Stosh

There's a lot of variables out there that make a recommendation impossible. I am 59 years old and find that when the temps drop into the 20's my zero bag isn't enough so it is supplemented with a couple of wool blankets. I always sleep in poly-lined wool underwear and have a wool stocking cap on as well. Wrap in the wool blanket BEFORE getting into the bag so it doesn't slide off in the middle of the night. Be sure to have a good closed-foam pad underneath along with a vapor barrier of some sort (i.e. plastic sheet) Last time I went in severe conditions I had wool underwear (including socks); wrapped in a wool blanket; used a wool cap; did the pad/sheet thingy and borrowed a -20 bag. It was great and the temperature dropped to zero. If you're from Hawaii, these precautions may not work for you, but if you're from WI or MN, you might get away with it having been acclimated to the weather before you leave. Stosh

I'm a firm believer in a "modified" NSP system. But with that said, the PL is not a new scout unless the patrol insists on it and commits to working with him. Of course these situations require a strong TG and cooperating Instructor to assist the boy with his duties. Mixed patrols cause all kinds of age/skill differences that both hold back the older boys from taking on more advanced activities and often times overwhelm the new scout who's trying to get advancement while keeping up with his patrol partners. This mentoring/coaching of younger scouts is fantastic in the ideal sense, but in a practical sense often goes lacking. A good TG/PL combo who really want to do the job right can out-pace any mixed patrol situation in giving appropriate attention to like-minded boys as they begin their adventure in scouting. It is always recommended to the NSP that they seek an older boy from the troop that they would like to ask to be their PL. Often times it's the boy that has gone out and recruited the NSP that they select because they have bonded with him in the recruiting process. Our leadership in the patrols is by consensus/assignment by the SM. We have no "elections" or "terms". If a boy wants the job and he is function in his duties he stays there as long as he wishes, or until the patrol decides otherwise and to date, they have yet to replace a PL that is doing a good job for them. Stosh

The SM can also assign a project for the boy to do to fulfill his POR while he is waiting out his time. I always find it difficult to justify holding back someone with such rules. If some hot-shot boy transfers in, why wait to use his skills in the troop? Stosh

about 60 Sorry I'm so late with my response. Stosh

I guess it all depends on what kind of "leader" one wishes to promote for this boy. First of all he cares about doing a good job and this is the first requirement of a good leader. However the method chosen for him is delegation, a recipe for disaster for a newbie. Of course is buddies aren't going to do anything. Why should they. If they sit around long enough some adult will take over and things will be back on their schedule, adult led. Instead, have the PL boy do ALL the "work". Teach him how to teach, how to take care of others, and once he excells at that, all his buddies will catch on that his advancement and stardom is something they have taken a pass on and are left behind. If this takes off, I'm betting within 3-5 months the other boys will be clamoring to get to teach and not have the PL be the only one that gets the perks. The PL will be one step ahead of the others in developing skills to be a great PL, a fantastic TG, Instructor and eventually an SPL that takes care of his boys. They will follow and once the boy demonstrates leadership success by example, the others WILL FOLLOW that as well! This PL is trying to develop skills to motivate others. It isn't going to work, these boys need to be motivated from within, not one of their own. They are motivated at this point only by someone that can "punish" them for not doing what they are told. But once they see their PL getting all the attention and succeeding at what he's doing, getting all the training and accolades, the others will wake up. Be sure that when the boy starts out, he should not be responsible for discipline of his boys, only their education. Have an ASM sit in on his training sessions so he can offer up suggestions after the session and maintain order while he is teaching. The ASM also is a little of a cheerleader, comfort blanket for the boy as he spreads his wings. There's nothing worse for a group of boys that one of them gets singled out for special attention and the others get left sitting on their thumbs. One of their main goals right now is to insure none of their group gets such attention, especially the guy that got stuck with the PL patch. Stosh

