Stosh

I never did. Stosh

If you are further down the road than you were last year, or last week for that matter, you are winning. Just keep working at it. Once the boys figure out they are allowed full ownership of the process/program it'll take off and fly on its own. Not all the boys will come to that realization at the same time, but it only takes one and then he influences the next and it's like dominoes. We meet in the American Legion hall and every time we come the room is rearranged differently. Each patrol drags one of the tables off to a separate corner and "sets up camp" for the evening. The flag stands are dragged out of the closet and set up in the most open space of the room, wherever that may be. You have the luxury of having a separate place for your troop. I would be nice, but somehow our boys have figured out how to separate themselves out and get their work done within the limits given. Our patrols have no "home" to take ownership of, but it would be nice some day to have them pick certain spots each week, but with a patrol flag, it's really not all that necessary. Some CO's like churches and schools have Scout Rooms. That would be nice, but it'll never happen for us. When the American Legion meets and needs the room, we have a table down in the basement next to the furnace we can use instead of the big room. I guess that would be the "Scout Room". Stosh

I don't know if these kinds of comments are attempts to push my buttons or what, but it doesn't work. I have had some of the best scouts, adults and youth from a variety of different program try their best and it doesn't work. It's an just a little story to indicate that if the Scout doesn't care about scouting, no amount of prodding, cajoling, bribery, threats or force from SM, ASM, peers, parents, or innocent by-standers is going to have an impact on changing the Scout's mind. The only person that can make such a change is the Scout himself, and it has nothing to do with the kind of car it is, nor whether or not it is a manual or stick transmission, or whether it needs diesel, regular, unleaded or high-octane fuel/gas(oline)/petro(leum) or an outlet to plug in. Unfortunately a lot of people don't realize it and force their boys to continue with programs that they have no interest in and eventually the boy is going to rebel and there will be problems. Stosh

Of course there are two "classes" in scouting. You have boys/scouts that are participants in the program and then there are the adults/scouters that administer the program. Just because there are immature adults out there doesn't make the distinction any less evident. I know of boys that are more mature than some adults I've met, but the name of the game for me is to get the boys ready for adulthood when they turn 18 and move on in their scouting career, or any other career for that matter. The distinction offered up by our society is also different and reflects the program that exists within this society, yet I don't always adhere to the appropriate social norms. For example, all my "boys" are referred to by their title with Mr. preface to it. They don't get that level of recognition from society, but they do from me in my programs. I don't treat them any different from the adults in the program, except the adults are more stricted than what the boys can do. I had a scout totally organize our summer camp experience this past summer. He was 15 years old doing what normally is done by an ASM in most other troops. He found a camp that met the troop needs, contacted them, registered the boys, signed them up for MB's and collected the $$'s to go. So, did I treat this scout as a presumed second-class citizen in the troop? I doubt it. Did I put undue pressure on him to do more than what most scouts are expected to do? Yep, and I'll do it again. My Venturing Crew is even more aligned to an even playing field. This past weekend we did a reenactment. My other advisor wanted to keep the Crew segregated from the other adults. When it came time to start the activity the command was given (by ME as Captain), "Fall in, by height" I have some short and tall scouts, but they were all treated the same. I didn't say fall in by age, or fall in by crew here and everyone else there. This all occurs because I move boys to men in the process of developing the program. Some move quickly through the stages, others take more time, but the process is the same for all. Just about every parent has at one time or another thanked me for not singling their child out and treating them as such. I don't care if the reenactor is 14 or 40. When they stand there, fully trained with a weapon in their hand loaded with blackpowder, there is no age distinction, and my boys appreciate it and rise to the occasion. I don't coddle the boys either just because they are "boys". We had an Iron Chef cook-off this past weekend during our reeactment and the Crew wanted to participate. I said yes, knowing full well the first place prize was a bottle of whiskey. They skinned their squirrel, peeled their potatoes, roased their squash and did every thing that was expected of them. Had they won, we would have addressed the problem at that point, but they didn't, BUT they got their chance along with everyone else at the activity. It would have been a lot easier to just say no, they can't because the prise is alcohol. So, I stand by my statement. When these 11 year-olds cross over into my troop, they are raw, green, and immature. The faster I can change that, the stronger a boy-led program is going to be. As I have said on this forum, I have problems of discipline occasionally and some of the worst have been drinking/eating in tents and such infractions that most would say they are "minor". I expect all my scouts to be "mature adults". If they are just starting out as a Webelos cross-over scout, I still expect it. The surprising thing is that in most cases, I get it. Scouts will rise to the level of expection if given the chance. If they screw up and one treats them like a kid, they will react in kind. I do not distinguish any difference between Scout and Scouter except those demanded by BSA. And I attribute my record on very little need for discipline on this lack of distinction. Stosh

