Stosh

You are correct. The boy only has to do what the book states, nothing more, nothing less. By the way, if you check on e-bay they occasionally have the old patrol flags (bullet shaped, with red/black patrol symbol on them) Flaming Arrow is one of them. My boys have all gone to the cloth bullet shaped flags that tie onto their 6' walking staves. They are easy to handle, clean up in the washing machine and if one wishes to use iron-on transfers can add anything they want extra (troop #) if they so wish. My troop officers also carry "patrol" flags to identify themselve to the troop members as well, i.e. 3 green stripes (SPL) 2 1/2 green stripes (ASPL) and the PL's all carry the patrol flags. Yes they are all uniform, but there are a lot of other troops commenting on them because the boys drag them everywhere they go because it's not some cumbersome or delicate flag that can't take the beating that most boys dish out. Stosh

Dutch ovens are NOT limited to car/trailer camping! Aluminum Dutch ovens fit nicely in the standard military duffle bag which fits nicely in between the thwarts of a canoe. Nothing better to wake up in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area to the smell of blueberry muffins!!!! These aluminum Dutch ovens work exactly like the cast iron ones but they are cleaned up with regular soap and water. The only fall-back with them is that they can be overheated so watch the fire. Standard amounts of coals are mandatory. The cost runs about $15 more than the cast iron models. For the backpacker, the aluminum mess kit makes an excellent mini-Dutch oven. Just make individual proportions rather than trying to cook for a group. 4 briquettes (or wood equivent) on top, three on the bottom gives a nice 350 degree heat on the inside. The bucket on the inside makes one really nice sized muffin! For many people they double-duty their efforts when they don't need to. Bake-Packer to bake things (oven), mess kit to fry things (stove). The mess kit as Dutch oven works just fine. Experiment, experiment, experiment! It's well worth the effort! Stosh

I have a solution. My father worked in an ice cream factory when I was a kid and there were canvas coolers with metal inserts similar to the water inserts in today's coolers except these inserts were filled with salt-water and froze at a lower temperature than plain water. The canvas coolers I have (three of them) held the standard paper carton of ice cream that is still used today in ice cream shops around the country. What I would suggest is get the coolers with the inserts that have caps on them, drain out the water and replace with a saline solution, then freeze. It'll extend the life of the ice cream quite a bit. A word of warning. If one puts these inserts in a regular cooler with non-frozen items such as milk and juice it will partially freeze them if placed next to the insert! If one were to ever find one of these canvas coolers at an antique store, pick it up! If it has the inserts even better. But if one were to use dry ice instead of the inserts, the canvas cooler will allow the escaping CO gas to expel itself without any dangerous gas build up. If one wishes to make them they are the size of the modern paper ice cream containers, canvas inside and outside quilted with wool batting. Circular bottom, 4 flap top with buckle fasteners (dog collars) and a leather strap handle. Best thing there is for keeping meat cold for 4-5 days on the longer trips. Put meat in frozen, add saline inserts and the meat will still be cold a week later. Stosh

