Stosh
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Our parents are invited to attend any and all scout activities as observers. They can drive the boys to the event and back and observe the rest of the time. Because they are only observers they are not required any youth protection, safety afloat or safe swim training. If they wish they can go off to a hotel, stay in camp and loiter, or whatever, but because they are observing only they cannot participate in any activity except sitting around and observing. The minute they become "trainined" they feel there's an implied invitation to participate in some fashion. Why train them if the only expectation is to observe? If we are canoeing they can get their own canoe and stay in the general area to observe. The only exception to this whole process is when a non-swimmer is required to have their parent in the canoe with them. They are then required, per BSA rules. This has always worked well. It satisfies the parents' need to know and yet keeps them from interferring with the operations of the patrols. Stosh
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It doesn't take trained adults to take the NSP to summer camp. Most troops don't have 5 patrols so needing 10 adults isn't a problem but I know of a lot of troops of 20 that have 10 adults. Yes, I had boys attend two different summer camps this summer. If one is going to support the boys' program, they had better be prepared do whatever it takes to make it happen. If one is using the patrol method they had better be prepared to have a patrol go off and do something different from the troop. I do believe this is the ultimate goal. I don't feel I need to justify my boys' program, it works for them. It may not work in other troops, and that's fine. However, if some troop is having problems, my posts are just another option tossed into the ring of consideration. There are those out there that find out that beating one's head against the wall is quite painful and trying something else might be what they need. Thus I post as I do. Take it or leave it. I don't worry about it either way. Stosh P.S. I have 19 years unit leader experience, some of it as dual. 4 years Cub Pack Advancement Committee Member 2 years Webelos Den Leader 13 years ASM adult led troop 2 years SM boy led troop 11 years Crew Advisor So, yes, most of what I post comes from life experience. If you wish, I could also add the various other non-BSA youth leadership positions I have had that would bring that total to 41 years..... ;-)(This message has been edited by jblake47)
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Yes I do think in black and white. My boys know which way he wind blows and, yes, they can take my advise or reject it. Not a problem. Grey areas cause confusion and difficulties and the boys seem to prefer black and white from the adult leadership suggestions. They at least know where the road is. As far as not having enough adults, that's the Committee's problem and they should be expected to handle it. The SM needs resources to do the program, the Committee provides it. If the SM can't go and the activity is cancelled, it needs to be reported to the Committee immediately so the problem can be corrected by them in a timely manner. As far as long-range planning goes, it starts within the patrols, not the PLC. Each patrol is responsible for their annual plan. Then these plans are taken to the PLC where the details are worked out. All patrols want to go to camp? PLC works with the patrols and decides which camp and which week would work out best. If a consensus can't be worked and a patrol wants a different camp and week and they have 2 adults that will go with them, they go there. When a PLC decides and dictates this camp, this week and a patrol doesn't wish to go there, they simply stay home, find some other activity and eventually if this happens often enough, leaves the troop. Thus you have the older boys not wanting to go back to the council camp for the 5th time in a row that would prefer either going somewhere else or not going at all? I don't think putting these boys in a position of deciding not going at all is a good idea. With an age span of 11-17 in the troop why is it always the larger group (new boys) that always dictate to the older boys what's happening. Ever wonder why the older boys leave? I don't. Now take it the other way around, the older boys dictating to the younger boys and then we scratch our heads and wonder why the new boys don't make it through their first and/or second years. I don't. Young boys want to go to camp? Older boys want to do BWCA? CC is notified of this and it's their responsibility to come up with 4 adults. Everyone's got their responsibilities and both can happen. ASM in charge of new scouts and a parent take the young boys to camp. SM and Activity ASM go with the older boys to BWCA. I don't see the problem. And yes, single moms can go to summer camp just as easily as dads. I took a mom with me this past weekend on whitewater canoeing this past weekend. She was more experienced than most of the rest, brought "mom" treats and was treated like royalty. She didn't have to set her tent up, didn't have to cook and she had a great time. There are people out there who would love to be asked. Get your CC off his butt and start building connections and if there are no resources in the troop, start looking outside of it. It's part of their job! (This mom was not a mom of any of the boys in the troop! But she spoiled them anyway!) There are lot of people out there that would love to help the troop that don't have boys in the program. Ask them! What's the lesson we give if we tell them it can't be done! If adults are going to support a boy-led program, then just do it. I don't expect failure from my boys and my adults either. It's for the boys, make it happen! Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)