Just when one think's it's okay to go into the water... WHAM! My boys just set a new record for stupid. Older patrol, PL only has his EBOR to finish up on get his Eagle and quit. He's 16 and expressed this to me as his plan. The boys in his patrol are all aspiring to be leaders but haven't a clue. They have all finished TLT. At last weekend's outing they skipped breakfast, packed their tents away wet and called a parent (on a cell phone that was not allowed) that came out and picked them up. All because the younger patrol was taking too much time with a Dutch oven breakfast and waiting for the tents to dry out before packing. The NSP PL is 17 and is finishing up his EP and will Eagle and age out this January. The last thing I saw was a pack line of gear and tents thrown in a pile. I went to the bathroom to clean up for breakfast and when I returned they are gone. The other adult didn't see them leave either. My NSP PL "thinks" they have may gone home. 30 minutes later the NSP is packed up (dry) and heading out. I looked for them, but they were gone before I was able to locate them. I still don't know which parent picked them up, but I know it wasn't my ASM because I promised him I'd get his two boys home because he had a conflict on Sunday a.m. and couldn't do it himself. None of the boys from that patrol that attended the campout came to the troop meeting on Monday. (At least in that respect they were pretty smart.) I tried to count up the number of "rules" that were broken and am still counting. So far I've addressed this issue with the PL's father just to get him up to speed on the facts of the issue (previous SM and Eagle Scout himself, now my ASM). He was unaware of what his boys had done (PL and a patrol member were both his sons). He was as surprised as I was that his boys would have done this. Should be interesting the next couple of months. Stosh

Welcome to the forum! Like your son, I started camping when I was young (4 years old). I never got beyond Bear in Cub Scouts (4 years) and 2nd Class in Boy Scouts (4 years). One of the biggest problems I had as a child in the scouting program was the lack of trained adult leadership. Like your son, by the time I got half way through Cubs I had racked up more camping, outdoor cooking, and hiking than most Eagle Scouts of today. Even as I sit here today, I have camped 3 out of the past 4 weekends. My boys can't keep up with me. But I make the opportunity available. As SM and CA, I have all the training from Cub Basics up to Wood Badge. Along with your boy, take the time to train and grow gradually. It'll be a good experience for both of you. Your boy has the potential to help the other boys get excited about what he already knows, but remember, they lack the opportunity and experience. Here's where you come in. Welcome to the adventure of a lifetime. Stosh

In the 10 years that I've had a Venturing Crew, I have never had anyone inquire into the awards/advancement program. With the Crew focused on its interest area, there is really nothing there that catches their interest in doing anything other than the focus interest of the group. We also do not have much to do with pres/vice-pres/sec/treas either. On the other hand we have some boys interested in leadership development which they acquire through the hobby, not BSA. 6 of 7 Boy Scouts that joined up finished their Eagles through their troops as is expected by our Crew. People not BSA registered to begin with are not expected to earn Boy Scout rank. We are a tight-knit group with very little if any organization or program other than our interest focus. Stosh

Our boys wishing to advance in POR will recruit 7 new scouts however they wish to do so. They are the PL that trains them and gets them up to FC. He has SPL, TG and Instructor assistance in this process. The responsibility of the advancement falls on the PL. If two patrols are needed because of a major influx of new scouts, each takes 5-7 boys and runs the show for that patrol. This may mean that each patrol may be working on a different requirement for advancement at the same time. Each PL does what's best for his patrol. It causes a few tense situations for the TG's and Instructors, but that's what their job is. If the PL wishes to "move on" to other patrols or to go back and bring in a new crop of new scouts he may do so at his discretion. If the PL is planning on that he can train his APL to take over then. What the boys have been doing is rotating the APL position around amongst themselves so the PL has an opportunity to work with each one on their leadership and not just their advancement. A well trained APL may wish to move on as well and or take on a NSP once he's finished up with FC. There are no rules or regs dictating this process. It is also allowable in our troop that if 6-8 new scouts come in they can pick a PL from the older scouts or one of their own members. This may pose a greater commitment on the TG and Instructors, but like I said, that's their job to handle what the patrols decide. One does not need to hold any rank to be a PL. Patrols that have done this struggle more than those that opt for an older boy or one that has been recruited by an older more experienced boy. PL's serve as long (or as short) as their patrols dictate. How and when PL's are selected is determined by the patrol members. If a PL isn't doing his job, he can be replaced in a heartbeat. An older scout that works well with boys younger than him may in fact serve that patrol for many years if the patrol decides to hang together as a group and wants to keep him on as PL. Stosh