Buffalo: I'll get the name of the book when I get home this evening. TheSource: You hit the nail on the head. The older boys are bored and it is an open invitation to cause problems. Keep them busy, have them organize an older boys only activity, Life only maybe, and keep them so busy they can't find time to screw around. This keeps them busy and segregates them from the younger boys so they won't be influenced. It also gives motivation for the younger boys to progress so they can get involved in the older boy activities. My boys are constantly complaining because they have so much to get done to keep the program going. Right now they are activitly involved in: 1) Planning meals for next year's summer camp. (Patrol Method, cook in-site) 2) Cub Scout Spookaree this weekend and the menus/equipment necessary to go. 3) 2 Eagle projects 4) Popcorn sales 5) Wreath sales 6) Recruiting new scouts with an open house (the following weekend) 7) Advancement for the new boys 8) Annual Activity planning session 9) Youth Leadership Training 10) Organizing a crew to help with Community Thanksgiving dinner 11) Putting up with adult leaders who won't lift a finger to do any of this. It is well known in our troop that if you are so uninvolved in our troop so as to stand around with your hands in your pockets, you must be volunteering for something to do. When someone walks into any of our activities they are quick to notice all the older boys that are stand around will have their arms folded and the younger boys with their hands in their pockets. Stosh

One can enlist the help of all kinds of people, teachers, peers, other scouters, but until the boy cares about scouting, one isn't going to gain much ground. Getting more people to push will get the car down the road quicker and easier, but it still isn't going to do much to get the car started if it's out of gas. Stosh

Recently I purchased a small book of one page mysteries, that the boys have to pay attention to in order to gather up all the information and solve the mystery. The first couple of times there were small interferences that caused some of the boys to miss important clues and lost out on winning the prize for solving the mystery. I read the mystery at opening flags and they have the meeting to discuss it amongst their patrols and then ask for their solution at closing flags. Now I have total silence during these times and everyone pays attention. After the first time this happened, I stopped half way through the reading and commented that rapt attention and uninterrupted total silence IS POSSIBLE. Now when I walk up to make announcements, I pull my little book out, they quiet down, I do the announcements uninterrupted and then do the mystery. Boys that are bored will act up. I work at ways to avoid this. I had one boy that was always acting up and as expected he was told to come sit next to me. All boys know this is the best way to get up front of the group were the speaker is and gets a more focused opportunity to screw around. However, every time he began to act up I just continued to talk, but I put my hand on his forearm and he'd pay attention. I did this for a couple meetings and now he can pay attention from any location in the room. I don't touch him, but I look at him and give a quick wink to let him know I'm not letting his behavior interrupt me. Sometimes a little attention from the SM is better than a whole room of scouts. Usually these boys are starved for adult attention at home and through some quiet and simple gestures one can address this issue while they are at a scout meeting. One just has to decide who's going to run the show, you or the disruptive scout? Stosh