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Yes, if all the activities are limited to the availability of the SM and an ASM, the troop is not going anywhere and doing anything without them. It's not a price worth paying, nor is it an option worth living with. 1) The two leaders will quickly burn out and 2) many options of the boys will be limited. It's time for the Committee to investigate more adults available to assist with outings and rides. 2 ASM's can do just as well as the SM/ASM combo. As a matter of fact an ASM/parent works too. A roster of available adults for the boys to contact will go a long way to help them with THEIR activities. I have 4 weeks of vacation, next year two go to National Jambo, one goes to Summer camp and one goes to my church youth's mission trip. Doesn't leave me any time for myself. As I look over this, it never occurred to me that any of these activites would need to be cancelled because I wasn't available. I'm not that indespensible. There are always others out there that are able to help. Stosh
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Because of these kinds of testosterone combats, we do not have a PLC that "runs" the show. Competition is great between patrols, not between leadership. Our PLC views itself as the support mechanism for the patrols, not the other way around. The PLC's discussions revolve around what can WE do to assist our patrols be better. The collaborative approach builds teamwork better and no one gets bragging rights for wearing a SPL patch. Support rather than domination doesn't allow much room for prima donnas. Many scouts want to run the show, but very few want to actually roll up their sleeves and actually do some helping others. When you get a scout willing to do that, you will begin to see some great results. The tone of the PLC revolves around, "Okay, patrol leaders, how's it going and what can we do to help you make it better." rather than, "I'm running the show and this is what I've decided we're going to do this year." Without consensus and ownership, this approach is doomed. Stosh
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Huh? I'm lost on this. The adults coordinate, plan, and execute the program because of their calendar constraints? I don't think so. Part of being boy-led is the responsibility of the boys to coordinate with the adults, calendar dates, logistics of travel and equipage. "Mr. B, we're looking at the first week of July for summer camp. What does your calendar look like for that week?" Is this any different than a group of adults calling you up and saying, "Hey, Joe, we're all planning on heading up to Canada for fishing the first week in June. You got your calendar open?" Nope, sorry, you'll all have to pick a different date or stay home. Yeah, right! As long as they have appropriate adult requirements fulfilled, for their trip, it's a go for the event. If it's a truly boy-led program, minimal adult input is required and mostly just fulfills 2 adult bodies at the event requirement on the tour permit. If your boys can't be trusted when the SM isn't around, then there's something more seriously flawed than the calendar. Stosh
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How can we better emphasize self-reliance?
Stosh replied to sherminator505's topic in Open Discussion - Program
What's wrong with letting them fail, stumble, etc. My SPL's nickname is Slug because he was basically lazy and didn't want to do any work. I called him that in front of the other boys. He was mad and walked out of the meeting, but came back the next week (yes, his dad was in the room). About half way through the meeting he got the nom-de-guerre once more for his attitude. Again he left early, but returned. The third time he got right in my face and told me in no uncertain terms he didn't appreciate it. I asked him what a slug was. He said it was a small, slimy, dumb creature. I said, No, it's short for sluggard or someone who is too lazy to look up the word in the dictionary....he was speechless. He's my best champion of the boy-led, patrol-method program and will be 3rd ASM for the council's 2nd contingent at National next summer. I'm not here to build self-esteem, I'm building self-confidence and self-reliance and there is a big difference. Self-esteem is built by multiple, repetitive successes. Self-confidence and self-reliance is built by struggle, adversity and failure. To think one is going to reinforce self-reliance without failure is an activity of futility. The sweetest words a SM hears is, "I screwed up, Mr. B, but I'm fixing it as we speak." No excuses, no blaming, no whining, just growth and understanding. I'd rather have 10 scouts that aren't afraid of failure than 100 who don't try because they are too scared. Self-Reliance? = I know I can do it, if not, I can always fix it as I learn. Stosh -
How can we better emphasize self-reliance?