Alassa Eruvande, First of all, welcome to the virtual campfire. I am a Venturing Crew advisor for Civil War/WW II reenacting. We have been operational now for about 10 years and are extremely safe in all that we do. It is known that this can be a dangerous hobby and we realize that and take "over-the-top" precautions in training and establishing safety standards for our personnel and the personnel standing anywhere near them. We have walked off the field of a reenactment because the boys and leaders became uncomfortable with a situation that developed that was becoming unsafe for our standards. Having been in contact with Irving, it has been approved that whatever is deemed safe by the hobby is acceptable for the Venturing Crew to pursue. Yes, all the boys have Hunter's Safety certification and must be re-tested annually (or any time we see an infraction of safety standards). A person (Crew member or reenacting adult on the field) can be removed from the event immediately upon seeing a safety infraction that threatens themselves or anyone else around them. I hope this calms your fears, but it does point out that G2SS is not without reason but offers up a general basis for overall safety of our boys. I am an administrative assistant to the staff of the general manager of a multi-national, mega $$'s corporation. One of the staff members is the Safety Manager. I do know OSHA and its importance, and one of my three required rules in my troop #1 is Safety First!!!! I hope this eases your mind. However, I do sell/recommend military assault rifles to children on the side (well, actually I sell it them to parents who are buying them for their children.) Stosh

Here's the first scenerio: As WEBELO's my boys: canoed out to a island with no facilities. Cleaned out a camp site, put up a tent/spent two nights, cooked all meals on an open fire, went fishing and played in the canoes and swam in shallow water around the beach area. Kids had a blast! This was our final outing with the den before they crossed-over into Boy Scouts. This was their reward for all the boys who had worked really hard to get their AOL. Sounds like a G2SS nightmare, doesn't it? But every boy had their dad with them, and I as Den Leader had an extra registered adult and 2 seasoned Boy Scouts there on hand to help out. The Webelos were expected to do all the "work" and dads and others were there just to help. The boys did ask me to do the steaks because they didn't want to ruin them. The Saturday night meal was: Steak, baked potatoes (wrap in foil toss on coals), corn on the cob (leave on husks, toss on coals), and cobbler (toss in Dutch oven, toss on coals). As it turned out, it was probably one of my more memorable outings in my whole Scouting career because these boys were SO excited about going out and having that much fun. My dad's all appreciated it because it marked for them the "end" of their direct involvement with their boys one-on-one in Scouting and now the boy was crossing-over and would now be working on striking out on one's own in Boy Scouting. We had a nice discussion on this around the campfire on Saturday night of that activity. Second scenerio? Without a RangeMaster, have the boys load a fully functional gun, which they kept in their tents the night before, with 65 grains of black powder (open and exposed), stand behind someone, while putting the barrel over the shoulder of that person, aim at other people and pull the trigger. OMG! The G2SS Police just sucked all the air out of the room! Stosh