While having a soda in a tent seems trivial to some, one has, as others have pointed out, a need to look further down the road than just today. A soda or food in a tent will draw animals. While we are not in heavy bear country, a mouse can go through the side of a nylon tent like a hot knife through butter. This long-range thinking is what leadership is all about. What one does today has consequences well into the future. While smoking pot may be illegal and stupid on a camp out, it is not as dangerous as leaving a chocolate candy wrapper or spilling a soda in a tent that will leave odors for the next trips and would cause more harm for any boy sleeping in it while in bear country. Until a boy realizes the potential of his decisions, he will opt for the instant gratification of the moment. Distinguishing between these two is an opportunity for mentoring leadership to explain this and assist the boys in their leadership development rather than just turning over the discipline to others to administer without any learning opportunities along the way. Drinking a soda in a tent is not going to draw in the police, but what kind of discipline and forethought went into the boys that find it acceptable to throw butter knives at each other or smoke pot on an outing? Surely a minor infraction with a teaching/counseling moment on a lessor issue may have avoided the greater problem later on. As a CampMaster one summer I had to disarm two brothers going at each other with sheath knives in a standard sized wall tent. Not my cup of tea, but what could the SM done to educate these boys long before the incident occurred? By the time the situation degraded down to a knife fight, surely there were signs and symptoms showing long before the incident. Soda and Honey Buns in the tent? Either it's a learning opportunity or it's an opportunity for the SM to blow it off as "boys will be boys". If I'm responsible for leadership development, maybe a "big stink" about Honey Buns may head off a more serious infraction later on. Boys will always test the boundaries. Where do we as leaders begin to push back? Minor issues that we handle right away or major issues and then turn it over others to deal with when we have neglected our responsibility? Boys will be boys, but we are not responsible for perpetuating boys, we are to assist them into mature manhood and appropriate choices in their lives. Stosh

It's his project. I know for a fact that there are no minimum hours. His dad knows for a fact that there are no minimum hours (my ASM and has experience as SM before moving into the area). But until the boy asks us, he's going to have to figure it out on his own. I didn't suggest he ask me for advice, but I did suggest he start with the national website and work from there putting together his research and then go back to the committee with information to make a case. His dad was in full agreement with me and so I'll keep everyone posted as to how he resolves HIS problem with HIS project. The scout is a bit head-strong and has refused in the past to ask anyone for help. Maybe this experience will change his mind about how he resolves problems in the future. Stosh

An Eagle candidate came to me last night with what he called a speed bump in his project. The Council committee would not accept his project because he had not put 30 hours of his own time in on it. He had 120 man-hours but personally he put most of his time into planning and supervising and with a large crowd turn out, it didn't take very long. It was cleaning up and landscaping a church construction site so it was a big project. He just did a great job of planning and organizing. He put 24 hours down on the project. Now this begs the question: does he fudge his numbers or fight the system. I asked him what he thought of it and he said he didn't know of any such rule in any of the material he got from BSA. I suggested he research the info and make a presentation when he goes to turn the project in again with all supporting documentation and be prepared to appeal it through the proper channels which he will also have to research and anticipate. So does all this extra work on his part because the Council can't read and understand BSA policy count towards his hours? Stosh

When I came into the troop I currently serve, I announced that I do not use "sign's up" to get their attention. Instead I wait for them to quiet down and my PL's quiet their boys with a hush or the "look". I have told them that "sign's up" is just way of me interrupting them so I don't use it and ask them not to interrupt me then when I have something to say. This process has worked well for the two years I have been SM. When I walk to the front to address them, they quite themselves very quickly and so I have had no "reason" to ever use it. When we have speakers, the PL's generally "enforce" the hushing/looks and it's rather remarkable how well the boys pick up on it. I'm not saying it's perfect, but when a boy or two gets a little disruptive, I merely stop and wait for them to finish. Usually the PL's address the issue and then I continue with no big fuss or bother. Most of the time disruptions are means by which boys seek attention and negative attention is just as good as positive. However, negative attention from peers does have a quelling affect that negative attention from adults can't do. I have noticed that even if a boy raises a hand while I'm speaking, his PL will give him a quiet, "Wait until he asks for questions." so as to not disrupt the speaker. If I see this happen, I speak a bit more and then take a specific question break at an appropriate place. Now the boys just raise their hand until I look their way and then put it down to wait for the break. Thus their respectful silence can be encouraged by taking a break they have signaled for. When a boy is teaching a lesson to his patrol/troop, it is understood that from, "Hi, my name is..." to "Any questions?" he is to be respected with attentive behavior. If he is interrupted, he just stops as I have given example and waits until the group quiets down and he continues. Like "sign's up", it is just a less intrusive method we use to accomplish the same thing. Stosh