Stosh replied to sherminator505's topic in Open Discussion - Program
"A good friend, former leader and Eagle Scout from WV in the 60's likes to tell me about his SM (who he still visits) who would just announce at the end of the meeting, "our next campout is the weekend of 15 Sept at XXX Camp". And not another word was mentioned (by him). Then sit back and see what happens. Never had the guts to try that in my troop...don't like camping alone." LOL! I do this all the time! Last June I said I was going whitewater kayaking and if they wanted to go, the bus leaves at 5:00 pm, on Friday on such-and-such a weekend. I got no takers. I don't think they believed me. When I told them I had gone and had a great time, they could see I don't kid around about such things. 3 weeks ago I threw out the same challenge and this past weekend we had 5 scouts and 3 leaders go. Next May I'm expecting even more. One will never develop self-reliance in a boy unless one puts the "ball in his court" and has the courage to follow through on the threat/promise. Stosh -
Best time for W-2 to bridge to a BS Troop
Stosh replied to WestCoastScouter's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Two of the packs in our town cross over the Webelos boys right after their Blue/Gold banquets (Feb/March). The boys are thus in Webelos for 1 1/2 years. The other pack waits until the year finishes out and the boys are getting ready to start school in the fall (now, Sept). These boys are in Webelos for a full two years. It makes it difficult for the troop to make adjustments for the differential, but it's for the boys after all. As far as which is better? The Feb/Mar boys get an opportunity at summer camp, but the Sept boys have a lead time on the Webelos boys coming in the following Feb/Mar. Although they are the same ages, they are not in sync with each other until they all reach the higher ranks. It would be better if it was either/or rather than both. Stosh -
As the SM of the troop, I do not set any goals, but I do draw the boys' attention to the guidelines of the BSA program. Within that confine, the boys are free to set their own personal, patrol and troop goals. Each troop, patrol and individual has the BSA directive to establish goals reflective of their skills, talents and personal preferences. It is my "job" as a SM to assist the boys in obtaining those goals and inspire and challenge them to push their envelopes. When they are frustrated, I assist them to work out solutions, when their bored, I suggest new opportuities. What totally amazes my boys is the openness of opportunities this provides. Jokingly they once told me that they wanted to "canoe the Yukon". My only comment was, "Sounds good, when were you expecting to go?" If BSA feels it's ok to travel anywhere in the world for a World Jamboree, surely the Yukon would be a valid goal for the boys. After the meeting last night my SPL approached me about one of the boys. He said this boy showed some leadership promise (I was in agreement with this)and he wanted to work directly with him. My SPL is 17 and the boy he was referring to was a new scout aged 11. The SPL was "okay" for him to assist this new scout in recruiting a patrol for him out of the Webelos II that was just finishing up and mentoring the young lad for a year until he, himself, aged out. Now, all the SM's out there that can't get their older boys to work with their younger boys, eat your heart out! Could I as SM ever envisioned this as a goal for the troop? Never in a million years! Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)
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Prerequisites for Leadership Positions
Stosh replied to Buffalo Skipper's topic in The Patrol Method
I've been busy lately so I haven't been on the forum except to lurk a bit here and there. It's summer, ya know, and I haven't figured out a way to plug my laptop into a tree yet. We had a blow-away summer experience. Boys didn't like the council camp so they went on the internet found another camp, registered, organized it all and we went. It was like walking back into time 50 years. Campsite cooking by patrol, huge lake, no pool, no messhall, caring staff. Boys voted unanimously to return there next year. No adult was involved in any of the camp program this summer except to drive the boys there and drink lots of coffee once we got there. It was awesome! Crew is getting ready to leave for a national reenactment this weekend. I have been so busy doing nothing it has been fantastic. Just got back yesterday from a troop whitewater kayak/canoe outing. It rained, it was cold and it was fantastic! Once one gets to boy-led, be prepared to be busy! They can come up with some pretty great things if the adults don't interfere. Stosh -
In my troop EVERYONE is referred to as Mr. _________ youth and adult alike. When a parent is a registered leader he is Mr. ________ 1 and his son is Mr. ________ 2, 3, etc. depending on the number of sons. In my Crew everyone is referred to by their rank in the hobby. I am Capt. _________. I have adults that hold the rank of Private and youth that hold the rank of Sergeant. Depends on their earned rank. The crew officers are not referred to. I.e. Private __________ might be president of the crew and Sergeant _____________ doesn't hold a crew officer position. Stosh
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How can we better emphasize self-reliance?
