Stosh

If cotton is replacing the wool shirt of the older uniform, they have made a move in the wrong direction. Nothing looks nicer than a nice wool dress shirt. For comfort and utility my cotton works just great. My "dress" uniform is wool. I'm not thinking the synthetic based fabric would be all that comfortable compared to cotton although it may last longer. I'm thinking that after 14 years, some of my cotton shirts are looking a bit "worn". My wool shirt looks like it just came out of the box. I like my natural fiber clothing. Ever wonder why they make blue jeans, t-shirts and sweatshirts out of cotton? I don't. Stosh

The only problem with the situation which is describe is: The adult led, troop method produces results. It should, adults are leading it. Boy led programs stumble, miss events, are inefficient and take time to develop the leadership skills of boys. Adults already have these skills and can provide all the best for the boys. I compete in my town with a well run, active adult led program and I have about 1/3rd the boys as they do. This year after Blue/Golds, I garnered 4 boys, they got 20. One of my Star ranked scouts transfered over to that troop this past week. It's tough for boys to compete with adults, they'll lose every time. Just because one runs the program correctly doesn't mean they are going to be as successful in the areas that show. My boys struggle with the challenges of developing leadership, in an adult led program that is never an issue, they just do what they are told by the adults who are lining up big trips and doing all the leg-work. I've been on both sides of the fence on this one and I'm sticking with my boy led program. Stosh

When I was speaking of double uniforms, I was expecting the "activity" uniform to be practical in the field. Obviously the activity polo shirt might be great on the golf course, but it was a total waste of time in the woods. Marines look good in their dress blues at ceremonies, but I don't think they would be very practical in downtown Baghdad. Putting a pocket t-shirt out there as a practical shirt was rather dumb. If this was BSA's attempt at something practical, it is falling into the same crapper as the "centennial" and switchback uniforms seems to be going. Make it useful and the boys will buy it. Stosh

Yeah, I'm trying to visualize great food on the one hand and it keeps getting interrupted by leaking hemorrhoids. Stosh

One needs to pay attention to the flow of the forums. I see a lot of posts with family dynamics being built in by local troops. 6 boys and 6 adults attending outings doesn't seem to me to be a BSA activity, it's dad and boys (family) attending many of the outings together and BSA was never designed to be as such. Scout camps now have "family" weeks where the whole family can go when their boy goes although they have to be in a separate area. "Can SM's with no kids in the program be acceptable?" Another nice dig at BSA policy. Why wouldn't an adult without kids in the program be acceptable unless it's a family only program and the parents have to run it. Hovering parents? Sure, they all want in on the program. Parent coordinators? If it's a boy program what's the need of such a position? Need I continue? I joined scouts to get away from my parents. I didn't want them dragging along. This was my opportunity to develop some independence and maturity without any mom/dad hand-holding. Stage Mom's and Little League Dads have ruined a lot of other excellent programs, I would hate to have them get their hands on BSA too. Stosh

I know it's a pricey proposition, but I would like to see BSA go with two uniforms. My boys wear their "Class A" all the time at events, full uniform. When the COH's come around they look rather rag-tagged. I like Buffalo's idea of utilitarian pockets on the activity uniform and yet I like the idea of the older style of flat pockets on the formal uniform. There is yet another option if one wishes to go back in history even further. The original scouts wore a tunic over their uniform shirt. The tunic had a standup collar and had all the rank/patches on it. When they took off the tunic during work, i.e. took off the suit coat when they got to the office, they had on a uniform shirt and everyone looked the same. Maybe the uniform shirt had a rank and POR patch on, but was not meant as a formal uniform for the COH. Maybe BSA could take a lesson and have a lightweight tunic over a uniform shirt and could kill two birds with one stone. I do believe the military still uses this practice. BDU's for the field and a dress uniform for more formal occasions. Yes, a heavier coat over a shirt is difficult in the summer time but not impossible, I do it all the time. I still wear my jac shirt over my uniform at outside events and it's wool. A lighter weight tunic/jac shirt would still look nice. Stosh