Hmmm... The picture our local paper took of an Scout doing his Eagle Project show him astride a 4-wheeler pulling a large log out of a pond. He is in full uniform with necker and hat. He did have his sleeves rolled up, but his shirt was tucked into his uniform pants. By the way, it was not a posed photograph, he was in uniform for the whole day directing the park clean up. It is possible to look nice at all times and especially when one is doing a posed photo op. Stosh

We only have 3 rules: 1) Safety First 2) Look and act like a Scout 3) Have fun The boys have all agreed they are good rules and enforce them by peer pressure. #1 can be enforced by anyone at any time #2 is usually enforced by the boys #3 is often applied in cases of homesickness or boredom Stosh

Thanks for the geography lesson. Yes, I meant NE not KS. My apologies to all the Jayhawkers out there! Stosh

"We laid out for him all the things he needed to improve on and be doing and that he had to be EXTREMELY active and engaged for 4 months to make up for 4 years of coasting and his mom running interference." Where's the leadership in that process? The adults solve the problem and tell the boy what hoops to jump through. He gets no lesson in leadership. When my slackers get an earful from me they get no "solution" to their problems. My "Slug" was not "instructed" in what he had to do to get his act together, but he was left alone to think, ask, learn and develop, all initiated by HIM not some adult dictating what he had to do. When my Eagle Scout quitter made it evident that this is what was going to happen, he was given the task of letting me know what he recommended I say to the EBOR when they asked me for a recommendation, which they traditionally do. He stood there and didn't say anything. I stood there a full minute waiting for an answer. I then said, "Okay then, silence it will be. Thank you." And I haven't heard any new suggestions from the boy since, but he does continue to come and lead his patrol activities. Once the onus of leadership falls on the scouts, they are responsible for developing solutions to their problems, planning out their actions and fulfilling their commitments. They can do any and all of this without adult interference. Adults are open to and provide support for THE BOYS' decisions and efforts. My boys all know my pet phrases, "best leaders are the best followers", "safety first", "those that fail to plan, plan to fail", "lead by example", etc. Then when they screw up, I don't have to spend a lot of time pointing this out to them. They know they screwed up and they know why. I have had boys then ask what they need to do to fix things and make them better the next time. They never get told what they have to do. Every phrase used by me and my ASM's all need to start with, "You might want to think about...." or "If it was me, I'd..." or "I don't know, what do the boys in your patrol think..." or some variation which may offer some guidance, but leaves the true onus of leadership on the boy. Once the adults begin to see these older boys as peers in leadership, they tend to want to hang around. If the SM is nothing more than a pseudo-parent/teacher/coach/pastor in a brown shirt, they always have the option to leave at anytime. Can't do that at home, school or church, but they can surely do it with scouts. We all know why they leave, but do we know why they stay? Stosh