Stosh replied to sherminator505's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I constantly emphasize that unless a boy can take care of himself he doesn't deserve to be first class regardless of whether or not his has the patch on his shirt. If he can't take care of himself he surely can't take care of his buddy either. That also translates into he can't take care of a spouse so he'd better not plan on ever getting married. If he takes on a POR i.e. PL, if he can't take care of a few others besides himself and a buddy, then he can't take on a patrol, and that also translates into he can't can't take care of a family either, so don't plan on any kids. My boys are constantly reminded that what they are learning isn't just for scouts, it's the lessons he's going to need to be successful in marriage, family, work, school, sports, church, etc. He is told to either give it try now while you're young or wait until you're 18 and the world around you will force you to learn it the hard way. Those that don't want to accept this challenge are usually just along for the fun and the other boys know that they are going to have to babysit them through the program. Stosh -
Prerequisites for Leadership Positions
Stosh replied to Buffalo Skipper's topic in The Patrol Method
All our boys equally have the same opportunity to be in a position of leadership. There are no prerequisites or rules placed in the way of that opportunity. If a boy wants to be a PL, it is suggested he go out and get a patrol. I had one boy "serve" as a PL with no members. He went to 2 Blue/Gold Banquets and attended several Webelos meetings and worked hard until he got a patrol of 6-8 boys. Now he's responsible for following through on his promises made to those boys. Another boy asked if he could be an instructor. He's working on lesson plans for the boys coming in next winter after the Feb/Mar Blue/Golds. Is he currently an instructor with no one to teach? Yep. Same as a person that works the summer months getting ready for school to open in the fall is still called a teacher. Opportunities and goal setting are two vital skills of leadership. I don't see it in my job-description to stifle this process with rules. On our outing this past weekend we dragged out a number of tents at 10:00 pm Friday night after a long 4 hour drive to get to the site. It was raining. Tents were pulled open and some no stakes, some poles were broken, others had no ground cloths. There was no water jug to haul water in, there were no kitchen equipment brought along. The SPL did throw in the troop first aid kit. The boys struggled all the way through the weekend. By Sunday afternoon on the long drive back, the discussion revolved mostly around the need to have a good Quartermaster for the equipment. I was busy driving so I wasn't part of the discussion. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47) -
We needed some special equipment that another troop in the area had that we could borrow. I suggested to my SPL that he contact that troop and ask if we could borrow it. The other troop was adult-led. He went to their meeting in order to ask in person and to check out the adult-led program. Everything worked out just fine and when he came back the only thing he said was that he was even now more than ever appreciative of the boy-led, patrol-method program. One of the problems with this "definition" is who you ask. If you ask adults they will generally all say their boys lead the program. But just ask the boys, you'll often get a different answer.
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I use the sounding board approach. I'm there to offer suggestions as to what they think went wrong and then work with them to look creatively at other options they can consider for the next time. I ask questions to encourage after activity review and work at leaving suggestions as to what they might want to consider for next time. It makes no never-mind to me what they then choose to resolve their issues. The only time I directly involve myself with an issue is in a safety issue. I have also been requested by the boys to teach leadership training on occasion. Stosh
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At Philmont our boys took tents because they were forced to by Philmont staff. The bears were particulary bad that year and somehow Staff felt that these nylon tents were going to be more of a protection than sleeping out under the stars. We took the tents but used them once when the weather threatened. The rest of the time they all slept under the big sky tent. Stosh
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I just returned from a camp that was brand new for our boys. We had tried patrol-method in a troop-method camp and it was a fiasco. Needless to say, our boys voted unanimously to return to this new camp next year. 1) No mess hall, all cooking in camp site. Commissary issued food by patrol sizes 2) HUGE camp site, we could have had 8-10 patrols all 200' apart with no problem! 3) Programming started at 9:00 am, 2 hour break for lunch and supper. Menus designed to be prepared in the 2 hour time allotment. 4) Equipment was given out by patrol request, i.e. number of tents, stoves, flies, etc. 5) MB blue cards used and backed up with camp records. The difference between this camp and those we have attended before (4 different camps in my experience) is the mindset of patrol-method. Any camp that has to go out of their way to accommodate the patrol-method is not going to be successful at it. Stosh
