Stosh

It sets the example for the boys It sets the example for other adults It promotes Scouting in the community. I have had numerous people thank me for my work with the Scouts, they were all total strangers I met in restaurants and out in public while I was wearing my uniform either shopping with the boys for camping grub. I have had a young family of four with small kids pick up the tab on my dinner at the restaurant for both me and my date. I went over to explain that I wasn't military, and they responded, yes I know, you're a SM. End of story. The uniform has a lot bigger impact on the world around than what the wearer may think. People who don't wear the uniform do so for themselves, those that do wear it do so for Scouting. I have the only full uniform troop in our council as far as I know at this time. Stosh

Our elections are always hosted by Arrowmen. All scouts vote. It's a "civic" duty and being knowledgeable is not required. It's up to them to learn the candidates, just like any other election. I would never suggest the boys not vote. Stosh

The ones I saw had a BSA FC emblem on the heel with a series of MB's embossed all around the edge of the sole. Stosh

I saw a pair of these go on E-Bay for about $125 Stosh

My mistake, Barry, you used the word crew and I assumed you were making reference to my Venturing Crew, not a "crew" on Philmont trek. I had also made references to this thread or the other parallel one where I spoke about issues of safety for my Crew as well as my Troop, i.e. "crew", that was on a Philmont trek. As far as the rarity of such things, I have a packful of examples where there have been safety issues ignored and only by the grace of God those making the decisions got away with it. I'm a firm believer that God does watch out for the fools and unfortunates of the world. My apologies. Stosh

3000+ civilian deaths, one attack, isn't enough evidence to convince the people they are all walking around with a target on their chest? Fear is a great motivator and if people run around in a paranoid panic, that doesn't mean they don't have just cause to do so. Just like any boxer will tell you, keep your guard up at all times. I don't run around in a panic because for many years I assumed that there were those out there that support the Constitution's requirement that national security be responsible to the Federal government. When the Federal government abdicates that responsibility then I'll start worrying. If the elected leadership doesn't accept that responsibility then the people will have to do it on their own. Ever wonder why there's a run on gun shops lately? Maybe it's just fear of the unknown, but what if it's a fear of the known that motivates them? That's always a possibility, too. Stosh

Wrong call? 1) What was the distance to the Klondike? If it's just around the corner, maybe it wouldn't be a problem getting there 50 miles of driving?. 2) What was the terrain like? Flat? hilly? 3) What kind of roads would they need to cover? Rural gravel that hasn't been ploughed, freeway? 4) What kind of vehicles are involved? 4-wheel drive, SUV, sedans? 5) Do any/all of the drivers feel confident? 6) # of vehicles? 2? 10? Any pulling a scout trailer? I wouldn't try and second guess any SM decision without knowing the whole story and all the differing factors that he/she had to consider to make his/her decision. Without knowing the whole story, I'm going to assume the SM made the correct judgment. Stosh

"I'm not sure of Stoshes point other than giving an example of a worse case scenerio of a badly trained crew. In reality I think these kinds of situations and examples like Stoshes are rare." Gotta love these distorted observations by those who don't comprehend the point. First of all the crew members that are not allowed to participate are those that have not acquired the necessary skills to do the job safely. It has nothing to do with "badly trained". On the contrary, the high standard of training is what is keeping the boys from risk. Secondly, if it is rare that high quality training before sending a scout out is rare, then there are a ton of problems just waiting to happen. I would think that if a scout was highly trained in kayaking, was trained in navigation, safety, and equipment usage, that this does not automatically mean that if the boy can't paddle from point A to point B safely, there is something wrong with the training. It's a little like rank advancement, demonstrate a knot, let the boy stumble through it a dozen times and when he accidently provides the knot tied correctly, give him credit. Well, to me that is poor training and a substandard level of accomplishment. I want my boys to tie the knot every time I ask so that when it comes time for me to make a judgement as to whether or not they can handle a risky task, I can be reasonably sure they will be okay. If not it is my responsibility to pull the plug and say no, not this time. If I have an ASM that says he can handle a canoe and is a MB counselor for canoeing, can he prove himself on a lake? calm river? white-water? I know my limits, but do I really know the limits of those around me? Just because they have credentials doesn't mean the will be worth a nickel in an emergency situation. With what information do I take this into consideration when making a judgment call? It's a matter of what do I assume and what do I know. I go with what I know and assume nothing when it comes to my boys. I don't put my boys into dangerous situations unless I KNOW he can handle it. I have had boys walk off the reenactment field because they ended up standing next to an adult that was not acting in an appropriate manner. Not only was this boy trained correctly and to the highest standards, he could then in turn apply that knowledge to keep himself safe when I couldn't keep an eagle-eye on him every second. It takes more than training to get a boy to that point. Fulfilling requirements means more than just showing they know what they're doing, but taking that information and applying it means they can use that information to their benefit, other than just a patch on a shirt and a handshake at a COH. Stosh