The popcorn fundraiser would be helpful in assisting the boys. Some troops allow for boys to have personal accounts from which they can draw funds to pay for trips, etc., but one has to be careful of this practice so as to not be laundring money. I would suggest that if the troop wishes to invest in uniforms because they are in an area of low income, they could use troop funds to purchase cheap uniforms off of E-Bay, or have them donated by older scouts so that for maybe 10-cents a year they can rent one to use. This way it also assists in the boys who are growing out of their uniforms and having to buy new all the time. When I suggested the troop be a fully uniformed troop, I made available uniforms for rock-bottom prices and buy and resell at my cost back to the boys. I target $15/pants, $10 shirts, $5 for belts. The only other cost is patches. There are a number of ways the troop and the boys can be Thrifty. Be creative, be vigilant and if the boys get out and hussle their popcorn sales and other fundraisers, there is no reason why Scouting can't be very inexpensive for the boys, if not free. I know of one boy in my former troop that raised enough money to completely pay for his Sea Base trip by selling in a rural area. The urban boys didn't do as much even with less travel time between homes. If you have 6 boys, that means 4 tents for a camp out. Target the cost, put up a chart and have the boys go at it. Make a game of it. Let them pick out the tents so they have an ownership in the process. Then work on cook gear, fly, etc. Keep a uniform closet on the side and be diligent in getting the boys out into the field. Keep food costs low, and buy good stuff. Don't have the boys spending extra for individually wrapped food items, shop the bargains and teach your boys that just because they don't have a lot of money, they can't still have fun. Plan day hikes with a lunch packed from home. Nice outing, no cost! Do bike hikes with a lunch packed. Nice outing, no cost! Do a service project for the community, pack a lunch, no cost! (nice visibility when those same uniforms that were cleaning the park show up selling popcorn a few weeks later.) Do food drives for the community (low income area) and have the boys out there being visible. You'd be surprised how much the community notices such things and appreciates it and will do what they can to assist in making sure the boys have the opportunity to continue. Welcome to the forum. Stosh

"Personally, I'd like to see 2 to 3 NSP's, but know from experience how unweildy that can be as the adult in charge of the program." Sounds like you're not going to burn out any time soon. Stosh

Forget the insurance, ask yourself will everyone on the roof be required to wear a fall-protection harness? Shingling? Eye protection? Hearing protection? gloves? Lifing heavy loads or loads capable to falling from above? Hard hats? It may be OSHA required, but as a volunteer "you don't have to comply?" Yeh right, in the hands of a good lawyer, you're toast! Remember negligence can be defined in many different ways once it hits the courtroom. I'm not trying to throw cold water on a worthwhile project, but due diligence is more important than insurance. My latest Eagle project provided ALL OF THESE ITEMS for ALL "WORKERS". All chainsaw operators needed extra protective armor as well and all he was doing was cleaning up a park! Just curious... how tall does the climbing wall have to be before hardhat, gloves and safety line are required? Then ask yourself, how tall is the roof? Taking care of your people is part of the "showing leadership". Stosh OOOoooohhhh. A triple whammy. Sorry about that... Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

Being in charge and doing the work are two entirely different animals. This is why SM's burn out and there are other adults crawling all over the boys. Why not have a FC PL for every NSP and a functional TG and Instructor to help out. One can have 3-4 NSP's and just add more TG's and Instructors as needed. Never do what a boy can do! Boy-led, patrol-method, right from the git go. And if these boys all want to stick together and have an ECOH on the same day, I say go for it! Each patrol should be it's own little "family" of buddies with a common interest and goal. Other scouts are there to help them with their interests and goals. Stosh

Congratulations!!!! Why is it we are more focused on always underestimating the ability of the boys to do something bad, but we never attempt to estimate the abilities of the boys doing something good? I love it when the boys come through and bust the myths/assumptions of all the adults! Stosh

I think it is more important that the Webelos boys learn to cook on an open campfire with all it's dangers, rather than using a propane stove which is remarkably similar to the one I use at home every day. ??? I don't know when I first started cooking, but I do know that my very first activity as a Boy Scout (I was still wearing my CS uniform) was to hike out to a selected site, make a cook fire, cook a meal and hike back. I remember putting the screws to my mom so I got steak, baked potato and carrots for my meal. I cooked it all up in my old mess kit that I had been using for many years previously. By the time I got to Scouts there was no such thing as propane stoves, maybe a white gas or two, but we all learned on wood. I was fortunate to have an outdoors family so I got to cook on wood fires long before I ever got to Boy Scouts. When I did Webelos, we camped, cooked, and had a blast whenever we got the chance. Out of the 7 Webelos boys I had, they were not "over exposed" to such activities so that they were bored as Boy Scouts and instead 6 of them went on to Eagle. One of the little fellas was really upset with the fire-building because he could build a fantastic fire lay, but couldn't start it... Because his mother told him he couldn't play with matches. I told him it was okay, but he still couldn't figure out how to get the book matches to work. He's now an Eagle, just finishing up a tour in Afgahnistan. I'm thinking he turned out okay. Get out there and do some scouting and if that means hyping up the Webelos so that they cross-over excited - so be it. Stosh