98% of what is discussed as Civil War is permeated with myth, legend and lore. Pure history takes a backseat. There are still strong emotions tied to the War and the two sides will never come to an agreement on any of it. The War was fought for different reasons on both sides. The north went to war to preserve the Union (i.e. not to free the slaves). The south seceeded to preserve slavery. Just be thankful that it was fought because if it hadn't, the issue of slavery would not have been settled until well into the 20th Century, the number of states needed to ratify the 14th Amendment would not have been sufficient until then. The math is simple 13 slave states could have held off until 37 states were established to counter the vote (3/4th of the states needed to ratify an Amendment). Do the math. 37+13 = 50 The 50th state came into existance in 1959. Remember up until 1868, 3 years after the war, did slavery become illegal in the United States. The Founding Fathers knew this was going to be an issue when the declared independence and established the Constitution. Jefferson commented on it many times. They basically passed the buck and it was inevitable that it would take a war to settle it. Unfortunately, the war didn't resolve it all. Remember that when the issue of slavery was on the table in the 1860's it had NOTHING to do with racism. The issue of racism was addressed in the 1960's. Here's a bit of trivia the PC public doesn't know nor wants to know. In the 1870's there was a slave rebellion of blacks against their Indian slave-owners in the US territories of the southwest (yes the Constitution only applies to established states). The rebellion was put down by US cavalry soldiers and the slaves were returned to their Indian owners. These soldiers are today known as the Buffalo soldiers because the 5th and 7th Cavlaries were not involved in the supression (the only two white regiment of cavalry after the war). Abolition and racism are two entirely different animals which required two "revolutions" in our country to resolve, one in the 1860's and the other in the 1960's. Bone up on history, it's very surprising what is REALLY out there compared to what most people THINK is out there. I'm 100% born and bred Yankee (damnyankee to my southern friends) and having studied in detail, I can see both sides and every year I personally go out and place Second National CSA flags on all the appropriate graves in my county on Memorial Day to honor the veterans under the flag they believed in. The "Second American Civil War" in this nation will occur for exactly the same reasons as the first. Once people feel their rights are being systematically deprived of them, they will step forward and defend them. It's not an issue of what's right and wrong, it's what is Constitutionally guaranteed to them is being taken away. Like the ancient adage says, "Those who don't learn from history are destined to relive it." Will the modern man who stands up for his Constitutional rights of today be seen as un-American as the Confederate veteran? By the way, for all those who think that the Confederates were not American, please put your glasses back on, your myopia is causing you problems. Canadians are Americans, so are Mexicans, Brazilians, Peruvians, and Chileans. The US is only a small part of the Americas, an arrogant part, but still just a small part. BSA honors all people, not just the ones we happen to like at the present time. I'm thinking the part "...help other people at all times..." isn't limited to just a few of our friends. Stosh

Sorry, but this last weekend I had my best homesick story of my career. NSP boys went down to bed Friday night, first night in tent for many of the new boys. As adults we were listening to the boys settle in and we heard one of the boys crying. My ASM's know that they are to get me up if there's a problem, but the process we use usually works best. All the adults first lay quiet until it gets really serious. Too often adult intervention makes the situation worse. So we waited. Because we didn't do anything, the crying boy's buddy tried to quiet him down as best he could. Finally the boy got quieter and his buddy rolled over only to be interrupted with a request from the homesick boy for some kleenex. The buddy didn't have any and told him to go to sleep. About five minutes later the boy was crying again and his buddy asked him now what was he problem. He said he couldn't get to sleep because he was "covered with snot!" Once the adults quit laughing, we finally got to sleep too. Stosh

First call 5:45 am. Reveille 6:00 am. Breakfast 7:00 am. Flags & normal camp activities 8:00 am. Last weekend when I got up at 5:30 to get ready for First Call, 5 boys were already up and making breakfast for their patrol. My boys know that the troop is early rising, so they are all normally in bed by 10:00 pm. Stosh

My boys have mastered baking cheese cake in the Dutch oven. They quit doing cobblers a long time ago, too simple to make. There's no limit as to what can be done in a Dutch oven. If one can make the recipe in the oven or on top of a stove at home, they can make it in the Dutch. Stosh