Gee, how does one get elected if the majority of people vote against them? Then again, how does one ge re-elected if the majority of people vote against them? Looks like we're going to find out what a true savior of our people is all about. Ever wonder how those "stupid" people ever came to the conclusion that white, elderly, Republican males were the happiest people in America. Whiney people tend to be quite unhappy with their lot in life. Well, we've got 100 days under our belt and already the whiners are whining. What's up? Stosh

resqman, while I no longer hold such certifications, the experience of having been allows me to understand the results of poor judgment and it does cloud my decision making to fall exclusively on the safety side of every issue. Having had the experience of cleaning up after such poor judgments gives one the advantage of seeing all the what-if's that others often ignore. Your point is well made. One cannot avoid all the risks in all situations, but some legitimate evaluation will go a long way to minimize them, and to foresee some of the options available when they do go wrong. Stosh

I took my troop out on a whitewater canoe trip last summer. I was the only one who had experience on the fast water, so I took along another experienced canoeist/kayaker to back me up. She was not a registered leader. When we got to the headwaters, I announced to the boy's that in spite of the fact that we are boy-led, patrol-method, her word is LAW on the water. No discussions, just follow her instructions to the letter without question. Although we had all novices, we had no problem and when she gave directions on how to run rapids, what to do when the boys spilled, etc. they did exactly what she said and we all had a great time. I did not feel secure with the people I had as registered leaders so I brought in an expert to back me up. Without her, I would not have suggested the activity to the boys. After the trip she asked me to stop by her house and give the same "pep talk" to her kids. Stosh

Take a look at the Rogaining thread, it has some links to how that operates, it might be something that could do well to scale down for parent/son teams that might be very doable. Stosh

When considering #6 in my list, that means anyone can call a cancelation if they feel it necessary. Back in 2000 I was in Philmont on top of Baldy. A t-storm was rolling in and I (ASM) announced I was seeking cover and all the boys that felt it necessary were to follow me down to the tree line. About half the boys did. The SM and 2 other ASM's blew me off and laughed. I hussled down to the tree line, had the boys drop pack and assume the lightning position. There were three groups on the top when I left. The other two troops marched through my little group and laughed at my over-reaction to the situation. After a while the rest of my troop arrived. They were all standing there with their packs on making fun when a lightning bolt hit a tree about 25' away. Everyone standing hit the ground (including the SM), but it was a day late and a dollar short. I had my group quickly pack up and head deeper into woods before the storm had enough time to recharge itself for another strike. Remarkably, once the rest got up out of the mud, they hussled themselves along too. Needless to say the subject was never brought up again, but when I over-reacted any time after that, everyone always followed. Don't cha just love it when nature gives an excellent lesson with visual aids? To this day I can still feel my stomach churn every time I think about that day and what could have happened. Being lucky isn't the same thing as being prepared. Stosh

If a 17 yo PL can lead his boys on an adult-less activity, why all of a sudden once he turns 18 does it mean he can't? I train my boys to eventually be SM's in any troop they wish. Only myopic people around them will keep them from doing so. Stosh

I do believe that in the past that the national jamborees kinda floated around the country. Why does it have to always be at the same site? There are other groups around the country that organize large groups of people to come temporarily to an area, why can't BSA contact some of these to find out what is being done and then just pick a spot or advertise for bids and have people compete for a site like the Olympics do. Surely myopic leadership isn't always the best course of action. Of course there would be a bit more expected than a "Zip to Zap" approach to organizational needs, but there are plenty of organizations that know how this works. Stosh

They can also learn it just for fun. I did it with my Webelos boys and they had a great time "playing" with the compass and because there's no rules, they can also do a little geocaching along the way, maybe a treasure map? Gee, if it's for fun there's a ton of ideas the boys can do that doesn't expect some pin, belt loop or patch. Compasses are a natural! Stosh

The first two letters one must memorize to be Boatswain are I and R. Once you have that down the rest is easy. Welcome, Stosh

1) With my #1 priority in any situation, safety, that consideration is considered first for all participants especially the weakest link. 2) Then I re-filter the decision as to whether or not I have the personnel and resources to maximize that safety. Are all my bases covered for the obvious? 3) Then I re-filter again to see of there are any other "what-if's" out there that could cause more grief that I can handle. What possibly could go wrong? 4) Then I ask myself on what criteria am I making my decisions. Am I adding the wrong values into the formula, the boys won't have fun, the boys will hate me, etc? 5) Then I second guess myself. Maybe more than once. 6) Then I ask input from others. 7) Then I do a gut check. Is there any nagging doubts that haven't floated by my consideration. 8) Then I make a choice and pray it is best for the welfare of those I am responsible for keeping safe. If at any time along the process I get the least bit nervous, I bail out and cancel. And yes, I'm the guy that puts raw gunpowder in the hands of juveniles and expect them to walk around in a field where large bore cannons belch 50' blasts of flames while horses run around at full gallop. But I'm the same guy who will not be allowing 3 boys in my crew to stand quietly and fire a gun salute with blanks for Memorial Day with me standing 2' behind them, because they haven't demonstrated to me they can handle the situation properly and safely. Stosh