I love the spin: Zero Tolerance. Why don't they just use the word: intolerance. Our society which at one time was tolerant of others and accepting of their differences (kinda like an archaic form of "Diversity")is now a fractured society each exploiting whining their own version of intolerance. What this has evolved into is a petty game by which our factions have degerated down to the "Mommy, he's looking at me" levels of maturity. I once learned that sticks and stones may break my bones, but the whining words of intolerance and the lessons of intolerance (aka, Zero Tolerance) are being imprinted into our youth at an alarming rate and with words alone are being translated into sticks and stones and they are doing it at an ever younger age. It may be the latest idiocracy, but it's rapidly becoming the accepted norm. Then it won't be as funny tomorrow as it may strike one today. Zero tolerance is the first step in developing organized hatred based on fear of others who are different. I am 59 years of age, I have carried a BSA pocket knife almost every day of my life since I was 9. It has only been in the past couple of years that people have begun to question my practice of 50 years. Just last week when I opened a package that came into work someone asked me if the people in HR knew I carried a weapon to work. I said, probably not because they haven't hassled me. Later that same day I get a visit from HR asking about the "weapon" I had in my possession. I asked them which one, my steel-toed boots that would do some serious damage, a wad of keys if exposed between fingers would also do some serious damage, or my belt which could choke someone to death, or the pen, scissor (3.75" blade), letter opener (2.25" blade) that was on my desk, I could stab some or maybe the BSA whittling knife with a 2.25" blade I use to open boxes with? (Company policy allows for pocket knives of less than 2.5") After reviewing my entire arsenal of weapons, I suggested with heavy sarcasm that maybe they meant to check out our safety manager because I saw a number of those box cutters, like they used to hijack the 9/11 airplanes, lying next to his keyboard. I knew he was checking out a number of different models for their safety aspects. Yep, they marched in perfect lock-step down there to check him out too! Schools are not exempt from such stupidity, it's pandemic in all aspects of our society. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Highcountry, Unfortunately that makes him an excellent follower, but not a leader. Most boys excel in following and doing what they are told by their parents, their coaches, their pastors, their teachers, etc. But none of that makes them a leader. How does one measure leadership when all the boy does is follow directions? Stosh

I never said the outcome would be any different, just the style of discipline one takes to get there. The discussion is on discipline, not outcomes. It's kinda like the difference between calling the cops and having the kid hauled off and going with the kid to turn himself in for illegal possession of pot. Ends up in the same place, but how it's handled is quite different. Stosh

But he didn't because he pretty much agreed with me. I also called another boy a slug because he didn't do anything, when his dad (former SM) was standing nearby. I did it three weeks in a row and the boy walked out of the meeting the first two times. If it is expected that a boy develop leadership skills to be functional in his life and when it doesn't happen, then he has failed at the task. This is a boy that has been told repeatedly over the years how great he has been doing in everything he does. Well, he hasn't shown it to the level of an Eagle Scout and he is fully aware of it so I wasn't telling him anything that he didn't already know. I as a BSA leader I am responsible for assisting young boys to become young men. When that doesn't happen, in spite of all that I do, then it's time to call a spade a spade and quit with the self-esteem soothing of his ego. Only through adversity is he going to build self-confidence. He screwed up, identify the problem and work on it. If he chooses not to, then not only did he fail at the task, but he has choosen to be a failure. Only when one overcomes their failings do they become stronger and more self-confident. By the way, the "slug" boy is finishing up his Eagle Project as we speak, will age out in January, is already asking to be an ASM, is signed up for basic leadership training this spring and Wood Badge next fall after his stint as 3rd ASM for a Centennial Jamboree contingent next summer. Hand me my head anytime. Just make sure there's just reason for it. I find that being honest with this kids is important and in most cases appreciated by both the boy and his parents. As far as rank advancement goes, I don't really care what patch he's wearing on his pocket or whether or not there's a POR patch on his sleeve. If I have boys demonstrating leadership and functioning in their responsibilities, I'm happy. I have had tenderfoot patrol members showing more leadership than their First Class PL. They correct this on their own and in their own ways. I'm not the only one out there that knows who's achieving and who isn't. There are not adult rules out there that monitor this process either. If the patrol wants a tenderfoot to replace their first class PL, it's a done deal. End of discussion. As long as one fulfills their responsibility there's no reason to make any changes. Now that you mention it, it is rather strange that after 40 years of working with youth, no parent/adult has ever felt it necessary to hand me my head. Stosh Stosh