I have two people who are interested in WB but will not be able to take it because the "weekend" isn't really the weekend. One is a teacher by profession and can't take 2 Fridays off and the other is a student who can't get off for the same reason. I checked the whole region around us and no council offers a 3 weekend (real weekend) program or a full week in the summer when people can take the time off. It's too bad there are good people out there who are taking a pass on some excellent training because of logistics and not program. Stosh

The US Flag Code is for civilians so they can properly display the US flag, buntings, and other national symbols. The military has its own code. Thus we are discussing apples and oranges with the flag issue. A simple solution to this whole problem would be to return the flag to above the right pocket where it once was. Then it could be displayed correctly without some mythical explanation as to why the military displays the flag backwards to civilian standards. Stosh

Fund raising does NOT have to be part of an Eagle Project. I had one boy survey military tombstones for the Veteran's Administration and report on their condition. He then applied for 30+ new stones which the VA provides free for the veterans. He was not expected to even install them, the sextons of the cemeteries are responsible for that. A lot of work, a lot of planning, a lot of coordination, a lot of follow-up, but no fund raising. He did the job well enough to make the front page of the second section of the state-wide newspaper. Stosh

Mike, I think you have done well to summarize the issue. I think the way you have resolved some of these issues is spot on. Often we get boys who loved Cub's but aren't at all interested in the deeper challenges of Boy Scouting. Maybe their father was an Eagle scout and their goal is to get their boys to the same level, but the boy would prefer being a violin player in the orchestra over being at a campfire. Sometimes as the boy matures, his interests change, but the troop program can't accommodate it. There are some boys that are overly motivated and move on quickly into a strong Scouting career. So that means we are left with sorting out the boys and doing the best with what we are dealt. One is going to win some, some we're going to lose. For those who don't think it's working, here's a clip from an email I received this morning. It relates not to the average BS troop, but to my Venturing Crew which specializes in Reenacting for older boys! "Dear Capt. B_____, If I were to list all the reasons why I am interested in the Civil War we would both be old by its completion.However I can sum it up by saying that The Civil War was for me what dinosaurs were for every one else when I was a lad. When I got a little older my grandfather took me to an archery shoot where I met my best friend. He shared my fascination for the war between the states together we formed an unofficial organization called: The Cross Rivers Infantry Division. Our group never got very big, to date it is only 7 members strong, but every year we'd put on our hats and grab our cap guns. Basically all we did was build fortifications and practice the various commands, actually we once made a Gatling Gun out of card board tubes and a noise maker, but its really quite enjoyable. When I moved to W____ S_____ in sixth grade I marked my calender for a date three years in the future because I had heard about the program you did with the eight graders. I could go on, the first reenactment I saw, my trip to Gettysburg and Antietam, movies, books, and well every thing you could think of really. But I should give you my contact information. (personal info edited out) I can't wait for the new season, I'm already looking around for jobs and equipment. Hopefully see you in November. -D________ P.S. How do ranks work as far as promotion and dutys?" So remember, these are the "older boys" that Scouting seems to be losing! So where are the boys that feel the same way about being outdoors and camping? They are there, what are we doing to provide them with opportunities and programs that fit their excitement? This gentleman represents one of two recruits we garnered up at our latest local reenactment. It also reflects a long discussion I had with one of our non-local reenactors who would like to establish Venturing Crews in 4 other locations within our state and how our Crew can assist in that process. When we make opportunities, we also have to have a program that meets the needs of those wishing to take advantage of them. A ton of boys and girls turned out for our reenactment, but I picked up two, not because I was recruiting, but because the program sold itself and excited them to act on their dreams. This is what all scouting should be doing regardless of age. We do well with FYFC and fair with Life 2 Eagle, but how many programs are designed to meet the needs of boys "Life AFTER Eagle?" When we drop the ball, so do the boys. Stosh