If it is our job to get boys ready for the real world, this issue speaks volumes. 1) There's always going to be conflict between personal choice and decisions of the group. 2) Sneaking a cell phone in where it's banned, school, scouts, theater, etc. is not a good choice for scouts to have to make. 3) In the real world conceal carry permit holders still are not allowed to take their guns on an airplane. 4) Compromise is not an option. 5) Tough choice, rules of the parents vs. rules of the troop. Should the scout have to make the choice? Every time someone tosses a pebble into a pond they are clueless to the impact that action makes. Sometimes the lessons we attempt to teach have adverse consequences on down the road. If one has a cell phone at a troop activity, it's not just a breaking of the rules, but also an issue of character development and the choices that are made and the consequences of such actions. In school, it may mean a reflection on the policies and respect for the educational system, and if it's a gun on an airplane it will probably mean federal prison time. How far does one push the issue to teach a child? Stosh

I'm thinking that if a moderator closes a thread it stays closed. Starting up another on the same topic it's heels is not very productive to the operation of the forum. Can we please be done with this? I come on the forum seeking insight and knowledge into running the various scout programs. I don't always agree with everyone and everyone doesn't always agree with me. It's not something that requires everyone to think the same as me in order to be a good thing. If two men were standing along side the road and witnessed a head-on collision and one reported the car from the left veered into the car on the right and the other said the car on the right veered into the one on the left, who would be right? Both! Totally opposite explanations and they can both be right. I never said they were both standing on the same side of the street. Stosh Thanks. Stosh

Once the conflict reaches level 5, there's nothing anyone can do about it in terms of resolution. Let it go and move on to a more beneficial and rewarding scouting experience. It's difficult to move on with emotional ties, but it can be done. This is a great opportunity for you and the other SM/ASM's. There are a ton of other scout troops out there that are seeking qualified leadership, it's a great opportunity for you if you look ahead at this point and not behind. Best of luck in your scouting. Stosh

I guess I don't see it as an issue of manners. It's an issues of responsibility. If a boy is carrying a cell phone for emergencies does this mean that the parents can't trust the adult leadership on the trip to do their jobs? When I have a group of boys with me it is my responsibility to insure their safety regardless of whether or not I carry a cell phone. If there is an emergency, is the leadership only there for backup? It speaks volumes as to how much that leadership can be trusted to do what is expected of them. Cell phone "courtesy" is nothing more than a smoke screen for lack of trust in the leadership of the troop. How do families with cell phone policies deal with school and church? I'm trying my best not to be judgmental in my comments but I think it's important to carry the thought process forward as far as possible and seek compromise on thoughtout issues on both sides. Yes, there are things one can do to develop responsible youth. My daughters never went off on a date without me first meeting the boy (even if it was at the door, but my daughters all learned quickly to do a meet and greet prior to the date and not rely on first impressions) and even then if it was a "nice boy" my daughters still carried their driver's license and cab fare in case they had to return home on their own. They had cell phones, but it wasn't required, they were taught to think on their feet and do the right thing. Stosh

Hey, BA and I finally agree on something! I have had the same experience with cell phones and homesickness. My tally is two scouts so far because of "borrowed" cell phones by homesick boys. Stosh

If a boy loses his Totin' Chit for improper use of his knife, he can still stay at an event, but without knife. If a boy loses his Electronics Chit for improper use of his cell phone, he has to return home immediately because he'll be breaking his family's rule. Sounds like a Catch-22 to me. If he doesn't have an Electonics Chit he can't go on any scout activities until he retakes the training? Sounds like a tough issue to deal with. Sounds a wee bit like over involvement in the boy's maturation process on the part of the parents. Albeit their responsibility, one could be losing a lot of scouts under these terms. Either/Or decision here has nothing to do with the cell phone, but between policies of the parents and the troop. Parents' policies always trump troop policies, but one is going to lose a lot of scouts in the process. One has to be prepared to accept this reality. A possible solution/exception might be for an adult to have the boy's cell phone in case the parents need to contact him and/or the boy needs to contact his parents. I know this places a heavier responsibility on the leadership of the troop, but it may allow for come compromise on both parties. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

The opening and closing should be consistant. If the leader places the flag on the table before the boys come and the boys gather around it for opening, then gather around for the closing and after the boys left, put the flag away. If there is a ceremony where the flag is brought out and presented formally, then retire it formally. There is no set ceremony for any of this, adopt a tradition and that should be fine. If one is a DL of a Webelos den, I would suggest finding out how the Boy Scouts where most of your boys will cross over to are doing it and then begin using that so the boys when they finally do cross over don't feel ackward during the ceremony. Stosh