earned only at the camps and activities listed above. These programs are designed to emphasize safety and marksmanship development under the direction of trained range officers using nationally approved instructional methods." I would also assume that the supervisors are also looking closely into the equipment used on the ranges and I wouldn't bet a whole lot of money on hand-made bows as being appropriate to the safety of all on the range. When in doubt, check with G2SS and your Council and in this case, the range-master who will be supervising the boys. Stosh

Whatever the activity we do, we tend to push the envelop for the boys. Yet it's the adult responsibility to insure their safety as much as possible. For example, we take the boys whitewater canoeing each year, yet there's always an adult at the top, bottom and middle of the rapids before any of the boys head down. Block/Tackle, throw ropes, etc. are all in place, but there's only so much one can do to minimize the danger. If we didn't offer such activities that have a twinge of danger, the boys wouldn't be out there pressing their limits. A challenge always carries with it a bit of danger and it's up to the adults to insure those risks don't get beyond their abilities to deal with appropriately. My venturing crew is involved with extreme inherent dangers and there are those who do get hurt. Last summer I was knocked down by a wadded blank cartridge and I halted my company and had them face around and kneel to protect them. I knew immediately what had hit me and I know from experience that it came from a revolver that had potentially 5 more rounds that could be coming our way. The group involved both members of my venturing crew and other adults that I was responsible for. The maneuver looked out of place and inappropriate to what was expected for the scenerio, but when I called out the danger, many of the other groups in my immediate area did the same thing. You do the best you can given the circumstances. There's a lot one can do to minimize the personal dangers around the scouts by training them precisely correct movements, testing them annually and pulling them from the event even if it's a minor infraction that caused no one harm. My boys know this and they don't press the issue. I cannot protect my small group from any and all dangers, but an awareness of my surroundings requires me to be on my utmost alert to any potential dangers in the area. I have refused movement orders given by my commander and have overridden his commands because of some danger he missed, but I didn't. These are things that instead of being upset, generally garner praise for being alert and safe. I have spent many years as an EMT-A and know the trauma that can be inflicted on a person, and I have spent a few years in the safety department of a large international manufacturing operation and know that in spite of everything one can to to minimize danger, there's always someone out there that suffers from that 1-second lapse of awareness that draws serious consequences. As a SM/CA, I can't afford losing that 1 second. Stosh

I still stand by my point, but agree that we have watered down the adventure of scouting in many ways. Yes, we did a lot more adventurous things when we were younger, and yes, there were accidents. People back then would write off much of those things as boys being boys. However, with the first phone call to a lawyer then to the scout leader, things have changed. Walking sticks like whitling knives, they too, can be thought of as weapons, but many of those types of things go a long way in teaching boys to handle knives, sticks, etc. in appropriate ways. A handmade bow allows for an additional problem in that it is specifically made to be a weapon, a whitling knife and walking stick are not. Yes, when I pulled back on my first bow, it shattered and I was not wearing eye protection, but I was lucky. There will others that won't be. There are a few professionals out there that will advise everyone, "Don't try this at home!" But it always takes me back to the question, just where did these professionals learn it then if not "at home?" Stosh

I know of one gentleman that had 3 boys in Cubs over the years and as an engineer, he laid out the plans for his boys to build their own cars. Whatever "secret" he used, it was effective. The boys were expected to build a new car each year. The boys always won hands down. Once his last boy finally aged out of Webelos II he burned the plans, even though he was offered a pretty penny for them. So it can be done, thus the spirit of the game. Stosh

Why is it that "Wheel of Fortune" keeps popping into my head? Can I buy a vowel? And JoeBob, I'm thinking it's pronounced "GEE". Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Here's the rub. Cubs are not allowed to participate in shooting sports unless it's on a supervised range with a qualified range-master. Allowing the boys to make weapons and then let them round around camp with them is an invitation for some serious problems. Same would apply with the boys making sling-shots. Not a suggestion I would want to make to my boys, even on the Boy Scout level. Stosh

Here we go again!!!! Stosh

Dusting around a computer is the kiss of death for the unit if there is static shock. Yes, she could have killed off the computer by dusting the keyboard. That is why they use air to spray dust off of computer equipment. We had a cleaning lady take out a computer system at work by "dusting off the top of the computer box." And unfortunately, yes, the #1 victim of such static is usually the motherboard. This is why technicians go to great lengths to ground themselves and use anti-static gloves and special plastics to surround computer equipment. Ever notice how much static electricity is in the styrofoam that the computer is packed in? Be careful, very careful. Stosh

There's a fine line between interested parents and meddling parents. Once they cross that line from interested to meddling, they become helicopter parents. Stosh

Don't worry Buffalo, the boys will figure it out on their own. Once one patrol gets in the groove and has all their chores done and they have a chance to goof off, the others will follow suit. I have often fielded the question why the SM is sitting around doing nothing and when I point to the fact that all my camp chores are done, they take that info under advisement. I'm usually the first with my tent up, first done with meals and first in line for any fun activities. Once the race rules are figured out, they are more than happy to get with the program. Stosh