Lots of good ideas, some not so good, some biased, etc. The Civil War is still fresh in the minds of many US citizens. Here's what I would do. The Battle Flag of Northern Virginia (aka, Confederate Flag) is NOT and NEVER WAS an official flag of the Confederacy. It is NOT the Stars and Bars. The Stars and Bars is what the current Georgia State Flag looks like today, blue union, 3 bars 2 red, one white. 13 Stars on the union. That is the First National Flag of the Confederacy. It was often confused with the Stars and Strips on the battle field and was replaced with the Stainless Flag of the Confederacy, the Second National Flag of the Confederacy. It was all white except for the modified Union Jack with 13 Stars in the union area. (Square version of the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia). Because of the amount of white in the flag, it looked like a flag of truce, and so a red vertical strip was added along the fly edge of the Stainless Flag and that became the Third National Flag of the Confederacy. It appeared late in the war and never made it to the field of combat. So once the true history is known, one realizes that the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia is nothing more than a battle field marker, similar to the regimental flags used by Federal forces during the war. In battle the regiments of Northern Virginia carried two flags, the National Flag and the Battle Flag. The Battle Flag deserves the same respect as any other regimental flag and is disposed of in like manner, but not with full honors. Because of this, I would invite an official representative from the Sons of Confederate Veterans to attend the ceremony and instead of disposing of the flag, present it to him to deal with as he sees fit. Sons of Confederate Veterans is an official organization like the American Legion, or VFW, representing the ancestors of Confederate Veterans. It is not a reenacting organization, but an organization dedicated to the memory of their Confederate ancestors. Then deal with the US flag according the the traditional methods mentioned. As far as the representation of slavery and the problems of Civil War symbols, one will find that the US flag flew over slavery far longer than any of the Confederate flags and is used more often at racial demonstrations than the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia. The only reason the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia gets so much press over any of the other Confederate battle flags is because General R. E. Lee commanded the Northern Virginia forces during the war. Only a very small percentage of Confederate forces viewed that flag as their battle flag. The Confederacy is NOT a foreign entity, nor was it ever a foreign entity, and it did not become one upon secession. Lincoln went to war to preserve the Union, thus it was a CIVIL war not a foreign war. Lincoln was not interested in preserving anything other than the Union and if that meant keeping slavery he was for it. It took two years of warfare before he declared those slaves in hostile territory to be "free" as were any other asset owned by secessionists. It was an economic issue not a racial or slavery issue. If the slaves were not working the fields, the Confederacy would not be able to sustain it's armies in the field. Slaves in border states were still not free. Slavery was not abolished until the signing and acceptance of the 14th Amendment of the Constitution well after the death of Lincoln. At that point all slaves were free. So, once one gets past all the emotional baggage of the situation, a dignified presentation to the Sons of Confederate Veterans will suffice in an appropriate manner for disposing of a worn Confederate flag of any rank, whether it be a Confederate National flag or a battlefield regimental flag. Stosh Capt. Co. B, 2nd Wisconsin Volunteers, Reenactors Advisor Crew 2, BSA 2nd WI Vol Infantry, USA 26th NC Regiment of Infantry, CSA(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Boys going to National Jamboree were notified that ANY uniform that says BSA on it is acceptable. They asked my SPL to stand and show the OD uniform from the 60's that he was wearing and they said that the uniform he was wearing was just fine for the National trip. One old SM quipped that he had a wool tunic from the 30's that still fits. The Jamboree SM asked if it said BSA on it. He responded, "Yep, all over the lining." The SM said that would be fine, but in July/August he might want to rethink the sanity of wearing wool. :^( Stosh

My CC is the former SM of the troop. He was part of the selection process for a new SM to replace him and having selected me because of what I do best, he supports me 100%. I have asked him to provide me with boy-contact adults that will work within the principle/goals of what I'm trying to provide for the boys. Thus far he has done a fantastic job for me. If people don't like the way things are going in the troop, the letter of resignation handed over to the chartering organization will be signed by both the CC and SM. Careful screening of adults responsible for direct-boy contact is based on goals and principles of scouting, not personalities. If the incoming adult doesn't agree with that, he/she is offered a non-boy-contact position in the troop. Thoughtful screening of adult leadership is mandatory to minimize conflicts down the road. Stosh

If we have someone who over sleeps, two adults stay behind and do camp chores. If the event is a camporee the PL's are responsible for getting their boys to the activities, adults are not necessary anyway. I don't find that a sleeper goes much beyond a last minute breakfast of leftovers. Boys that gain a reputation for sleeping in are discouraged by their patrol buddies not to sign up for troop only events. Eventually if there is a pattern to such behavior the boy is asked to find another patrol, i.e. slacker patrol, which is not invited to the events were keeping to a schedule is important. All of life is choices. If the sleeper can make a choice that fits his needs, the patrols reserve the right to make choices that fit their needs as well. There is no trickle-down effect with the SPL getting up first. Every PL is responsible for the members of his patrol. If he wishes to get a wake-up call it is the SPL's responsibility to help him with it. If the SPL needs help, the adults can provide it. It's an issue of helping, not directing from the top down, but supporting from the bottom up. It really shouldn't be the SPL's responsiblity to run all over camp waking PL's up, but if they request help, they get it. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