I posted the 7% figure from a study done a few years back and yet another study showed that figure to be more around 50% (1998) and declining so I'm thinking the number might be more in line with 30-40%. With that being said and going more with what Beavah says, the pool of Cleaver families' boys is declining rapidly. I have tried to reach out to all boys in my area, but they all tend to be in the Cleaver/divorced situation. I find that the broken home situations can't afford many of the activities that the boys are involved with. Single income families fall into this as well. We do our best to provide fund raisers for these boys, but if they don't get out and hussle, it's a losing proposition. While many of these boys would benefit from the BSA program to improve their situation, like college, it takes a lot of money up-front and for some families this just isn't an option. Stosh

My mistake! If there is a hanging button on the pocket already under the flap and one is still loosing patches. Put a Swiss tab from beind the pocket front reaching over and buttoning over the button on the front of the pocket. That should solve the problem. Where to get a Swiss tab? Old shirt of any sort should have a button to cut one out of. It doesn't have to match the color, it will be under the pocket flap anyway. Stosh

Rogaining is finding locations on a map, going there, getting proof and then going to another location, any location in any order. Points scored at locations are determined by terrain and distance. This is a timed event, usually 24 hours and there are rules for the team to stay together, etc. http://www.rogain.ee/eng/index.php has a link for introduction and instruction which is excellent. Orienteering is going from one place to another on a prescribed route/course like a road-rally. My nephew from Australia does this as a family (3 small children) quite often. Stosh

Maybe if one were to toss out all the statistics and who created them, maybe we can all agree that an increasing number of scouts are having problems with parent/guardian situations that have an impact on about half the boys we have in our troops. So, does that mean: 1) BSA keeps itself a boy program? 2) BSA changes itself to a family oriented program? 3) BSA keeps it's traditional programming? 4) BSA changes it's traditional programming to accomodate the world in which it exists? 5) Does keeping or changing harm BSA more? 6) ????? Statistics are good for showing trends, not proving facts. Times change so how does one react? I have been camping for well over 50 years. At one time I could camp in a state park and be one of 4-5 units present. Now I have to make reservations a year in advance if I wish to make use of a state park. I have family camped, camped with friends, scout camped and camped with church youth groups. Yet with every different camping opportunity I availed myself with, a different kind of expectation was part of it. When I family camp it is not the same as when I scout camp. When I scout camped as a Boy Scout it is not the same as when I scout camp as a ScoutMaster. I can do many different emphasis on camping, but not at the same time. BSA needs to learn this process. Until BOY Scouts of America becomes Scouts of America, I'm going to assume the program is oriented to the boys and not their families. If one wishes to bond with their kid in a tent, take him camping. My father did and it was great. My father never attended a scouting outing and that was great too. Stosh

For the boys that don't have $100 GPS units, here's an even better scout oriented activity that beats geocacheing hands down! Got a compass? Got a map? Knock yourself out! http://www.rogain.ee/eng/index.php http://www2.aos.princeton.edu/rdslater/orienteering/definitions/rogaining.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogaining http://www.rogaining.com/index.html http://wa.rogaine.asn.au/ http://www.rogaining.jp/ http://www.us.orienteering.org/rogainecal.html Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I pick up small momentos from off of E-Bay. That way the boy knows he continues on with a piece of history that he now becomes part of and pass along to the next generation. My next Eagle gets a silver tie clasp with the Eagle on it. I have given knives, pins, etc. all of which appear to have been given originally to Eagle scouts. If nothing else, he has a gift then to give to his son when he makes his Eagle. Stosh

Pinkpooj finally found something that we might agree on, great tasting food. Once everyone agreed, his reason-d'etre ceased to be effective. Stosh

"The study was conducted by the General Social Survey (GSS) of the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. Statistics from both government and private sources clearly demonstrate the bad news: the percentage of kids who live with both biological parents, who remain married, has dropped precipitously from 73% in 1972 to 51.7% in 1998. The view from another perspective is equally disheartening. Twenty-eight years ago 45% of households consisted of married couples with children. In 1998, that percentage had fallen to 26%." This is not the study I was citing, I'm still looking for that information, but this study, even though it is 10 years old, indicates a number far less than the 67.8% of the US Survey. If the trend continued on it's declining scale, in 2008 the number would have dropped another 10-15% all things being equal. So without getting too wrapped up in statistical numbers, it's safe to assume that the majority of kids out there do not live with their married biological parents. While not as dramatic as the study I saw, it still shows an alarming trend that the BSA has to consider with it's programming, expectations, and focus. My apologies for a hasty original post, but the impact on BSA and it's program remains quite a challenge even when considering 10 year old data. Stosh