A terrible and avoidable incident should not set precident for policy changes in the BSA program and emphasis. It is truly unfortunate that such things happen, but had there been a fatal car accident on the way to camp it would not automatically mean boys should seek other modes of transportation in getting to camp. Boys do stupid things and adults should be ever vigilant to any and all situations, but there comes a time when the boys need to be allowed some space to demonstrate their leadership and maturity of decisions they make. I'm sure there are plenty of other "examples" of boys doing stupid/unsafe things that could be used to shut down the entire BSA program as a whole. Isolated incidents should not be used to promote specific agendas and instead remain dire warnings to a vigilant adult leadership. This response should in no way detract from the tragedy, nor is it to reduce it's importance in any way, shape or form. Stosh

6 boys = one patrol, no SPL. I wouldn't worry about an SPL until one has at least 4 patrols. I would emphasize working on developing a good PL structure of having the boys listening to just one leader at a time. Once the group gets up around 30 boys, then it would be ok to consider an SPL to assist the PL's. I find that troops that hussle to quickly to fill troop officer personnel will do so at the expense of the patrols. Once a troop officer corps is established, quite often the troop method begins to take over and the patrol method takes a back seat to the dynamics of the group. As the group grows to signficant numbers, the temptation is to exert more adult "supervision" to quell the observable disorientation of the patrol method, i.e. each patrol doing their own thing and soon one has an adult-led, troop-method approach to unit. Not many adults can let go and let the boys lead, thus there's always the desire to rush to establish an SPL and his concern takes precident over the patrol method as he tries to "run the troop". All patrols thus must conform to his program rather than maintaining their own. Stosh

Anyway boys can do everything for getting his interests justified keeping leisure moments nearly open perhaps quickening reachable suitable talents using very ways .... dang! Stosh

!@#$%^&* ...and what would Sesame Street say about all these keyboard keys that don't get used very often... Maybe for just cause. I bet that caught a lot of attention. Stosh

We don't use Scout Sign to quiet the boys. Every boy that comes into the troop from a Pack is taught to quiet down when the leader puts up the sign. However, when that leader does so they interrupt the boys and their conversation. Instead, when I come to the front and wish their attention, I stand there and wait for their conversations to finish, then begin. After I begin, I expect them to not interrupt me because I gave them respect and didn't interrupt them. There's never been a need to use the Scout sign in the troop. Surprisingly, the only person that has ever asked the boys to wrap up their conversation has been their PL's when they see a leader come to the front to address them. Stosh

Perhaps, but just when one thinks they have it all figured out, someone always hits ya with an out-of-the-box idea and the fun begins all over again. There's always a new adventure out there, just around the bend, BE PREPARED. Who'da thunk that Keoki12 would have started such a fun thread with just the letter A? Stosh

Welcome to Leadership 101 Stevo. It would seem that you have identified the #1 problem with Leadership. If I lead and no one follows, what's the sense in trying to lead? Might I suggest at the next PLC one takes a different track. Instead of trying to lead, say something like: "Ok, you are not interested in following me, how about you telling me what you need and I'll do my best to help you get there." This way the onus of leading falls on them and you will assist them in their goals. They are given ownership of the problems/goals. Right now, they have no goals, only your suggestions. The ownership is yours, not theirs. Once they establish goals for their patrols, you as SPL do all you can do to help make them successful. This way, when the patrol succeeds, the PL gets the credit and yet, he'll follow you and your advice every goal he sets from that point onward. If he fails, then help him reorganize and get him back into the game. The more you are able to help the more he will in actuallity follow you and your advice. As a SPL in my troop, he is not to lead the troop he is to empower the PL's to lead their patrols. Whenever a PL is having problems, all the SPL does is ask the question, "What do you need me to do to help you?" If the onus of leadership is kept on the PL's they will learn to lead and the SPL will in fact be the key person that makes it happen, i.e. a leader of leaders. Stosh

Why not add the measurable matrix to be repeated next time, i.e. Patrol 1 ties on a head bandage in 15 seconds. Patrol 2 challenges and they've been reading up on making it better so they tie the head bandage in 16 seconds, but they also check for skull depression before applying. Total time 20 seconds. Patrol 1 sees the game and they do the same in 19 seconds. Patrol 2 then checks the skull and neck placing a C-collar and head bandage, 30 seconds. Patrol 1 sees the game and they do the same in 29 seconds. Patrol 2 then does all the rest but also checks for level of consciousness before starting and sends off two scouts for added help. 40 Seconds. Patrol 1 sees the game and they do the same in 39 seconds. Patrol 2 covers all the bases and then writes a record of all they have done and seen for the "patient". 60 seconds. Patrol 1 Yep, 59 seconds. What's happening here. Patrol 1 is learning and gaining bragging rights, but Patrol 2 is trumping the others every time with more and more quality in the program. They are writing the rules, expanding the knowledge base, changing the focus, raising the bar, and getting really good at first aid. Is it all that beneficial for Patrol 1 to tie a square knot in 3.7 seconds and nobody can ever beat it? Bragging rights forever, but the learning stops forever too. There's no end for Patrol 1's bragging rights, but there's no end for Patrol 2's bragging rights too. They are improving the quality of each challenge and doing actual leadership for the other patrols. They set the measurable standard and maybe only hold it for a day or two, but they always have the chance to raise the bar and challenge the others once again. I see both patrols gaining from this process of competition. Just think of the bragging rights for Patrol 1 if they did what Patrol 2 did, added more quality AND still beat their time!? Now the competition is in full swing! Stosh

I may hvae dliesyxa but if the fsrit and lsat ltetres of any wrod is ceorcrt, the hmuan barin is caablpe of frirgnig out waht is bnieg siad. And yes, I do have mild dyslexia. ^ Stosh