;^) I realize that adults will be adults and there's no way to re-train them, but I have requested my CC to provide me with adults that have taking care of the boys as their #1 responsibility. I have never gone on an outing with the boys without assuming that it's a working holiday for me. I visit with the adults prior to their involvement as to whether or not they adhere to this ideal. If they don't then I ask them not to participate in direct-boy contact positions. That doesn't mean that I'm not up for a CC/Committee retreat where everyone can hang out WITHOUT the boys. I usually love these trips just as much as those with the boys. But there's a time and place for everything. I'm not a task-master, and I can cut-loose and have a great time along with the best of them, but when I'm responsible for boys, it's a whole new ballgame that I take seriously and expect those adults around me to do the same. It's not that I enforce rules for adults, I just don't invite them back when problems arise. Those adults that want to work with the boys don't have any problem with this setup. I don't expect the boys to be mature, but I do expect it from the adults. With this "expectation" spelled out up front, I have been able to gather around me excellent adult leadership and I couldn't be happier with the people I have. Stosh

The CC needs to find more mature adults for the troop. Obviously if one is getting a poor night's sleep so are the boys. This is why I don't allow adult patrols, or any variances that may give any clue that the adults are there for no other reason that the boys. Adults that need to bond as buddies can do so as adults on a different outing, not when they are there responsible for the boys. My adults all head for bed at lights out and get quiet to insure there are no problems with the boys heading to bed either. Lead by example. Stosh

One registered adult with each group with the tour-guide functioning as an adult second. Not a problem. I'm assuming the tour-guide knows what he/she's doing and can handle problems within his tour group. Stosh

A wake-up call is given at 6:00 am. If anyone decides to ignore it, they are left behind. If they miss enough meals and activities they will tune in. Usually a sleeper is conditioned by poor responsibility at home. Such patterns are difficult to break and it's not the job of the PL to enforce responsiblity for personal habits. If a scout sleeps in, it's his way of notifying his patrol buddies that there is something going on that's more important than them. If the scout gets outsted from his patrol, there should be a conditional patrol available that has no leadership, adheres to no protocols and will eventually dissolve due to a lack of interest. Boys in this patrol need leadership they can ask their parents who have trained them in these processes to take over and extend their "control" over their boys so that they can get their "Eagle" for them as time goes on. My boys know this process and are generally up and moving sometime between 5:30 and 6:00 am to make sure they don't miss out on anything. Those that don't care are left behind. Usually the cooks eat first and the laggards get left-overs if there are any. This policy has been used for a year or so now and the boys sleeping in no longer rely on others to make them get up, they will do it themselves. I have an SPL that requests the adults that they get him up at 6:00 am. We wake him and then forget about the rest of the troop, unless other specific requests are given. Adults assist the boys when asked, otherwise the boys run the program. I generally go to bed at 10:00 pm and rise at 6:00 pm. Strangely, so do my boys. The only exception to this rule is when the boys stay up later at the campfire (which is always extinguished before retiring, they know that the practice is "tolerated" because they are responsible and trusted to do it correctly) or when the newer scouts want to go to bed earlier. We seldom have problems with this process and when we do it is minor. Sometimes when they miss breakfast the boys think it's a major issue, but the adults and patrol buddies don't. Stosh