???? why not just sew a button on top of the flap and forego the buttonhole. Shut the pocket with the velcro and hang your patches on the button. Even if you don't have an OA patch, seeing a button in that location will be missed by most uniform police. If it's a problem sew another button on the other side. It always looks like the pockets are buttoned down nicely. 2-minute permanent fix. Stosh

Give out my secret recipes? NEVER!!!! Skeptic, contact me off forum, I'll give you the secret recipe because you're from CA. We use this recipe for our local competitions and don't want anyone getting the upper-hand at Camporees. Also, to go with your chocolate chili, it needs to be served up with a hot cup of hot-hot cocoa. Another special cocoa recipe with chili powder in it. My boys love it! Chocoloate chili doesn't surprise me one bit! Stosh

My figures were from a study done by the Lutheran Church in America who differentiated among those that have been identified by the US Census 67.8% live with married parents, but the church broke out those that lived with married step-parents. With the divorce rate as high as it is, this causes that blanket number to drop dramatically. This also means that the parent could be remarried by the spouse has not adopted the child as well which is common. There is also the situation where the child lives at one home of a married biological parent during the week (meetings) and is under custodial responsibility of the other married biological parent on the weekend (activities), again causing problems in the program. The issue being sought out by the study was not to identify children of married couples, but how many of them were unaffected by divorce, separation, and/or widowdom. The Cleaver Family model is no where near the 67.8% of the population and just because the parental couple of the child is married does not preclude other factors that the US Census does not take into account, all of which make an impact on the BSA program. Add to this problem the fact that June Cleaver did not work outside the home and all the dynamics of working parental availability further complicates the issue. With these issues identified, it is, in my opinion, not up to BSA to make adjustments for these many family issues when it is designed to provide a program for young men. Once all these other factors are considered and multiple attempts made to accomodate all the varying situations, it is the program for the boys that takes a backseat. And I find this unfortunate. I'm not judging the situation, I too am from a divorced situation and can only attest to the fact that my oldest daughter achieved the Silver Award GSA and not the Gold because she dropped out of the program without my support. My son dropped out of scouting at the rank of Star for the same reason, and my youngest daughter dropped out of Girl Scouts for the same reason. I'm sure there are a ton of others who fall into similar types of situations. No amount of programming changes on the part of BSA/GSA was going to help in this situation and to chase after it with family programs wasn't going to help either. Stosh

One can only hope. Stosh

If you're one of THOSE people out there that don't want to try my chocolate chip cheese cake, I'm going to hunt you down and do terrible things to you! Now, let me rephrase that a bit. Do you want a cup of coffee with your cheese cake? Stosh

Last time I heard the statistics, 7% of children live in a natural household of biological father and mother. 93% live in some other variation. With that being said BSA cannot cover all it's bases in a situation like this. I realize the big whiz bang idea is "family" camping, but what about the custodial mom who remarries and the non-custodial step-dad wants to bond with his step-son by sleeping in the same tent as him. Now what do you do? By the time the lawyers get through with this it's YPG is nothing more than paper with some writing on it. The only real solution to this whole problem would be let the boys have their own program and the parents stay home. If they are registered leaders they stay in their own tents and that ends the whole discussion. If the parents want to bond with their kids, join the YMCA or some other organization that isn't specifly a youth program. If there ever is an organization called Family Scouts of America (FSA) then they can make up their own rules on how they handle these situations, but BOY Scouts of America should be running a program for the boys, not their families. I camped with my family every weekend when I was growing up and went with the scouts when they had their program. My family went their own way on those weekends and let me hang with my buddies. That's why I joined in the first place. Stosh

Okay, that explains everything! I'm glad I asked. How about chocolate chip cookie cheese cake? Made in the Dutch oven of course. Stosh