First impressions are lasting impressions. I may not agree with it, but it still holds sway. It may not indicate a whole lot to the world in general, but if I'm applying for a janitorial job, I still show up in a suit and tie for the interview. Is the suit more important than the job skills? Probably not, but human nature is human nature and if one wishes to communicate a sense of importance, they have to abide by these unwritten "rules". In reality, these boys don't need uniforms at all, but if one is going to make a statement to the world in a press release photo, maybe a complete job bodes better than a half-hearted attempt. It kinda says that they did "good enough" to show the average Joe that they are scouts, but it doesn't say they are the cream of the crop, which they in fact are, but don't show it Just my opinion, your mileage may vary. Stosh

I have gathered up a ton of information from a variety of different posts in the different areas. I don't presume that I have all the answers to all the issues, but by listening in on how everyone else is doing things I find it great to use their ideas and try them out for my troop/patrols. While there are some ideas I don't agree with, I have tried them out as well assuming that I might be on the wrong track. Even these have shown to be beneficial at times. What works for me may not work for others, and what is working for others may not work for me, but this forum allows for a ton more options in my bag of tricks, many of which I hadn't considered and should. To thank everyone that has offered up something that has helped my boys would take a whole lot more time than I can afford, so simply assume that if you've posted anything at any time on this forum, I probably have benefitted by it along the way and appreciate your input. Keep the posts coming! Stosh

MORE TWO-MINUTE MYSTERIES by Donald J. Sobol, Scholastic Book Services, New York, Toronto, London, Auckland, Sidney, Tokyo, 1971 Published by Scholastic Book Services, a division of Scholastic Magazines, Inc. Sounds like there might be a previous book too. Stosh

Beavah, I'll take a shot at it and basically agree with you. There is nothing wrong with designing a program that could possibly entail getting FYFC. We have a NSP and a FC PL. That means with the five days of summer camp (patrol cooking in site) and a spring and fall camporee every boy will have an opportunity to do patrol cooking (7 boys, 21 meals). A mess hall camp would cancel out this program for troops going to such camps. Obviously for those troops it won't work without five extra one day outings. So the "possibility" still remains for the cooking requirement. If the patrol goes out on a one-day hike they could do their cook one meal over a wood fire. No problem Maybe they could do a individually cooked Sunday breakfast at a camporee all at the same time, that would work too. Each one of the requirements if planned AND attended by the boys it's possible. Now, with that said, is it probable for some of the boys? Yep, for all the boys, nope. Not all boys learn at the same speed and some with learning disabilities aren't going to be able to do it, but even then there's a possibility one could be surprised. If the boys work on knots only at patrol meetings, then they're probably not going to master them without extra practice outside of scout time. First aid? Same thing. A motivated scout may take non-scout time to master the skill that was only demonstrated at the patrol meeting. But it's possible. Lashing? Same thing The key to each one of these is the fact that the program or curriculum is not the stumbling block, it's the motivation and interest of the scout that determines whether or not he finishes up the first year. That variable is not predictable and should not be the criteria for measuring success/failure of the program/curriculum. I'll agree that the opportunity for FYFC can be easily designed. But I don't think that most scouts at age 11 have the proper motivation and skills to follow along diligently enough to succeed at it. Some will, most won't. Given this observation, at 1 yr, 6 mo's, more scouts will be successful at it and at 2 years most scouts will be successful. Gee, I've known scouts at the end of 3-4 years in scouting didn't get first class for some reason or the other. I spent 4 years in Boy Scouts and only made 2nd Class due to a poor program/opportunity. As an avid outdoors person, I just couldn't figure out how I accomplished so little in scouts. Within 2 years I rose to squadron command in Civil Air Patrol. Different opportunity, different personalities, same kid. It takes a combination of program, opportunity and motivation to make it work. Getting all three right at the same time MAY get the boys to FYFC, but even then every kid is different. Stosh