>>> "Just curious jblake, but why is PL of Patrol B telling anyone in patrol A what to do?" My most senior scout (17 yo) is the PL of the NSP. He also doubles as the SPL as needed by activities that emphasize Troop level representation. The second most senior (16 yo) serves as PL of the second patrol. Knowing that the 16 yo often drops the ball on his patrol by not showing up very often, the 17 yo as a courtesy will recommend different options for the APL of the second patrol (13 yo) things that he might consider doing to assist his patrol members. The 13 yo has the option of blowing off these suggestions which he did in this case. The 17 yo does a great job of getting his boys ready, of course, with the majority of the boys NSP (there are other boys in the NSP that are not new scouts). The boys of the older patrol are basically leaderless for the most part, they know their PL is only interested in his Eagle and has no interest in actually doing anything to help the patrol. Thus his credibility as a leader is zero. The 13 yo is only de facto leader in that no one else even lifts a finger to help. The 17 yo who's doing a knockout job with the NSP did a Dutch oven chococlate chip cookie cheese cake for the desert which blew away the staff and other troops that were all wanting the recipe, which his patrol carefully guards as their ace-in-the-hole for camporee competitions. He made plenty that could have been enough to cover all the scouts in the troop. He has said that he has less than a year to get the NSP up and running as leaders because he's going to age out before they can take the reins of the patrol and eventually lead the troop as boy-led. The 17 yo was PL of the older boys, but when the 16 yo did nothing with the NSP, they switched when the 17 yo felt it more important that the NSP get trained correctly and we all assumed the older boys would fair better than the NSP with the lack of leadership. By the way with over of the boys in the older patrol having had TLT training it shouldn't be a stretch to think that they have the potential, and experience to pull themselves together. Obviously no one seems to be stepping up at this point. By the way the 16 yo showed up at the camporee this weekend for about an hour when his mom stopped by to drop him off. Instead, his younger Webelos brother stayed and he went home. I don't mind it when the 17 yo of Patrol A recommends things to Patrol B as a courtesy thing, it's good training for him. He'll be the 3rd ASM of our council contingency to National in 2010. He's very careful to word the recommendations as an adult would do in a boy-led program. He is doing a nice job of making the boy -> adult leader transition by making sure to pass the baton on to the younger boys and not hogging all the spotlight for himself. As far as the 13 yo, (and all his patrol buddies) they consistantly blow off any assistance offered by the 17 yo, the SM and any other adult that attempts to work with their situation. They hang out just fine until something goes wrong then they seek out less involved adults to whine to and garner sympathy. It's the standard game of playing one adult against the other to get their way. The first lesson learned? Whine to the adults, get what you want. The second lesson learned? And yes there was other fall out from the NSP who verbally questioned why the older boys got treats when they didn't do any work. Is this how the troop works? Time will tell whether or not situations like this can affect the leadership potentional of the others. Yes, the NSP would have shared with the older boys as a courtesy, but the issue was camporee wide, not just within our troop. The comments made indicated that such attitudes reflected bad on the whole troop in front of the whole district. It's a matter of some care about boy-led and patrol cooperation and others care only for themselves and everyone is becoming quickly aware of who's who. When those who care only for themselves enlist adult help to get their way, it doesn't bode well for the rest of the boys. Stosh

And it's so easy for the balance to shift. Patrol A older boys, Patrol B new scouts. Patrol A PL doesn't show, doesn't get involved, APL tries to hold it together for the Camporee. Patrol B PL works hard gets his new kids in the loop. Reminds patrol A leadership multiple times they need to make sure they have pot-luck desert for the Camporee on Saturday night. Patrol A blows him off because he's PL of the new boys. Get to the Camporee, Patrol A doesn't have a dessert to pass, Patrol B does. Called out to get in line for treats, Patrol A jumps up. PL of B reminds them that they haven't brought anything and they probably shouldn't be there just for the freebies. Scout carries his fair share. PL of A runs off to his mother crying (literally) (Mother/Father a registered leaders in two units, ours and another) Mom consoles boy, father gets in the act and says the boys should go up and get treats. Father then precedes to take it out on the SM (Me) for lack of communication/leadership and the Patrol A should have an adult mentor (which is is eager to fill in as) and the boys are too young to actually be leading themselves at age 12/13. And unless I stand my ground, the balance will quickly shift from boy-led to adult-led. By the way, the APL has been in the troop for 1 1/2 years, still a Tenderfoot, has had TLT training, been PL of a new patrol last year which fell apart over the course of his tenure (1 year) and has continually threatened to quit over the course of the past 8 months. Parents feel this boy and his patrol need adult "mentoring" because he hasn't had the opportunity, training, and experience to be a real leader in the patrol. How easy it would be for the adults to take over and run the show. A mentor here, a guide there, and advisor in another place and the SM directing the show. Boy would our troop's performance really improve. But then with adult leadership it should, the boys can't be trusted to do their own thing, just look at their track record and how upset they are. Stosh