Do I have this correct? If I think there is something different about someone else then I'm a bigot. If that be the case then I'm bigotted against people who can't eat chocolate. I'm bigotted against people who don't drink coffee. I'm bigotted against skinny people because my BMI says I'm over-weight by 2 pounds. Tomorrow I'm planning on being bigotted against over-weight people. It is always interesting to see bigotted athiests calling believers bigots and then whining that they aren't allowed in a club they wouldn't be interested in anyway. Homosexuals are bigotted against hetrosexuals, so why isn't anyone getting concerned except when hetrosexuals are bigotted against homosexuals? Why are athiests concerned about what BSA teaches? They don't agree with it anyway. The more I think about it the more I'm convinced I'm bigotted against bigots who don't think they are bigots. The really cool thing about the whole argument is that BSA's standards and norms rankle those who somehow feel like it's necessary for their mission in life to run down other people. Big people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Little people talk about other people. Ever notice how Scouters talk to Scouters and yet athiests talk to Scouters. Ever wonder why there are no Scouters on the athiest forums harassing them? I dont', they have more important things to do with their time. Look at the very first post, very first words, "I think that the BSA is totally bigoted, and in spite of this still is shown in a good light." To me this indicates first of all in spite of this gentleman's opinion, BSA is still shown in good light." I'm thinking that BSA has survived 100 years because it's a good program, not because of one man's opinion. And why in the world would a forum dedicate 5 pages of forum space to discuss one man's opinion that most don't agree with anyway. Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

And once again the discussion returns to conflict in the varying units. Parents vs. Leaders, Leaders vs. Scouts, Leaders vs. Council, etc. etc. etc. Speed Leas, and expert in Conflict Management, put out a simple chart to help identify conflict resolution and I'll pass it on because it has often times saved my butt in knowing what level we are at and how to handle it and when to move on and quit trying to salvage a lost cause. Level 1. (Basic Level) "John of Patrol A was picking on Fred of Patrol B." When explained, the problem is clearly defined and a resolution can be applied. Level 2. (Confusion Level) "Those two patrols are having problems." Already one cannot resolve this problem because no one knows which two patrols are having problems and what the problem is. Until the patrols are identified and the problem is clarified it cannot be resolved. Take it back to Level 1 Level 3. (Blame Level) Two patrols can't get along and it's the SM's fault for not taking care of it in the first place. Add some blaming into the process and one further complicates a complicated problem. Nothing is going to get resolved until blame is put aside and the problem clarified. Take it back to Level 1 Level 4. (Game Level) Sam (a parent of Fred who's getting picked on) likes to stir the pot and reports that the unit is falling apart and demands the committee get involved to resolve this problem. This isn't the first time that Sam has done this, but he really "enjoys" trying to run the show from the bleachers. Sam doesn't want anyone to leave because it would mean the game is over. Problems at this level will need an Act of God to resolve it. Unless Sam is willing to give up his games, this isn't going to go away. Level 5. (Divorce Level) Here is the level where the committee votes, bylaw reevalution takes place and other "legal" means are being used to oust someone whether it be the SM, a Scout, Sam, or whomever. People think the whole mess will go away if someone gets kicked out. Removing people doesn't resolve the problem, it just removes some of the people. Level 6. (Jihad Level) Here is the level where Sam will get someone kicked out even if it means he and his son's scouting career is destroyed in the process. Yeah, like this is ever going to get resolved. While we can all identify each of these levels, remember only Level 1 can ever be resolved, Levels 2-3 can be clarified down to Level 1 for resolution and Levels 4-6 basically cannot be resolved, time to move on to other greener pastures. How to avoid Levels 4-6? Never escalate to the next level, always work to get the problem back down to Level 1 to be resolved. In conflict situations the human tendency is to escalate to the next level rather than trying to get the problem back down to a level where it can be resolved. Stosh

While every tunnel has it's light at the far end, it's the journey in the tunnel that builds character. Too often people are so intent on reaching a goal they don't have time to deal with the tunnel. People who fit this category are simply surviving or running to avoid the problems instead of dealing with them. It is a known fact that unless a butterfly struggles to release itself from its cocoon, it will not survive. The strain of release is what is necessary to fully develop the wings. The journey is more important than the light. Those that rush through the process of getting their Eagle may in fact be missing the whole point of what Scouting has to offer. Stosh

If the unit has progressed to the point where voting is necessary to resolve issues then it's time for outside intervention. One needs to get the DE involved before the unit gets torn up. Obviously the process that is in place isn't working. Stosh