We have a unique situation in our location. 2 packs cross over their Webelos after their Blue-Golds and have a special "rule" for those boys to continue through the Pinewood Derby activity and still be Cubs. However the third pack waits until after the summer to cross over their Webelos. Thus we have an influx of new boys twice a year, once in early spring and once in early fall. For this reason, the "recruiting" process is an all-time job. Just when they get their feet on the ground, a new group comes in and there's not much breathing room in the process. One way or the other would be nice, but we are adapting to the situation we are faced with. Stosh

I guess it's just a difference in leadership and discipline styles. The results will probably be the same, but how one reaches the end point varies. Yes, some scouts will decide not to return in order to insure the safety of the younger scouts, some may stay and become good scouts, but when all is said and done, I always ask myself if I have done my best for everyone concerned or did I just pass the problem off to someone else to deal with. To me it's a conscious decision I make to be responsible for all the scouts, not just those who behave. I have never in 40 years had to deal with the example of drugs/alcohol or even tobacco given. I am constantly watching and putting my expectations out there long before the problem develops. I guess the worst thing recently I had to address was 2 older boys bringing soda to an outing. I knew they were off in their tent drinking it and they were stupid enough to toss their cans in the patrol garbage. When I posed the question to them about setting a good example, they stood mute. Since then one has quit and the other will be quitting as soon as he gets his Eagle rank. In the mean time they have not brought soda to an outing. The rule was reinforced, the disciple dealt out and two scouts have or are anticipating quitting. I dealt with the problem, but at what price? These two had no interest in BSA leadership development and have chosen alternative paths for their lives. So, who wins in this situation? An infraction occurred, no big deal, the boys learned a lesson in leadership, and they chose to leave because leadership wasn't in their future. Stosh

Excellent advice on all counts especially the cotton. NO COTTON of any sort. Wool and poly all the way! Nutrition is important and some simple guidelines have not been addressed. Drink a lot of water, the air is dryer in cold weather and you loose body fluids faster. Eat a balance of sugars, starches and proteins. Sugars will generate internal heat for the first couple of hours, starches in the middle stage of the night and proteins in the early morning hours. It takes very little time to process sugars into heat, longer for starches and the longest for proteins. Wear a wool stocking cap. Most of your heat loss is through your head because of the amount of blood traveling through it. Your brain is protected by extra blood flow, but it also works as a major radiator. Be sure to take a moderate walk before retiring so your internal heat generation is elevated to heat your sleeping bag for the night. 40+ is not the same as -40, but the dynamics work the same. Stosh

At one time the brown-water US Navy was larger than the blue-water US Navy. I'm thinking the Platte runs right through KS..... Stosh

The opportunity to do so is available. If the boy wishes to do it, they can. If they don't care, they won't. I have had some boys get it in 7-8 months and others take a couple of years. Peer pressure goes a long way in keeping everyone on task, but if they don't care, you're fighting a losing battle. Stosh

My oldest boy in the troop fits this description. He's 15, Life scout, done with his MB's and EP. He's made it known he's going to quit just as soon as he gets his Eagle. He came and wanted me to sign off on his project. I asked him if by my signing it means he's quitting? He all but said yes. I said good, because he has quit caring, showed very little if any leadership and was not a good role model for my other scouts to follow for the past year. I got the deer in the headlight look. His dad was just a couple of feet away when I said it and said nothing. His dad is an Eagle with palms and is my ASM. I told the boy with his 4.2 GPA, success in sports, and all the other things he's done he's suceeded, but in scouting he's been a failure. Self-esteem is built through a series of successes and having everyone tell you how great you are, but self-confidence is built though a series of failures and what you do to pull yourself back together. I congratulated him on his first major step towards self-confidence and wished him luck. He still has to do the EBOR and a major impact on that would be a SM recommendation. I asked him what I should honestly say in my recommendation for him. He stood in silence and didn't say anything. I said, Okay, I can stand silence too. I then signed his paper and walked away. The ball is in court. This was two weeks ago and he did come back to the meeting this past week. I'm hoping some of the discussion might have made an impact. Time will tell. Stosh