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One has to understand the program AND the processes necessary to get the appropriate results. As many on the forum know I have both a Troop and a Crew. I run them totally different and would never think for a moment that either of them should be run like the other. I am 100% boy-led, patrol-method with my troop, but I run a military, iron-fisted, no questions with the Crew. The nature of the Crew is unique because of it's program (Civil War Reenacting) I am president/captain of the Chartering Organization and the boys "fall in" with the CO just like any other member of the group. The process of leadership works because half of my group's NCO's are from the Crew and are often better trained than the CO members. Mentally I have to switch gears and understand fully what the emphasis/goal/aims are with the group I happen to be with. Many ex-military cannot make the switch and thus don't even realize that there is a difference. It's kinda like the military dad running his family like he does his squad. It just doesn't work. It may take a bit more than a cup of coffee and a chat to help these people see the difference. Stosh
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Recruiting active members from other troops
Stosh replied to Stosh's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I'm not complaining about the program, just the idea that it's ok to recruit from other troops. If the boys are unhappy, fine, move on to a troop that meets your needs. But if the boys are doing well, enjoying the program and leave because one of their buddies had to move to another troop, is kinda ethically questionable in my mind. My troop will do just fine, the boys are having a good time with their program and we'll produce a couple of Eagles in the coming months. I can't complain and I'm not concerned about "growth and development" of a boy-led program, the boys will figure it out and do just fine. If all the boys want to do is be baby-sat by adult led programs, it's probably a good thing they move on to another troop, they'll be quite unhappy having to work their ticket in a boy-led program. Stosh -
Recruiting active members from other troops
Stosh replied to Stosh's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I guess I wasn't very clear. I have a troop of about 15 boys, the other troop is +40. They are extremely adult led, about as many adults as boys. I am boy led and up until recently had 2 adults working with the boys. Me, the SM and one ASM as my two-deep leadership. The first two boys that left went because they had brothers in the other troop and it was difficult to run two troops for the parent/leaders. So the parents decided to pull their boys from the boy led program to the adult led program because things ran smoother with the adults doing all the work. One of the two boys broke ranks originally because all his buddies went with my troop. Now that he's gone, he's recruiting the rest of the boys to follow with him. Of the two feeder cub packs, 17 went with the adult led program and 5 came to the boy led program. It's really difficult to compete with boys vs. adults. They have the numbers and adult interested parents that keep them in a program where the two can "bond". I left the adult led program a couple of years ago and took on the boy led program with only 5 boys. I was very careful not to take any boys with me and discouraged them from changing just because I was changing. I was hoping to make sure there wasn't any problems for the two troops in the future, but this gesture was not recipricated and now the promises made by adults seem to draw the boys into a program where they simply sit back and enjoy vs. having to roll up their sleeves and do some leadership/work. Both 3rd ASM's for our council's contingent to National Jambo come from units I have led. I was also selected over the SM of the other troop but because of the reputation of the troop and experiences with him leading a prior Jambo, he was passed over. I know the program works, but it's really difficult to convince boys of the long term benefits vs. the short term excitement. Stosh -
Looking for feedback. What recourse does a SM have when he witnesses boys leaving their troop then recruiting their buddies to follow with them to the other one? Stosh
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I measure leadership only with the idea of "caring". Obviously the other senior "leadership" doesn't "care" thus shows no leadership. If you "care" then step and and lead, it's obvious that the troop needs scouts that show "caring" leadership. It's the only valid measurement of leadership in my book. If you "care" more about your image than leading, then you don't really "care" about the troop. If the word caring in relationship to others seems to be popping up in the conversation, then I'd take it seriously and step up and lead. It sounds from your original post that "caring" seems to be motivating you in the first place. Stosh
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My sister tells the story of a friend of hers whose mother (70+ years old) from Norway came to visit. They both have ajoining homes on a lake and when mom was on the dock taking in the beauty of the view said it would be great to take a swim. My sister and friend turned to go get their swim suits and mom stripped down and jumped in. The daughter said, "Just like the old country", stripped down and joined her mother and my sister, thought "what the heck" and they all had a great time. How does one handle BWCA? One latrine and no walls. Got to be a challenge taking a co-ed Venturing crew up there. Stosh
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This summer will be my fourth different camp in 4 years. The camp was researched, signed up, registered, fees collected, menus planned by my boys. I just line up rides.... There's more to the journey than just the destintation. Stosh