Every Monday night 50 weeks of the year. No scout meeting at summer camp and take off a Monday during Christmas break. Extra activities throughout the summer. Camporees, summer camp, high adventure, hikes, all planned throughout the year. COH every time Monday falls on a 5th Monday of the month. Before I came they used to not have a meeting on Monday night when the Packers play. We no longer follow that tradition. Too busy? Maybe, but if a boy has to miss there's something coming on its heels. One boy couldn't make summer camp where we planned on going, so he signed up for provisional at another camp. Juggling schedules especially in the summer is quite a feat. Stosh

Go for it. My boy wore his wolf necker all the way through Cubs and no one ever said a thing. He liked the yellow and blue combo. Getting a boy to simply wear a necker is a big deal with today's boys. If they all want something special, I'd say go and get them. If they all switch over to the tan shirt, then no one is to the wiser and they look like Boy Scouts right down to the patrol patches. Only thing different is the loops. Stosh

Hmmm, Group A gets to rent the park pavillion for $1 after they clean up the park. Group B gets to rent the park pavillion for $2 for their own use. No rights are denied. Both have a right to the pavillion. One often confuses entitlement with rights. No one is stepping on the rights of Group B by charging them $2 to use the pavillion. It's probably a good thing to rent to Group A because it's going to cost the government $1 in lost revenue to get the park cleaned, whereas it would have normally cost them $3 for the government workers to do it. Cherry-picking facts to support an agenda is usually evidence of intentional argumentation. Unfortunately for those who like to play such games, not everyone wants to join in. Stosh

I'm with Buffalo on this! Great job! Starting from scratch gives one the best perspective of not having to unlearn all the "traditions" that troops often carry forward. I'm seeing some pretty exciting years ahead for you. Stosh

Go the the city parks and rec department and say, "I'm from a Christian can I rent the pavilion in the park?" I'm sure they won't say no. So if the scouts want to rent a building as a religious organization, there shouldn't be any big deal. However, would an athiest group welcome a Christian or Muslim in their organizational membership? Nope. Any and all groups restrict membership to those that have similar interests, singling out BSA is nothing more than bigotry. As far as schools not welcoming BSA that's bogus and smacks of bigotry too. When I started a mission church, we met in the local public school for over a year until we got our building project underway. Singling out BSA and restricting their efforts is no different than singling out Hebrews and restricting their efforts, but it is more socially acceptable to pick on Boy Scouts than Jews. Go figure. Bigotry takes on many forms, but it all smells the same. Stosh

When I started an ambulance service in a small town in Iowa back in the 80's, our vehicle purchase was an old hearse style ambulance from a Medical Explorer Post. It's good to see such activity is still strong and continuing on a great tradition. Stosh

As one who has been involved in whole-pig roasting, the process can be quite fun. Collect up the pig, take him down to the local locker have it processed, bring it back put it on a spit, and after 24 hours of hand cranking there's nothing left to do but eat some of the best pork you'll ever taste. By the way, one cannot get the swine-flu from pork any more than one can get avian-flu from eating chicken or a green-sick fracture from playing with green sticks. The only good thing from such ignorance is the price of pork is dropping and I'm stocking up! Stosh

The only problem we have had with cell phones is on our fall outing one boy was home-sick and his PL let him borrow his cell phone to call home. The boy did so, his parents came and got him and he has never returned to the troop. I was unaware of this until AFTER the parent had come and gotten the boy. My only comment to the PL was, "That's why cell phones have no place at outings." Had the PL made a better choice maybe we would still have that scout in our troop. The PL has commented his regrets and now discourages the cell phones amongst his peers for just that reason. Stosh